Exaltation and doubts concerning Rogue/Ninja

Rogue animations are drooling.
Ninja especially looks particularly "ninjaesque" in the looks and animations. It's fantastic :D

Let's get to the doubts part.

• I see no THF as second job of the Rogue class. Does this mean that we'll never get Thief and that we'll never see another class with double job like Arcanist? As similar as Rogue is, it's NO THF (wields daggers like they're Katanas, won't have AF, won't have relic, will be far-east related etc)
• Ninja will have 17 class actions from Rogue, some of which will be ninjaesque already. Won't "only" 5 job actions be too few to get all/most the iconic FF ninja stuff? Katon, Hyoton, Huton, Doton, Raiton, Suiton, self destruct, leaving only a wood in place, and creating shadows etc. They also have enfeebling abilities as well. Some of these could be made into Rogue stuff, but certainly not the elemental ones.

This kinda makes me wonder if the strict standardization they adopted during patch 1.1 and the class reform. Is it really good, or if it can become a negative boundary for developers?
I'm talking about the 17+5 actions model, which they respected for all classes if we exclude pet actions.
I think maybe this is too strict of a "rule" that they gave themselves.
Maybe one class feels perfect with 15+5 (whereas with the current model they'd be forced to "invent" 2 useless actions to reach the number of 17), or maybe another class could kinda get 19, but they can't because of the limit.
It's the same with job actions. Some might as well feel perfect with 4 whereas some other could use 6 or 7 actions.
Standardizing stuff is nice, but I wonder if it really won't create issues in the future.

"trying as much as possible" to give 17+5 to all classes is a thing.
Making it absolutely mandatory no matter what even without reasons, is another thing, no?

Maybe a secret sect could pop up someplace in the world that practiced in the Rogue guild and found ways to further improve their craft and then it could become Thief later on down the line. Of course, then the biggest question would be to make Thief some sort of stealth tank or some sort of a healer? Having two DPS jobs branching from a DPS class would be odd now that I think about it.

Well, firstly, Yoshida's own words label rogue as XIV's thief, that the rogue's guild is made up of reformed thieves so likely no, no Thief Job. As for Ninja it will probably only have three elemental attacks, corresponding to thaumaturge's elemental attack spells as that's the most likely sub-class. It probably won't have "Self-Destruct" as that's too XI and Yoshida is trying not to make XI-2 if he can help it. Probably won't have "Decoy" either as that's so cliche' as to make anyone sane cringe. Utsusemi will probably also be a no-show as people will try to tank with it if given half the chance then complain as all heck when they can't due to no enmity generation moves. I think the most likely thing will be some manner of Backstab as evidenced by the Ninja jumping on Ifrit's head.

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Originally Posted by Antanias

Having two DPS jobs branching from a DPS class would be odd now that I think about it.

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I said the same thing in the other thread, but you just can't reason with some people.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

blahblah as that's too XI and Yoshida is trying not to make XI-2

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I think the "error" in your reasoning is that you're thinking about the XI implementation of those abilities.
Just because Utsusemi in FFXI was a defensive move that allowed you to absorb a certain number of hits without taking damage, doesn't mean it has to be the same in XIV.
The concept is that "Utsusemi" is an iconic Ninja action, and it's about multiplying yourself with your "shadows".
It could be a DPS move in FFXIV for instance, similar to Mirror Image in WoW/Diablo if you follow.
Same for Mijin Gakure and several other Iconic Ninja things.
They don't have to be the same as FFXI, I'd actually be happier if they didn't.
They are core elements of the Ninja job (in all FFs/general japanese myths), and with so many iconic things having "only" 5 job actions sounds like it's gonna be really hard for them to achieve this goal.

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I said the same thing in the other thread, but you just can't reason with some people.

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Your concern is quite understandable!
At the same time though, it wouldn't be THAT strange. Look other games, it happens pretty often there.
As long as those 2 DPS feel really different (magic DPS, a physical DPS, melee, ranged one... or simply just 2 completely different styles. Easy to make a class branch into 2 dps jobs and still feel like it makes sense).

The problem here, once again, lies in their 17+5 system which is way too strict.
When all of the branched jobs share the same core of 17 actions (that's 78% of the total number) and only have 5 different and unique abilities... it's gonna be REALLY HARD to make those 2 jobs feel "different".
Possible? Yes.
Easy? No.
So I completely share your sentiment but I think this is not a theoretical issue with "having 2 jobs from the same class" thing, rather a specific issue of FFXIV's 17+5 system.

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Originally Posted by Monsalvato

Won't "only" 5 job actions be too few to get all/most the iconic FF ninja stuff?

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No, it won't.

To further elaborate, Ninja will have some unique skills which will be used in combination with each other. Certain combinations of these skills will result in particular talents being used. Assuming that you get 5 of these skills and can use them in differing order that's a huge number of different potential combinations, and nothing preventing you from using several of the same skill in a row (at least in theory, no word as yet) for yet more combinations.

This was all announced in the big reveal, so feel free to trawl through the video for the nuggets of info.

Utsusemi is iconic? It's basically Blink renamed. Which, funny enough, is a White Magic skill. So this foolish notion that it's an iconic Ninja move is a load of trash.

So Ninja will get special Mudra "actions" like hand positioning in Naruto, or Runes, or whatever else you want to call them, and using combinations of these will produce different effects (for instance an Aoe ice based "Hyoton" attack, or a single target "Katon" attack, or an AoE enfeebling thunder based "Raiton" and so on)
Now that's a really cool and smart idea :D

I still think 5 is too small of a number, at least for some jobs (not just Ninja), but I guess we will just have to wait for the level cap increase (expansion) for that ^^

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Originally Posted by Monsalvato

I still think 5 is too small of a number, at least for some jobs (not just Ninja), but I guess we will just have to wait for the level cap increase (expansion) for that

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To give you some perspective, your genes have only 4 different parts yet the different combinations of those four number thousands upon thousands. It makes up the entirety of life on this planet. I really don't see 5 as being all that limiting myself.

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Originally Posted by Monsalvato

leaving only a wood in place, and creating shadows etc. They also have enfeebling abilities as well. Some of these could be made into Rogue stuff, but certainly not the elemental ones.[/list]

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They have the same problem with Dragoon. 1 jump ability with a 40s CD does not a dragoon make.

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Originally Posted by Rubieus

They have the same problem with Dragoon. 1 jump ability with a 40s CD does not a dragoon make.

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But Dragoons have three jumps. Jump, Spineshatter Dive and Dragonfire Dive.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Utsusemi is iconic? It's basically Blink renamed. Which, funny enough, is a White Magic skill. So this foolish notion that it's an iconic Ninja move is a load of trash.

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Read above my reply to Gilraen.
You're too focused on thinking about FFXI.
Ignore it, pretend it doesn't exist.
What's important here, the iconic thing, is the ability of "creating illusory shadows of one's self".
Utsusemi: Ichi and Utsusemi: Ni in final fantasy XI were just a possible implementation of that (and it was a defensive ability similar to the white magic spell "Blink", just like you said).

It doesn't have to be the same in FFXIV, I sure hope it won't! What's important here is the iconic ability of multiple shadows, whatever their role into the game mechanics will be.

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Originally Posted by Monsalvato

Read above my reply to Gilraen.
You're too focused on thinking about FFXI.
Ignore it, pretend it doesn't exist.
What's important here, the iconic thing, is the ability of "creating illusory shadows of one's self".
Utsusemi: Ichi and Utsusemi: Ni in final fantasy XI were just a possible implementation of that (and it was a defensive ability similar to the white magic spell "Blink", just like you said).

It doesn't have to be the same in FFXIV, I sure hope it won't! What's important here is the iconic ability of multiple shadows, whatever their role into the game mechanics will be.

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Utsusemi, in every single iteration of that ability in every single medium (not just Final Fantasy, in every single thing the skill Utsusemi has ever appeared in), has always been a defensive evasion action.

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Originally Posted by Monsalvato

This kinda makes me wonder if the strict standardization they adopted during patch 1.1 and the class reform. Is it really good, or if it can become a negative boundary for developers?
I'm talking about the 17+5 actions model, which they respected for all classes if we exclude pet actions.
I think maybe this is too strict of a "rule" that they gave themselves.
Maybe one class feels perfect with 15+5 (whereas with the current model they'd be forced to "invent" 2 useless actions to reach the number of 17), or maybe another class could kinda get 19, but they can't because of the limit.
It's the same with job actions. Some might as well feel perfect with 4 whereas some other could use 6 or 7 actions.
Standardizing stuff is nice, but I wonder if it really won't create issues in the future.

"trying as much as possible" to give 17+5 to all classes is a thing.
Making it absolutely mandatory no matter what even without reasons, is another thing, no?

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I think it's rather silly, to be honest. I mean, because of this system they randomly had to give a SONG to ARCHER, since they can't fit it in the 5 from the Bard job (which, let's face it, is forced as it is.. archer -> bard? WTF were you smoking SE?).

Yeah that's one good example that left me very puzzled.
I dunno.
It sure made sense during the times of 1.0 where they had to optimize times and resources, but I was expecting some major changes in ARR.
Maybe with the expansion?

I think they definitely have to do something about the Class/Job inconsistency that's present at the moment.
Of the 2 possible choices that were available at the time, Yoshi-P opted for the Class+Jobs model instead of the Jobs-only one for one reason.
And that very one reason is not fulfilled atm.
So they either find a way to fulfill it or it's completely meaningless to have a separation between Jobs and Classes (aside lore reasons, which could've been handled many other ways in the end)

Blink was a WHM spell in XI. Ninjas in games prior to XI had the Blink ability not WHMs. Also 5 is only how many we have now. We have a level cap increase coming. People seem to ignore that fact a lot. If you want to make XI comparisons make them with level 50 jobs in XI. NIN in XI didn't have Migawari (the wood decoy spell) until the 80s.

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Originally Posted by Rubieus

They have the same problem with Dragoon. 1 jump ability with a 40s CD does not a dragoon make.

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Other than a couple of exceptions (Khimari's Lancet for instance), Jump IS the only thng that makes a DRG. What else did Kain do that Cecil couldn't? He just whacked things with a spear instead of a sword. Edgar was a Machinist first and foremost. DRG class in V again was simply about Jumping. In XIV we already have 4 Jumps (if you count Elusive) and a level cap increase coming that will introduce more abilities (Lancet maybe?).

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Originally Posted by Lithera

Ninjas in games prior to XI had the Blink ability not WHMs.

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You'd really want to do some research before saying stuff like that

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Blink_%28Ability%29

FFI => WHM
FFII => WHM
FFIV => WHM
FFV => WHM
FFXI => WHM


not named blink if it was in other games.
It was never a NIN skill...

Blink and Utsusemi work differently. Utsusemi is fast and versatile, Blink is slow but holds more damage and can't be used as quickly. Not to mention Utsusemi uses a tiered form of buff based on shadow count.

They mentioned Ninjas using Mudras (hand seals) you combine them in different orders, to cause different effects. if you dont combine them in the right order, nothing happens.
So there's 4-5 different seals, that you could make quite a lot of different effects with (potentially) So you dont really need lots of skill slots.
Also they said they will increase lv cap, when they add new jobs...so maybe we'll get lv60-75. in which case each job would get 5 more job skills, 6 class skills, and passive/traits.

Also...please stop using XI as model....
Most of the Jobs that were in XI, that are in XIV, work differently, so will Ninja.

To me Rogue and Thief are literally the same thing.

If anything the second job should be Sky Pirate.

Sky Pirate: Wields a dagger and pistol.
lvl 3 limit break. Don't listen to Ondores lies.

having doubts over a bunch of speculation huh? ok....

an as far as the 17/5 ability ratio an 2 jobs coming from 1 class, that has already been discussed to death. All they have to do is change how some abilities work for the other job. I mean look at Sch an Smn. Those 5 abilites were enough to make the jobs stand apart. For example. Let's say they make Drk come out of Pld. All they have to do is give him a buff like Shield Oath, that instead of generating aggro, turns his aggro abilites into higher damage abilites so he doesnt generate threat and deals better dps. Granted this is all speculation too, but to say that the company cant design 2 jobs for every class because of the limiting 17/5 ability ratios, is pretty dumb, as they have already proven that they CAN do it.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

But Dragoons have three jumps. Jump, Spineshatter Dive and Dragonfire Dive.

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Dragoon has 1 Jump ability with a cooldown of 40s. The other two abilities are ... a travesty. Jump should be a staple, Or it's not dragoon. It's a wannabe dragoon.

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Originally Posted by DoubleT

but to say that the company cant design 2 jobs for every class because of the limiting 17/5 ability ratios

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Hope you're quoting someone else because this is totally not what I said.

SMN and SCH do indeed feel very different, but that's because:
1) They are different roles: DPS and Healer
2) They are currently (NIN to be the next one?) exception to the 17+5 rule. Thanks to pet actions, the difference among them is far greater than "just" 5 actions.

If we exclude the exceptions of Pet actions and Mudra (hope we're gonna see more of these creative solutions, altough it makes you think: why do they have circumvein a limit they created themselves when they could just delete such limit?), situation would be quite different for another class.
It would be hard If you were to create a second job of the same role for one class, and differentiating them with only 5 actions (REALLY 5 now).
Possible? Yes.
Realistically very hard? Alas, yes.

Also maybe I completely went of track and if it's the case I apologize, but I don't get your attitude with your post.
It seems you came here with the attitude off "Pffff kids, allow me to shut your mouth up by pouring my wisdom on you annoying kids".
Do you want to discuss? Then come here, voice your opinions and provide ways to support them and try to confront yourself with other users on equal ground.

The "fun" of a forum should be confronting yourself. The goal here is talking, discussing, and maybe changing your mind after finding out perspectives you missed.
Sometimes for some people it seems the goal instead is proving who's wrong and who's right and coming out victor of some sort of "war" they see everywhere.

This should be a place for discussion, suppositions and opinions exchange, not a battleground... just my two cents of course.

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Originally Posted by TheRogueX

I think it's rather silly, to be honest. I mean, because of this system they randomly had to give a SONG to ARCHER, since they can't fit it in the 5 from the Bard job (which, let's face it, is forced as it is.. archer -> bard? WTF were you smoking SE?).

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Exactly. I hope we will get an honest answer some day, I doubt it though.

All is good when they add 2nd jobs to our classes with RNG coming from archer.

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Originally Posted by DoubleT

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Neither SMN nor SCH, changes the way that ACN skills work.
I'm quite sure DRK wouldnt get a skill that convert halone, to damage...cause it's already 260 potency. They might get another skill that combos off Riot blade instead, or 2 new skills for a new combo (you know war has 3 combo finishers.)
Also, swords have same atk as spears; PLD only does less damage than DRG, because PLD get less damage/str, than DRG, so they only need to increase the amount of damage that DRK get/str. Then GLD got fight or flight also, for +30% damage.
The problem with GLD->DRK, is that GLD has to much defensive buffs, which would make a DD DRK, to OP. So it'd be better if they made LNC->DRK instead, giving it B4B, Life Surge, Dread Spike, etc. That way they could make it a parry based leech tank, that convert some of the incoming damage, to HP instead (Though that already sounds a bit like what WAR, is currently doing)

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

Exactly. I hope we will get an honest answer some day, I doubt it though.

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We already have the honest answer, I mean, we already know the "truth" that they'll never say.
They made Archer > Bard because it was more unique and original.
At the same time they couldn't make it into an hybrid or supporter class because:
1) They needed a ranged physical DPS
2) The current system has a very strict implementation of the trinity system (tank/dd/healer), and in such a scenario they couldn't fit a hybrid or a supporter class (realistically they might fit hybrid in the future, but pure supporter will never have a place in FFXIV)

So you might ask "But why not ranger? They could have done the same with Archer>Ranger". Yes, but they liked the idea of using Bard instead because it seemed less obvious, more fresh and unique. I think it's just that.
There's still hope in the future if the "Multiple jobs per class" thing becomes a standard, we'll get RNG for ARC and at that point they might completely rehaul BRD and turn it into a hybrid class. (dps/supporter).
It's not a given but... I seriously hope it's gonna happen.
(altough it would feel strange to have new jobs for old classes being released and having them instantly at level cap without needing to level them :x)

I'm with you all the way..

However I think team 1.0 had those classes which the second team kept. Then they decided to bring back the classical FF jobs (WHM/BLM/WAR etc..). They ended up, like you said, needing a physical ranged dps. They gave it some support indeed. So Archer => Bard. Hmmpf, yeh thanks SE!