Ishgard' s archbisschop

The first thing I thought to myself when I saw him during the trailer was:"Looks like they are gonna pull a Barthandelus.".

What do you guys think about the posibillity of him being some deity posing as a leader of humans to manipulate them? Looking at how overzealous most Isgardians are(witch hunts) I wouldn' t be amazed if it turned out to be true.

I'm currently under the opinion that he has been tempered by Shiva.. either completely or partially. And our upcoming fight with Shiva will be bounded on Ishgardians hoping to free him, which we all know is impossible.

I've been saying since 2010 that, based on Final Fantasy's history of having city authorities and religious zealots become antagonists, this Archbishop is bad news. Look at him. Jeuno with a Pope. At this point, it'd come from way out of left field if this guy and his inner circle were clean.

I wouldn' t be surprised if the dragons are actually in the right and the ishgardians just being mindless sheep manipulated by some sinister being/person.

Tbh, if we're talking about being tempered/controlled and what-not, this is the first thing that popped into my head.
And I can see this happening to the warriors of light if they head into his chambers.

http://i.lvme.me/xmeh35.jpg

Shiva is either Kam'lanaut or Jafar.

And the Eelezen lady is the physical embodiment of Shiva? (what I thought when I saw the trailer)

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Originally Posted by Taliss

I'm currently under the opinion that he has been tempered by Shiva.. either completely or partially. And our upcoming fight with Shiva will be bounded on Ishgardians hoping to free him, which we all know is impossible.

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That's assuming that the Ishgardians themselves aren't tempered. If their pope has been tempered to worship Shiva instead of Halone, that tempering would spread. Unlike normal religions, there actualy is something supernatural going on, int this case, brainwashing. The indoctrination would be permanent and Ishgard gets a new sect/cult and some brand new heresy and heretics to deal with, and they would be at a disadvantage because of the brainwashing thing, also the dragons.

There would likely be animosity between Old Ishgard (worshiper of Halone the Fury) and New Ishgard (worshipers of Shiva). Sort of like how Christians (or at least the fundies) react to Paganism (I'd say that's how they react to Muslims/Islamics but since they technically worship the same god that would be a poor analogy)

Well, if they are tempered by Shiva, they're doing a very good job at hiding it - usually tempered are so zealous they can't wait to immediately let everyone in earshot know their 'devotion' to the Primal who tempered them. Ishgardians only have been shown to state their traditional worship of Halone, other than the heretics seen held in the cells under Whitebrim Front (and those unfortunates ramble about the Dravanian Horde, ala the dragons, not Shiva).

Besides, Shiva has not actually yet been stated as having been summoned - all that was stated in the past was that she was worshiped by "an unknown beast tribe to the north", who were "very large", leading to suspicions she's the Primal of the Gigas/Giants. But I guess we'll find out one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Swishytail

Tbh, if we're talking about being tempered/controlled and what-not, this is the first thing that popped into my head.
And I can see this happening to the warriors of light if they head into his chambers.

http://i.lvme.me/xmeh35.jpg

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You sure about that?


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2014/yowfET.gif



http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2014/_QhdcN.gif

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

If their pope has been tempered to worship Shiva instead of Halone

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Can't there be the possibility that Shiva and Halone are the same? Or aspects of each other? They do share some similarities with each other. I don't remember any word on if the primals and the twelve were distinctly different from each other and there was speculation that they were related, or in fact the same.

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Originally Posted by Taliss

Can't there be the possibility that Shiva and Halone are the same? Or aspects of each other? They do share some similarities with each other. I don't remember any word on if the primals and the twelve were distinctly different from each other and there was speculation that they were related, or in fact the same.

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It's possible but there seems to be evidence aganst the Primals and the 12 being the same beings (Not unless the latter pantheon are hiding some dark secrets, which is actually par for the course in a Final fantasy title)

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Originally Posted by MercuryD

And the Eelezen lady is the physical embodiment of Shiva? (what I thought when I saw the trailer)

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It could happen. Rather, the Elezaen look might simply be a glamour, the way some imps/bogeys tend to "glamour" during levequests.

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Originally Posted by Taliss

Can't there be the possibility that Shiva and Halone are the same? Or aspects of each other? They do share some similarities with each other. I don't remember any word on if the primals and the twelve were distinctly different from each other and there was speculation that they were related, or in fact the same.

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This actually isn't such an off-the-wall theory. Gods have been known by different names to different cultures over the years (Ares/Mars, Zeus/Jupiter, Hermes/Thoth, Guan Yin/Kanon, etc.). Halone also happens to be the member of The Twelve representing Astral Ice. It has been speculated that The Twelve are beings akin to primals. Perhaps the aetheric entity once called Halone has adopted (or been given) the name "Shiva" by her current worshipers. Since primals derive power from worship, it's possible that Halone/Shiva is trying to double dip from the beliefs of the Ishgardians and the unannounced beastmen tribe.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

This actually isn't such an off-the-wall theory. Gods have been known by different names to different cultures over the years (Ares/Mars, Zeus/Jupiter, Hermes/Thoth, Guan Yin/Kanon, etc.). Halone also happens to be the member of The Twelve representing Astral Ice. It has been speculated that The Twelve are beings akin to primals. Perhaps the aetheric entity once called Halone has adopted (or been given) the name "Shiva" by her current worshipers. Since primals derive power from worship, it's possible that Halone/Shiva is trying to double dip from the beliefs of the Ishgardians and the unannounced beastmen tribe.

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So you're assuming that hundu beastmen once found halone and named her Shiva?

I'd like to shoot some holes in this theory:

* Some Primals such as Odin and Leviathan have no correlating member of the 12
* The elements don't match the corresponding of the 12 for most of them
Im sure there are other holrs but those are what comes to mind for me.

How about this crazy theory, the council of Ascians we see in 2.3 are the 12 Eorzeans worship. They taught the beasttribes how to summon, because Eorzean's fear them. The primals are shapes and parts of those Ascians essence and take forms appealing to those worshiping them. Hence Ifrit is lizardy like the Amaljaa, leviathan is fishy like the Sahagin, Garuda is birdy like the birds and so on. Again a theory, but would be interesting and great shock value of, "oh you are our gods? Well damn!" Lol

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Well, if they are tempered by Shiva, they're doing a very good job at hiding it - usually tempered are so zealous they can't wait to immediately let everyone in earshot know their 'devotion' to the Primal who tempered them.

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There are different levels of tempering, so it's possible Shiva has tempered the Ishgardians to believe that she is Halone, while she builds up her plan.

Yoshi has been very cryptic regarding Shiva, and I get the feeling that she's "different" from the other Primals. All the other Primals met are devoted to protecting their beastmen worshippers. The Primal's goals seem very short-term: gather more followers and kill their enemies. Shiva, Ramuh possibly as well, seem to be playing a long-term game. If she has tempered the archbishop, the she has done it in away that isn't obvious. She wants to remain hidden and steer Ishgard from the shadows. Since Ishgard is fighting the dragons, it's reasonable to assume that the dragons are a threat to her plan. I'm getting a vibe that Shiva is being built up as the next "big bad" after Gaius.

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Originally Posted by Icepick823

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Then I can see Ishgard declaring war in the rest of Eorzea. a fantasy version of the War on Terror perhaps? Oh and an Enemy Mine with the Empire.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Then I can see Ishgard declaring war in the rest of Eorzea. a fantasy version of the War on Terror perhaps? Oh and an Enemy Mine with the Empire.

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Well Yoshi hinted prerelease that Ishgard will be more of a battlefield location and not a straight up city. I cant find interview now but it was last year sometime.

What if each element of the Twelve represents part of a Primal? The dual aspects of each element being the astral/umbral representations of the primal that corresponds to that element.

ex.) Menphina could be the astral version of Shiva and Halone is the Umbral version of Shiva.

The names Menphina and Halone would then be used to refer to the astral and umbral natures of a single Primal.

And on a further idea that maybe Menphina and Halone were both, long ago, two separate people who the crystal(s) could have chose to manifest as on single being for whoever knows why.

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Originally Posted by Sanadaiyeve

What if each element of the Twelve represents part of a Primal? The dual aspects of each element being the astral/umbral representations of the primal that corresponds to that element.

ex.) Menphina could be the astral version of Shiva and Halone is the Umbral version of Shiva.

The names Menphina and Halone would then be used to refer to the astral and umbral natures of a single Primal.

And on a further idea that maybe Menphina and Halone were both, long ago, two separate people who the crystal(s) could have chose to manifest as on single being for whoever knows why.

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So you're saying is that the Primals are fusions of 2 of the 12?

That still dosn't explain Odin and Bahamut but hey they're called "Elder Primals" so maybe those two are eldritch beings that we are incapable of perceiving the origins. maybe they are older than Hydaelyn, Zodiark and Eorzea itself.

I'd like to see us come back to Odin, who he was, who Urth was, the unnamed people he refers to when you fight him, etc... Anyway, off topic.

Everyone assumes that the Archbishop is no good. That Ishgard is gonna be the new hub, the new Rev Toll. That the story will unfold similarly to the story of FFXI's Jeuno: Mysterious leader who is initially very generous to the player turns out to be the instigator of so many bad things. I don't see it going that way. I think it's gonna be more like if Shamonde ruled San d'Oria.Those guys in the Templar armor as his Temple Knights... I got some serious Sandy vibes in that scene. Remember, Windy called for aid. And Sandy answered. OK, enough nostalgia. I don't think he's evil. Just very zealous and single-minded in his dedication to total victory over the Dravanian hordes. Might he be a bit crazy by our standards and certainly stingy in not aiding the allies that Ishgard had gathered in The Autumn War.

You know... There is one very important question and curiosity, that I have yet to be asked or answered... Ever since 1.0 the Empire has ignored Ishgard... They attacked the other city-states or annexed them... But the Whole of Ishgard and Coerthas has been entirely ignored by the Empire and it is in between Mor Dhona, Uldah and LL from garlamald... I wonder why that is? And why the gates have been shut to even Ishgardians outside of Ishgard since 1.0 per the NPC's. I smell something sinister there.

Part of that may be not only the harsh conditions, but also because Ishgard is both pretty far north (with currently only Sharlayan and Dravania beyond it) and it's rather well inland. Ala Mhigo, being south of Garlemald, and the most outland of Eorzea was kind of an easy target, but with 2 of the 3 big city states standing as the "blockade"to the rest of Eorzea (which makes me wonder how they got a Castrum on Vylbrand) sitting right there to the west, and mountainous, possibly uninhabitable/unusable mountains north of Gridania, there'd be no way to reach Ishgard other than airships. . . then they'd have both Ishgard AND Dravanians/dragons to deal with.

In 1.0 the battle of silvertear they flew over Ishgard to The Falls before the whole fleet was disposed of. Then in the end of 1.0 they flew over ishgard again and set up bases everywhere else but ignored ishgard. If the wanted full control of Eorzea its bad idea to just ignore the city state in the middle of it all, unless there is some reason yet to be given to us the players.

well, Ishgard wasn't willing to help the other three city states against The Empire at the end of 2.0 either, right?

The way they set up the Ishgardians and their pope thus far I'd actually be disappointed if they weren't bad guys one way or the other.

About Shiva, Halone and not every Primal fitting one of the Twelve... Humans tend to revere stuffs they can't understand with gods so when Shiva showed up they might have thought her a goddess and called her Halone. That wouldn't necessarily mean that the primals are all part of the twelve, nor that every god of the twelve has to be a primal.

Also, if I remember correctly Lahabret (?was that his name - I'm talking of the ascian that took control over Thancred) draws a comparison between the Beast-tribes worshipping the Primals and us worshipping the twelve.

I'm really looking forward as to how the story will further unfold :)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

other than the heretics seen held in the cells under Whitebrim Front (and those unfortunates ramble about the Dravanian Horde, ala the dragons, not Shiva).

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Now this is an excellent point. The heretics certainly exhibit the traits typical of the heavily-tempered.
Thus far we have only seen symptoms of the lightly-tempered amongst Ishgardian behaviour, which is difficult to distinguish from conventional zealotry. Could this be due to remaining outside the Gates of Judgement?

I had an earlier theory that thought Shiva may be the primal of the dragons. That's still plausible, though I still think her being summoned as Halone is more probable, playing the long-term game with the Holy See as discussed by others.

Why in the world would the garleans attack Ishgard? They're already fighting off three city states and not doing so hot as is - if the ishgardians are content to stand aside, why add a fourth to the mix before you're done with the first three? That, and all winning control over ishgard gets you is a front row seat against the ongoing war against the dragons. Sounds like a bad deal all around to me. >_>

Empires opinion is win by superior fire power which they had over all of Eorzea prior to primals unleashed! And ala mhigo was stronger than ishgard! In all city states of Eorzea. Plus The Empire conquered the rest of the known world in no time at all so what is some backwater place as Eorzea to them?

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Now this is an excellent point. The heretics certainly exhibit the traits typical of the heavily-tempered.

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My only concern there is that, many sources of dialogue suggest that people are behaving that way because of excessive torture. Some of them may be heretics, some may just be saying anything at all because they've been broken physically and mentally.

Guillaime (the false Inquisitor) and his Temple Knight conspirator (name I can't remember, but you fight him at Francel's trial and he summons a Wyvern) are two I'd argue display tempered behaviour and unlikely to be victims of torture.

What does Marcellus Wallace look like!? No, let's try that again...


What does a "normal" dravanian beastman look like and what innate abilities do the rank and file have? It could be that the powers our false Inquisitor and false Templar displayed are not uncommon abilities among the Dravanian people. Or their shape-shifting power is primal related. That's pretty much our two options.

I'd like to see what a Dravanian looks like, and I'm hoping it's not just, like, intelligent Thustaevis or other dragon type mobs that we see in Coerthas. There is just so much we do not know about the Dravanian hordes, their kings, and what primal(s) they might worship. Finding out what the Bahamut and Twintania connections to the Dravanians would be fun.

Considering dragons and the keeper Midgardsormr were protecting the seal of the primals until the empire broke it. I think there is definately more to and possibly good to do with the dragons?

Because those hatreds are so old, if we need to team up with the Dravanians for any reason whatsoever, there will be friction with Ishgard. And I believe this is precisely what they are going to do, since it makes for a more interesting story. The blood of millions of Ishgardians and Sharlayans is on their hands, however...

And what would make us team up with dragons? Let me lay a guess that it will be something more powerful than Bahamut.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

So you're assuming that hundu beastmen once found halone and named her Shiva?

I'd like to shoot some holes in this theory:

* Some Primals such as Odin and Leviathan have no correlating member of the 12
* The elements don't match the corresponding of the 12 for most of them
Im sure there are other holrs but those are what comes to mind for me.

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I never said every primal is a member of The Twelve in disguise (or vice versa). Shiva has been stated to be different/special compared to other primals a number of times. This one (and I'd nominate Ramuh as well in this category) seems to be more strategic and cunning in her operations.

One theory proposed by another in my FC is that Shiva does actually lord over the dragons, and hasn't tempered Ishgard, but has still manipulated them into their continuous Holy War to feed off the aether released by the massive loss of life from both sides. In this way, Ishgardians would have no reason to exhibit fanatical devotion to her by name, and in a way the dragons sort of do (I don't think we've encountered an actual dragon talking yet? Though there is the heretic "inspector", so I'm not sure where to go with that).

I could see several of these scenarios tossed out there as plausible and can't really choose one as a clear frontrunner in my mind, but I do think it's pretty obvious now at least that Shiva and Ishgard's stories intersect each other in some way, and that Shiva is most likely very subtle and underhanded in her dealings compared to the brash in-your-face personalities of Garuda and Ifrit.

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Originally Posted by Myranda

...and that Shiva is most likely very subtle and underhanded in her dealings compared to the brash in-your-face personalities of Garuda and Ifrit.

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I think Shiva would be the most sociopathic of the Primals. Probably (and will likely think of herself as) closer to one Vincent Cheung's interpretation of the Abrahamic God is then her namesake (or you know, more common interpretations of God. The fact that this links to Fundies Say The Darndest Things tells a lot about this guy.)

And to prove her sociopathy there will be an area full of suspicious ice statues that bear an uncanny resebalence to the five races and dragons. And then to hammer it home she'll threaten to freeze the scions in this manner (ala Frozen)

How this related to the other primals. Well She'll likely be a literal cheating bastard, as opposed to Ifrit and Garuda's "fair" play. And As another indicator of her sociopathy, she'll likely think compassion and empathy would be weakness (and cite Titan's and Ramuh's defeats as examples). Her overall personaly will be cold; stoic, shrewd and devoid of all empahy and sympathy to others, not even her own subject would be safe from her wrath.

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Originally Posted by Rocl

Guillaime (the false Inquisitor) and his Temple Knight conspirator (name I can't remember, but you fight him at Francel's trial and he summons a Wyvern) are two I'd argue display tempered behaviour and unlikely to be victims of torture.

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I'd have to rewatch that dialogue again, but I would agree. In the quote I was referring to though, Catapult and Enkidoh were talking about the prisoners in the cells located in Coerthas who are quite broken people.

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Originally Posted by Saikou

Finding out what the Bahamut and Twintania connections to the Dravanians would be fun.

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AFAIK, Twin has nothing to do with the Dravanians. It's implied that she and her ilk are remnants of Merisidia (can't be arsed to remember how that's spelled), which is a separate continent to the south, iirc.

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Originally Posted by Saikou

What does Marcellus Wallace look like!? No, let's try that again...


What does a "normal" dravanian beastman look like and what innate abilities do the rank and file have? It could be that the powers our false Inquisitor and false Templar displayed are not uncommon abilities among the Dravanian people. Or their shape-shifting power is primal related. That's pretty much our two options.

I'd like to see what a Dravanian looks like, and I'm hoping it's not just, like, intelligent Thustaevis or other dragon type mobs that we see in Coerthas. There is just so much we do not know about the Dravanian hordes, their kings, and what primal(s) they might worship. Finding out what the Bahamut and Twintania connections to the Dravanians would be fun.

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The game clearly states the Dravanian Horde are the thustaevises - they're like their rank and file grunts, where as the true dragons like Svara and Nidhogg are the 'aristocracy', the leaders of the Horde. Thus this makes the Dravanians somewhat unique amongst the other beastmen tribes - more bestial and less like men. But the actual dragons like Nidhogg are shown to be intelligent, and even capable of communication (such as during the DRG quests).

To me at least, I think that the Dravanians are different to other beastmen in that the actual dragons of their tribe are capable of directly corrupting men (such as shown during the DRG quests) without the presence of a Primal, which probably explains how they've been creating heretics without any apparent Primal summoning going on. That would also pour, excuse the pun, hot water on the whole 'Shiva is the Primal of the dragons' theory, but it does go someway to explaining how the dragons have been brainwashing for so long without a Primal's influence.