Hi!
Yesterday I had some kind of "weird" Syrcus Tower run.
I'm only a ilvl 93 Paladin but the other Paladin had gear between ilvl 50 and 90, the Warrior had ilvl 70 to 90. I initially thought that would make me MT, but well, even though the other tanks wouldn't begin any of the fights, I obviously was wrong. xD
There was no problem at all with the Warrior, but the other Paladin, I don’t know how he did it, managed to always steal aggro from me in the boss fights.
I didn't do anything different than usual. The only difference was that I had just changed my ilvl 70 Darklight Ring to a Weathered Noct Ring (yes, I also had it equipped xD).
I had no problem with being OT, not at all. The problem was that the other Paladin really died a lot and when he died, of course I had aggro again. When he was raised, he immediately got it back (don't know if he used Provoke) and always lured the bosses through the whole room. WTF??? He wouldn't even listen to anything.
The others, especially the melee DPS were so annoyed and said the tanks were a joke and useless.
What the hell did I do wrong that he could take hate from me so easily? Does any of you have an idea?
What else should I do on bosses than try to build aggro as fast as I can? It's not that you have so many different options what abilities to use as a Paladin.
And yes, I had Shield Oath on. Even though it felt as if it wasn't on at all.
In the beginning it all worked so well but in the first boss battle I died because both our healers were frozen at the same time and then died. I did reapply Shield Oath after being raised though (and after we wiped because the other tanks didn't automatically have aggro after I died) because I heard there could be a bug with it being casted automatically since the patch. The only thing I can think of is that it really was a bug because it was all so weird.
Other Paladin stealing aggro
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07-25-2014, 05:15 PMLimoniaOther Paladin stealing aggro
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07-25-2014, 05:37 PMsilvach
If he got the full aggro just after reviving it means he must have used provoke. There is nothing you can do if the provokes RoH. He probably thought using provoke every time it's available is good way to handle the boss (??). That's why we discuss this kind of "newbie" players in other topics - they should not be playing tanks and we should not be forgiving. Next time just blacklist him or kick him. This guy was there not knowing what he is suppose to do.
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07-25-2014, 06:40 PMKrindor
Like Silvach said he must have been using provoke. But what stance was he in? I've personally had more trouble maintaining aggro as a WAR with a PLD OT in Sword Oath than one with Shield Oath, also what accessories did he have? STR or VIT? While I don't know PLD fully with your ilvl difference you should have no problem getting aggro back after he grabbed it, as a WAR I always get aggro back even though someone used provoke as I usually have higher ilvl and STR accessories.
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07-25-2014, 06:48 PMsilvachWell, the STR may help but the ilvl in weapon does the biggest difference. With that difference (ilvl55 to ilvl90) it's impossible to lose agro without OT using provoke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krindor
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07-25-2014, 06:51 PMAshkendor
He was probably doing Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Provoke > Rage of Halone. That comboed RoH has an incredible amount of enmity on it, and it's landing right after the Provoke shifts him to the top of the enmity list. It's a great way to quickly handle a tank swap mechanic, or to troll the ever-living hell out of your entire alliance... >.<
As to how he was HOLDING aggro against you, that I can't really be sure on. -
07-25-2014, 06:58 PMKrindorI'm might be blind but I don't see OP mentioning the ilvl of the weapon and the other tank might have aimed for Curtana Zenith first meaning that they have the same weapon, and the 50-70 str difference if the other PLD was using STR accessories can show a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by silvach
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07-25-2014, 07:09 PMLimoniaI COULD have gotten aggro back for a few seconds (guess he really always used Provoke) but after he stole aggro from me a few times I gave up because I wasn't that childish to fight with him for aggro. He was running around like crazy and I didn't want to make the melee's life even harder by spinning the enemy around even more if I had gotten aggro back while he was running. >_<Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
I already felt bad enough after being called a joke because the other players didn't realize that it wasn't completely my fault.
And no one from his party said anything EVER (at least not in alliance chat or shout), the only people complaining were from my party and to them all of the tanks sucked. It was a silent alliance anyway, most of them didn't even say hi.
I don't know what accessories he had, I only remember the level of his equipment pieces.
He had the same weapon I have though (Curtana Zenith).
But he had at least one AF equipment piece, rest darklight and some myth gear and level 60 - 90 accessoires.
And thanks for the tip with Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Provoke > Rage of Halone. ^^ -
07-25-2014, 07:14 PMRiepah
I had a similiarly strange case once, slightly reversed. A different PLD with a Novus weapon constantly tried to steal aggro from me (Atma weapon), and only managed to pull even. He would never do anything besides trying to get aggro from the boss, although he never initiated the fight - and for some reason, despite his superior gear, he couldn't quite get it off of me. He had Shield Oath on and it definitely seemed like he was set on getting aggro, for some reason he just didn't do a very good job at it.
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07-25-2014, 08:00 PMOoshima
Depending on your server culture, certain servers have some unspoken rules. For example for Japanese players, Alliance B is the unspoken MT alliance in ST. That might have been a reason why another tank is constantly trying to take aggro from you, because he might have been the default MT regardless of gear.
Pros and cons though. I'm in a JP server and this benefits me if I am Alliance B tank. But when I am not, mostly it is just a problem because my WAR is STR built where most other WARs are 60-80 STR less than me and for typical VIT PLDs, the disparity can be over 100STR (most tanks in ST are secondary jobs, including mine. And may not be well geared). Most of the time I am trying NOT to generate aggro at all, lol.
Sometimes I pity the i90ish PLD who have easily 100-130 STR less than my WAR and doesn't have an i110 weapon which my WAR does have (i110 Conquerer).. poor thing I'm not even trying to do anything but I ended up with aggro on straight fights like Xande. -
07-25-2014, 08:10 PMsilvach
Don't pity, turn of Defiance and don't use Butcher's combo.
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07-25-2014, 08:34 PMLimoniaWell, he was in Alliance B but he seems to have been German, no idea if it's normal on his server (he was on Lich) for B to be MT but in the other runs I was in the MT was the one with the best gear or the one who asked to be MT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ooshima
If he thought he was Main Tank he would also have initiated the fights, but he didn't.
As I said, it's absolutely fine for me to be OT, I really don't care. But that guy couldn't even survive 5 hits. He was literately tanking the floor when he didn't use Provoke (well, I didn't see him use Provoke, it was all too chaotic and weird ... but after what I've read here it seems to have been his only option). -
07-26-2014, 12:58 AMAshkendorMy DRG says: bless you, sir. I hate when tanks do this, fighting for aggro and making it so melee don't have a steady flank. I don't understand why, if they don't step up to MT in the first place, tanks later fight for aggro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Limonia
No problem :DQuote:
And thanks for the tip with Fast Blade > Savage Blade > Provoke > Rage of Halone. ^^
Great for swaps like I said, or getting aggro back after a raise.
I don't get why people do this. I think to myself: if you wanted MT, you should've just started the fight, mister...Quote:
Originally Posted by Riepah
So much this. When I'm not MT and not expecting adds, I Sword Oath. If I'm in a situation where I have to swap with a tank significantly less geared than me I just watch my enmity. Hell, I'll autoattack and reduce myself to CoS/Spirits Within if I have to just to avoid the confusion of two tanks jockeying for hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by silvach
Warriors at least have viable combos other than their hate combo. I have... Riot Blade. >.> -
07-26-2014, 01:18 AMAlurwen
I refuse to tank in ST, the way other PLD troll with Provoke is childish. In sword oath using strength accessories for DPS they can't keep threat off me. But then when I try to MT, here come the Provokes out. Give me a break, I only go in with scholar now and clean up on the commendations.
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07-26-2014, 01:20 AMAIexWhy is this story here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alurwen
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07-26-2014, 01:26 AMAlurwenI'm sharing my tanking experience in ST. Other PLD use Provoke when they aren't the MT and the OP is not isolated in his experience. Are you new to forums and how they work?Quote:
Originally Posted by AIex
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07-26-2014, 06:53 AMRhazeCain
The one interesting thought I've seen so far in this thread: What to do if another tank tries to take agro and you want to prevent it? The troll tank scenario.
Provoke is on a long cooldown and only puts the person using it on equal agro - not really ahead. The sequence earlier ending with Provoke > Rage of Halone is a good one. And you can use it too, not just the troll. =)
I'd suggest adding Fight or Flight somewhere in there.
Strength potion is another possibility, though maybe you save it for a later time period when other things on cooldown.
Between fights you could additionally switch in some strength jewelry, as appropriate.
Of course you should already be running weapon with highest damage possible.
Spirits Within, Circle of Scorn, and repeated RoH combo of course. Especially when under Fight or Flight or Str potion. No messing around with Fracture or Riot Blade or other randomness.
If you start talking Warrior, then Unchained/Berserk > Provoke > Butcher's Block is the big agro grab. Maim/Storm's Eye should also be up for max effect. Probably on the SE-BB-BB pattern, not SE-BB-SE-BB. All other things being equal, I'd expect a warrior to win an agro battle if played optimally.
Best case is that the troll takes agro only briefly, then it comes back to you. Yeah it still sucks since that's boss moving. But it sucks less than boss following troll tank around for a while. -
07-26-2014, 10:38 AMdramamineRiot Blade chews through your TP if you can't cut it with flash/stoneskin/something else like that, but you get ever-so-slightly more DPS (pot increase per gcd from ~180 with halone to ~190 with riot blade), and you get MP to spam stoneskin when the MT's taking a ton of damage. Yeah, it's hard to say RB competes with Storm's Path/Storm's Eye, let alone maim, but you do benefit from making the switch when you OT. I definitely think they need to give the paladin something to make the MP regained from RB a lot more useful as an OT. An expensive group buff of some sort, the ability to res in combat, regen... something along those lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashkendor
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07-26-2014, 10:54 AMRiepahI think your math is off. The Rage of Halone combo gives 1220 potency over 6 GCDs, while the Riot Blade combo amounts to only 1140 potency over 6 GCDs. RoH is 203.3 potency per GCD, RB is 190.Quote:
Originally Posted by dramamine
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07-26-2014, 11:14 AMAshkendorProblem being if there is a gear discrepancy between me and MT, I can't use a full RoH combo as I'll simply tear hate off of them. I end up using Riot Blade and casting Stone Skin on the MT to help the healers a bit. Hell, I've actually used Cover on the MT a few times when they get dangerously low.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riepah
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07-26-2014, 12:13 PMdramamineYou're right, no clue how I wound up getting 540 instead of 610 for the halone combo. I think I read somewhere that RB was better, did some sloppy math in the middle of a battle to verify. I even let the power of suggestion convince me that I was actually doing more DPS with RB in solo content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riepah
So yeah, paladins definitely need something more useful to do with MP. -
07-27-2014, 12:46 PMSynestra
SE should really tweak Oaths lil bit tbh, Shield Oath should be lvl30 skill and Sword Oath lvl40. If they do this then Shield Oath could have added effect that removes enmity from comboes, as its not that fun to hold back as an OT when you and your MT have big gear diffirences. Also Oaths being OGCD would allow better minmax durning fights where you are not tanking boss 100% of time,
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07-27-2014, 01:08 PMPurplePanther
Somewhat unrelated, but I've only had ONE ST run where the tanks aren't trying to fight for aggro. And it's super annoying, in CT, there were so many tanks that there's nothing to do...and now in ST, there's either one tank that tries to do everything, or tanks that focus on nothing but the 'big' pull for the trash or keeps having aggro fights over the bosses. I have no idea what brings out this behavior, but it is super weird and really annoying. I've always been a passive tank, if someone else wants to do it, go for it. But the amount of aggro fighting I've had to do over bosses is unreal.
This is especially bad on Amon. Where the slimes, the snakes and the Kum-Kum (ugh) can wreck havoc. -
07-27-2014, 02:17 PMKamifubuki-YoakesetsuriThat sounds so fake honestly lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Riepah
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07-27-2014, 03:37 PMMaethusXionWhy would you want your tanking stance to remove the enmity+ bonus from your combos? Not to mention that it can be hard enough to keep aggro in pre-40 dungeons as PLD as it is(against equal/better geared DPS)...Quote:
Originally Posted by Synestra
Unless you ment that SWORD OATH should remove the extra enmity generation
But to the topic, with CT on the EU Center it seems to be norm that a tank from B is MT unless otherwise agreed before the fight. If I'm MT and another tank steals aggro, I take it back once and if he does it again I let him keep it. Especially at Bone Dragon... -
07-28-2014, 12:12 AMAshkendorI don't get the "Rawr tank epeen" thing either, seriously. I've had runs where the three tanks are so busy fighting over the "boss," whether it be an actual boss or just a big trash mob, that the other mobs wipe entire parties. It's stupid. I tend go for MT simply because I'm pretty well geared (who doesn't want a well geared tank as MT, right?), but if someone else fights me for it and successfully pulls aggro off me, I back off and go play with some adds. It's not that hard to do. I really don't get why people want to go fight for MT, honestly; if you wanted it, you had the chance to initiate the fight yourself. Fighting for MT long-term only hurts the alliance in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by PurplePanther
The absolute worst boss for this was Bone Dragon in Labyrinth of the Ancients; you could have tanks fighting over MT AND tanks fighting over add placement. A lot of them act like it's some sort of weird contest to get more skeletons to the ends of the platforms than all of the other tanks. Meanwhile, DPS are beating on the adds while they run around like crazy so they end up dying next to the dragon anyway... >.>
There's less tank epeenery in ST than there was in CT simply by virtue of there being fewer tanks. -
07-28-2014, 12:15 AMRiepahIt isn't, though. What reason could I have to make something like that up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamifubuki-Yoakesetsuri