If locked gear progression is still valued, why do sands/oil still flow free in Hunts

Earlier on today's live letter Yoshi-P was asked a question concerning the Unidentified Tome and the oils and whether or not they should be separate from the actual CT gear in terms of loot lockout:

Q7: Currently, there are many players that enter the Syrcus Tower to obtain an unidentified Allagan tomestone or oil of time. Due to this reason, there are a lot of equipment drops that go to waste. Is there any chance we can split the weekly lock out for the tomestone and oil?

A7: We currently do not have any plans of doing so since both the upgrade items and equipment may be an upgrade for a player.

So if he feels this way then why are people allowed to get said upgrade items at basically an unlimited pace per week from hunts? I am not against those items being obtained from hunts, but there really should be a limit if both CT and the Second Coil of Bahamut retain their own loot lockouts until Patch 2.4 - otherwise, where is the incentive to do other content besides hunts as they stand right now? The rewards remain too good, including the myth/soldiery drops, and SE has been slow to act.

At least he didn't say they were 'working as intended' I guess.

You still have to put time and effort into hunts. It's not a one run and done got my loot kind of deal. It takes a lot more effort to hunt 750 seals than to run 1 Syrcus Tower. I hope you can appreciate the difference in effort.

Add to that the difficulty of dealing with hundreds of other players and people pulling early. You can literally spend hours and get all of 50 points sometimes. The level of time commitment and ease of access is very different.

It's not like we go out, kill 1 mob, get a sand.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

You still have to put time and effort into hunts. It's not a one run and done got my loot kind of deal. It takes a lot more effort to hunt 750 seals than to run 1 Syrcus Tower. I hope you can appreciate the difference in effort.

Add to that the difficulty of dealing with hundreds of other players and people pulling early. You can literally spend hours and get all of 50 points sometimes. The level of time commitment and ease of access is very different.

It's not like we go out, kill 1 mob, get a sand.

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Unless of course that mob is an S and you've been blessed by RNJesus. (Apparently they're easier to get log drops from because it actually rolls three times... and you get a log for EACH success. According to my buddies on Excalibur there are already multiple screenshots of obtaining three logs from one S-rank.)

... but that's an outlier, of course. :D

Your doing something horribly wrong if your getting 50 seals in an hour. Can get more than that in 10 minutes simply afking in town and porting when someone posts a <pos> in linkshell chat then shouting for a group (or joining any of the hunt groups in PF)

Is it more effort than ST? No. More time consuming assuming you get one your 1st run? Yes. More time consuming than it will likely take? No

30% drop rate so will take you several runs on average to even see one. Then you likely have a 1/7 chance of winning (lets assume 1 person in your group is dumb enough to roll on the earlier loot).

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

Your doing something horribly wrong if your getting 50 seals in an hour. Can get more than that in 10 minutes simply afking in town and porting when someone posts a <pos> in linkshell chat then shouting for a group (or joining any of the hunt groups in PF)

Is it more effort than ST? No. More time consuming assuming you get one your 1st run? Yes. More time consuming than it will likely take? No

30% drop rate so will take you several runs on average to even see one. Then you likely have a 1/7 chance of winning (lets assume 1 person in your group is dumb enough to roll on the earlier loot).

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LOL, you must live in a fantasy world where people actually wait for others to arrive before pulling/killing the monsters. Either that, or you're blessed to be on a server that has people that want to help themselves AND others vs. just helping themselves.

If you're only sitting at an outpost or town until the elite mark is announced in party or ls, you're being a selfish leech that should be kicked out of all those.
When I do hunts, I regularly check my party to make sure that they're actually contributing instead of just waiting for the marks to be announced.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

LOL, you must live in a fantasy world where people actually wait for others to arrive before pulling/killing the monsters. Either that, or you're blessed to be on a server that has people that want to help themselves AND others vs. just helping themselves.

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That's exactly what I was thinking. That player clearly doesn't understand just how bad it can be. Especially on a highly populated server. It's bad and Syrcus tower with unlocked sands would be by far faste and with much less headache. Nothing like having my own teammates right there when it spawns so we get the first heads up only to have some group run up before we all gather and kill it.

Also if he were in my party sitting in town I'd boot him from my group. Go out and help or get out you waste of space. You're just leeching off the hard work of others then go on talking about how easy it is.

I think most people missed the point of the thread. It's not that you can get the items from allied seals. It's that there's no limit to how many you can get, except how many seals and logs you can get. Whereas in other content, you ARE limited in how many you can get.

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Originally Posted by ispano

I think most people missed the point of the thread. It's not that you can get the items from allied seals. It's that there's no limit to how many you can get, except how many seals and logs you can get. Whereas in other content, you ARE limited in how many you can get.

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No, I'm in total agreement with this. There should not be an unlimited amount of seals per week. There should be a restriction that allows you enough to get say one sand per week.

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Originally Posted by ispano

I think most people missed the point of the thread. It's not that you can get the items from allied seals. It's that there's no limit to how many you can get, except how many seals and logs you can get. Whereas in other content, you ARE limited in how many you can get.

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Yea, it's a contradiction to be sure. Should have been one sand/oil per week from the get-go. Kinda late now, though.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

That's exactly what I was thinking. That player clearly doesn't understand just how bad it can be. Especially on a highly populated server. It's bad and Syrcus tower with unlocked sands would be by far faste and with much less headache. Nothing like having my own teammates right there when it spawns so we get the first heads up only to have some group run up before we all gather and kill it.

Also if he were in my party sitting in town I'd boot him from my group. Go out and help or get out you waste of space. You're just leeching off the hard work of others then go on talking about how easy it is.

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Actually he's right on the aspect of it being faster/efficient to go through hunts. The thing a lot of people don't do (including myself) is join a LS/FC that is dedicated to elite hunting. Even when you do, you join a party (ideally a full 8-player one). Depending on how many people show up, and if it's a B rank or not, you may not get full credit for the kill, but it's just a slight hindering when you know that within the next 5min, another B/A/S will be up and ready to be killed by your group/LS/FC.

This is all somewhat dependent on your server though. The extremely populated servers will have difficulty with 100+ players going at it 24/7. Others will generally see an average of 50+ players at any given moment, regardless of time, and those will be the ones that likely get frequent max reward yields. For the most part, people really shouldn't be waiting very long for the pull if they want a better chance at the max reward. While it's nice to see that players are being courteous for each other (even if it's just their own LS/FC/Party), the system doesn't really reward you for being overly courteous. Currently, it wants you to just go for the kill when you have the necessary numbers.

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Originally Posted by ispano

I think most people missed the point of the thread. It's not that you can get the items from allied seals. It's that there's no limit to how many you can get, except how many seals and logs you can get. Whereas in other content, you ARE limited in how many you can get.

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Right. It goes against Yoshi-P's established philosophies and makes absolutely no sense when stacked against CT and Coil until 2.4 anyway.

It actually just brings soldier gear on par with where myth gear was in the beginning. Myth and Coil 1 have the same ilevel but soldier was set 10 ilevels below Coil 2. Keep in mind you may be able to get countless oils and sands but you'll very quickly upgrade all your soldiery and be back to being locked behind the weekly soldiery cap for more gear to upgrade. Basically it puts us where we were at at 2.1 launch.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

It actually just brings soldier gear on par with where myth gear was in the beginning. Myth and Coil 1 have the same ilevel but soldier was set 10 ilevels below Coil 2. Keep in mind you may be able to get countless oils and sands but you'll very quickly upgrade all your soldiery and be back to being locked behind the weekly soldiery cap for more gear to upgrade. Basically it puts us where we were at at 2.1 launch.

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Except even Yoshi said that Myth being on par with Allagan was a mistake in one of the letters. It's too early to open the flood gates like this honestly.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

LOL, you must live in a fantasy world where people actually wait for others to arrive before pulling/killing the monsters. Either that, or you're blessed to be on a server that has people that want to help themselves AND others vs. just helping themselves.

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On Excalibur we have people who have capped at 4000 seals on accident because they forgot to spend them. Our hunt community is very good, especially late night.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

It actually just brings soldier gear on par with where myth gear was in the beginning. Myth and Coil 1 have the same ilevel but soldier was set 10 ilevels below Coil 2. Keep in mind you may be able to get countless oils and sands but you'll very quickly upgrade all your soldiery and be back to being locked behind the weekly soldiery cap for more gear to upgrade. Basically it puts us where we were at at 2.1 launch.

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That's all well and good, but then why are there lockouts in CT?

I love how the excuse for keeping coil character locked and not job locked was because they wanted to prevent the number of high lvl items from coming into the world, then they go ahead and do this hunt junk. So what's the excuse now for keeping coil locked?

A new thing they could do is replace the tokens you get from the weekly 3 ex primal quest and replace that with the unidentified tomestone.

Then you could turn those in and get the weapon. Maybe they should take away the soldiery requirement though. That sounds like too much farming.

Maybe they could increase echo to 100% buff in the ex primals though and just turn it on when you enter. I don't feel like wiping so much to get that buff.

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It takes a lot more effort to hunt 750 seals

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It took me 2 hours and I didnt loot any book.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

That's all well and good, but then why are there lockouts in CT?

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Both ST and Coil 2 should just be unlocked at this point. It makes no sense to keep those locked but have Hunts be unlimited. The reason everyone is zerging the Hunts is, well, what else is there to do? Once you've gotten your weekly ST item and done your weekly Coil runs, you're done for the week. So everyone's being funneled towards Hunts right now if they want to do anything at all, but if ST and Coil 2 were unlocked players could do that instead if they wanted to.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Except even Yoshi said that Myth being on par with Allagan was a mistake in one of the letters. It's too early to open the flood gates like this honestly.

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Find me the quote and I'll believe you. If it exists it may have been in reference to them being even pre-2.1. We're in the equivalent of post-2.1. We're still locked by soldier lockout so saying Coil shouldn't be locked is nonsense. CT...again...soldiery lockout keeps i100s coming slowly just means they instaupgrade to i110 if you carry sand or oil around. No lockout on CT would put all your classes in i100+ in a week or two. The hardcore raiders got their i110 in 2.2. Now the next tier of raiders can gear up a bit and challenge Coil 2 for their i115 weps and BiS i110s before Coil 3.

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Originally Posted by Illya

Both ST and Coil 2 should just be unlocked at this point. It makes no sense to keep those locked but have Hunts be unlimited. The reason everyone is zerging the Hunts is, well, what else is there to do? Once you've gotten your weekly ST item and done your weekly Coil runs, you're done for the week. So everyone's being funneled towards Hunts right now if they want to do anything at all, but if ST and Coil 2 were unlocked players could do that instead if they wanted to.

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No, that's backwards. Sands/Oil should be locked from hunts. It's not 2.4 yet with a higher tier out yet. Coil 2 should not be unlocked yet.

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Originally Posted by Illya

Both ST and Coil 2 should just be unlocked at this point. It makes no sense to keep those locked but have Hunts be unlimited. The reason everyone is zerging the Hunts is, well, what else is there to do? Once you've gotten your weekly ST item and done your weekly Coil runs, you're done for the week. So everyone's being funneled towards Hunts right now if they want to do anything at all, but if ST and Coil 2 were unlocked players could do that instead if they wanted to.

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Someone who hasn't really touched Coil 2 may have 1 class fully geared in soldiery with ac ouple of odds and ends. Once they upgrade them all they are back to waiting on soldiery for more gear. OIls and Sands aren't gear they're an upgrade for gear that is behind a 400 tome a week LOCKOUT.

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Originally Posted by Illya

Both ST and Coil 2 should just be unlocked at this point. It makes no sense to keep those locked but have Hunts be unlimited. The reason everyone is zerging the Hunts is, well, what else is there to do? Once you've gotten your weekly ST item and done your weekly Coil runs, you're done for the week. So everyone's being funneled towards Hunts right now if they want to do anything at all, but if ST and Coil 2 were unlocked players could do that instead if they wanted to.

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This. Punishing players who actually don't want to participate in the hunts with lockouts is only stupid at this point.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

Find me the quote and I'll believe you. If it exists it may have been in reference to them being even pre-2.1. We're in the equivalent of post-2.1. We're still locked by soldier lockout so saying Coil shouldn't be locked is nonsense. CT...again...soldiery lockout keeps i100s coming slowly just means they instaupgrade to i110 if you carry sand or oil around. No lockout on CT would put all your classes in i100+ in a week or two. The hardcore raiders got their i110 in 2.2. Now the next tier of raiders can gear up a bit and challenge Coil 2 for their i115 weps and BiS i110s before Coil 3.

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It's not quite the quote i've been looking for, but it is related.

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In patch 2.0 and 2.1, the equipment from the Binding Coil of Bahamut and the equipment you could obtain with Allagan tomestones of mythology were exactly the same, and I think this detracted from players’ motivation.

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Originally Posted by ispano

No, that's backwards. Sands/Oil should be locked from hunts. It's not 2.4 yet with a higher tier out yet. Coil 2 should not be unlocked yet.

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The cat is already out of the bag. Pandora's Box has already been opened. If Squenix removed things from Hunts now there would be rioting in the streets of Eorzea.

The only solution now is to unlock ST and Coil 2, and count it as a lesson learned for future patches.

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Originally Posted by ispano

It's not quite the quote i've been looking for, but it is related.

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He said it somewhere else as well, I'll try and find it.

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Originally Posted by Illya

The cat is already out of the bag. Pandora's Box has already been opened. If Squenix removed things from Hunts now there would be rioting in the streets of Eorzea.

The only solution now is to unlock ST and Coil 2, and count it as a lesson learned for future patches.

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It's too early to unlock them, so no.

Unlocking Second Coil is to early yes. But ST should be unlocked, since the rewards are worse than the stuff you get from hunting.

another way to gain seals will be the best aproach , from frontlines / dungeons / ramuh / bills (need like a 5000% boost lol)

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

No, I'm in total agreement with this. There should not be an unlimited amount of seals per week. There should be a restriction that allows you enough to get say one sand per week.

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Oh please
The only restriction should be how many oil an sand you can get with seals.
Seals itself should keep unrestricted. There are people who also want the new GC gears.

for 750 allied seals you need to kill
- 150 Rabk B
or
- 38 Rank A

if ALL Rank A and B pops in same hours and you kill em all and get full credit = 400 allied seals
then you will have to wait four hours for next pop... of course you wont see em all spawning together, and you wont be able to catch them all

but at best... it's a MINIMUM 4 hours of running + searching + fighting

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Originally Posted by HiPotion

for 750 allied seals you need to kill
- 150 Rabk B
or
- 38 Rank A

if ALL Rank A and B pops in same hours and you kill em all and get full credit = 400 allied seals
then you will have to wait four hours for next pop... of course you wont see em all spawning together, and you wont be able to catch them all

but at best... it's a MINIMUM 4 hours of running + searching + fighting

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You are forgetting the S rank days, which allow people to get quite a bit quickly.

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You still have to put time and effort into hunts. It's not a one run and done got my loot kind of deal. It takes a lot more effort to hunt 750 seals than to run 1 Syrcus Tower. I hope you can appreciate the difference in effort.

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The chances of you going into "one" ST run and coming out with the oil/sand/tome you want is very slim. Not only will what you want usually not drop in the first place, chances are very good that the majority of the rest of your party will be lotting too.

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Originally Posted by ispano

It's too early to unlock them, so no.

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You seem to be missing the part where they're already unlocked in Hunts, and that this activity has proven to be one of the most effective ways of getting them and would actually be more effective than other methods even if those methods were unlocked.

The floodgates are already open as wide as they can go.

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Originally Posted by Krr

You seem to be missing the part where they're already unlocked in Hunts, and that this activity has proven to be one of the most effective ways of getting them and would actually be more effective than other methods even if those methods were unlocked.

The floodgates are already open as wide as they can go.

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Again, it's still too early. I can say it as many times as you want to argue against it. When 2.4 comes, they'll be unlocked. There's a reason the highest end content has these locks. You and others may not like it, but they're there for a reason.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Again, it's still too early. I can say it as many times as you want to argue against it. When 2.4 comes, they'll be unlocked. There's a reason the highest end content has these locks. You and others may not like it, but they're there for a reason.

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Repeat after me:
They are already unlocked via hunts. No functional effective locking currently exists.

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Originally Posted by Krr

Repeat after me:
They are already unlocked via hunts. No functional effective locking currently exists.

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I'm not talking about Sands/Oils. I'm talking about the instances themselves. It's TOO EARLY. There are negatives to unlocking the highest tier of content before the next comes out, which is why they will stay locked until 2.4.

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Originally Posted by ispano

I'm not talking about Sands/Oils. I'm talking about the instances themselves. It's TOO EARLY.

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The instances themselves and the incentives inside of them are functionally indistinguishable. Are you unaware of this basic fact of game design?

Hunts are also a 'highest tier' of content as they give the highest tier of rewards. Hunts are unlocked. Ergo, the highest tier of content is now unlocked. The only thing you could justify keeping locked at this point is T9, as it gives one inaccessible piece of equipment.

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Originally Posted by Krr

The instances themselves and the incentives inside of them are functionally indistinguishable. Are you unaware of this basic fact of game design?

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Good thing Coil only drops Sand and Oil... wait. Same with ST, Oil isn't the only thing that drops there. You will not convince me, please, stop trying. Just because they let the cat out of the bag with Hunts, does not mean they need to make Second Coil and ST a free for all before the content itself is obsolete.