While I completely understand why many of you want to defend this game I don't see how white knighting is productive in any way.
If there are 5 diff threads complaining about dc'ing, why tell people complaining about it they are trolls or just qq'ing. It's obviously an issue that annoys multiple people, and an issue that really shouldn't exist.
If people dislike how the targeting system works with a keyboard why make them sound whiny and claim it works perfectly with your controller. This is a PC game, it's not supposed to need a controller to work.
If people have issues with soloing why tell them to go play a single player game and that MMO's aren't meant for soloing? This game was -SUPPOSED- to be a casual/solo game in the first place. Even for the past month the devs have been pointing that this patch would allow for people to level up solo overtime if they choose too. And if now people are finding that this is not really a possibility, why call them trolls?
If people have problems with jobs being nerfed, why tell them "thats just how MMOs are". This game is already borderline dead, chasing more players away is not a sound strategy. The least the dev team could of done was to post "suggestions" as to how jobs should be used it battle so that people don't think their job has been totally gimped. FFXI lost massive amount of players when jobs like drg and bst got gimped, FFXIV doesn't need to make the same mistakes, and can't afford too. No one wants to spend a month leveling up a job only to find out they have to level up another once since theirs is useless now.
And there are many other valid complaints out there that i see white knights constantly arguing against. I understand -YOU- may like the game. But its clear that MANY people on here are having issues. And calling them trolls or arguing that they are wrong when there are multiple threads being made all sharing the same sentiments seems counterproductive.
If we want this game to succeed, it will need to hold players and attract new players at some point. It's clear this game is having trouble with success and therefore criticisms are justified. And whenever people call those criticizing the game trolls, it just creates a board full of white knights who will defend the game no matter what. And as a result instead of getting things that matter like:
Party invite that works
Auction House
Fixed battle UI
etc. that will attract players to this game.
We will end up getting prettily dressed chocobos, male miquote's, and boring meaningless quests, which will appeal to the few currently in love with the game.
Sadly if this game doesn't get new players SE will probably stop spending money on it and we will never get to experience amazing expansions or anything similar. They will prob keep it active because its an FF title, but never invest to make it great.
So Please, quit the white knighting and quit bashing people posting criticisms. When the game is a success THEN you can bash people criticizing it. But at this time, the game deserves to be criticized, and hopefully it will help the game improve overtime.
Why all the White Knights?
Printable View
-
07-22-2011, 03:16 PMAzurymberWhy all the White Knights?
-
07-22-2011, 03:18 PMSynthesis
Don't forget about faction leves icons. :D
-
07-22-2011, 03:18 PMSonic_the_Hedgehog
Why all the Black Knights?
-
07-22-2011, 03:23 PMTheVediswe want our dark knights!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog
-
07-22-2011, 03:25 PMJennestia
Funny enough, instead of understanding the otherside of the argument, people seem to default to calling them "fanboys" or "white knights" and "defending" simply because they refuse to accept anything else.
False -- It was designed to be casual friendly which the guildleves were supposed to be but it launched with ONLY guildleve content which misconstrued the vision of the game, btw, Square themselves said the original direction wasn't the best idea/a mistake.Quote:
If people have issues with soloing why tell them to go play a single player game and that MMO's aren't meant for soloing? This game was -SUPPOSED- to be a casual/solo game in the first place.
Really, did people forget that MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game? If you join an MMO to do nothing but play by yourself, isn't by definition that's the same as playing a single player game? This is why people say "go play a single player offline game", because people generally play MMOs to want to be social.
You're being worse than a "white knight" -- You, as well as anyone else who actually read what the developers write would know their priorty is indeed fixing the battle as well as the interface, which they talk about a lot.Quote:
t just creates a board full of white knights who will defend the game no matter what. And as a result instead of getting things that matter like:
Party invite that works
Auction House
Fixed battle UI
etc. that will attract players to this game.
I'm sorry but in all of my time of playing MMORPGs, an Auction House isn't what attracts player to it, people I know who wanted to play TERA and signed up for the JP closed beta didn't join it because of its economy.
"Why all the White Knights" you ask? Why all misconstrued views of the reality of the situation? -
07-22-2011, 03:28 PMArlekiel
The OP speaks the truth :)
-
07-22-2011, 03:31 PMSonic_the_HedgehogHe/She/It speaks a false truth. I won't follow a false prophet. Down with the Black Knights!Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlekiel
-
07-22-2011, 03:32 PMVerecund
Low self esteem, most likely
-
07-22-2011, 03:34 PMSuzakuCMX
Why all the whiners?
Why do we need 5 threads in one forum to say that someone DC'd? People should post in one thread about it.
They already stated they're going to give a different set-up to Keyboard/Mouse users as opposed to controllers, and saying "HEY GUYS THIS SUCKS AND DOESN'T WORK FOR ME" doesn't tell them anything. If you're going to complain about it, identify what exactly isn't working and give solutions. That goes for all complaints.
The current playerbase probably isn't what SE wants it to be anyways, they're going to need to reach a broader demographic than the masochistic fools fooling themselves into thinking that the game is or was any semblance of a releasable game (it's still in need of a lot of work). It's going to change drastically, and not everyone is going to like that, so of course some people are going to leave. The dev team probably knows that too, but hey, what can you do when players on the EN forums feel that they're entitled to have the game changed exactly for them and not for more players than are currently playing? -
07-22-2011, 04:20 PMTigercubThis is a legitimate issue and deserves attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
Because it works absolutely fine with a keyboard, too. You just need to set it up right. I play with a keyboard and have no targeting problems whatsoever. If for some weird reason you can't change the controls to a scheme that suits you, then invest in a controller to solve your issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
Because there is still plenty of soloable content in the game. Solo is meant to be an option for the busy, not a rival to partying, otherwise there is little point in parties. When the devs say they want solo to be an option, I'm pretty sure they don't mean "you should be able to accomplish just as much alone as you can with some friends".Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
Because that's a total dramatization. None of them are useless, they're more in line now with other classes than they ever were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurymber
Many of us have got time and input for problems that have their foundations in something other than flaring emotions, such as the disconnect issue, which is a real issue. Unfortunately, most of the complaints that pass through these forums are just people spitting the dummy, people who have misunderstood something, or just good old fashioned trolls.
I couldn't give a damn about SE as a company. You could accuse me of just about anything other than white knighting. I'm not saying that there are no white knights out there; on the contrary, I'm sure there's plenty. But you need to distinguish between the white knights and the voices of reason. -
07-22-2011, 04:28 PMBled
The term Whiteknighting was developed by a group of butt hurt individuals who cant see the other side of an opinion/debate/argument and felt ganged up on. Just because people have different opinions then you and happen to support each other in that shared opinion, does not make deeming them whiteknighting any more strengthening to your opinion/debate/argument.
the term Whiteknighting is actually juvenile... -
07-22-2011, 04:30 PMLusavariDid you do that already on a Wii Exclusive title that wasn't really that good?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog
-
07-22-2011, 04:31 PMSonic_the_HedgehogThat made me smile :) +1 sir!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lusavari
-
07-22-2011, 04:31 PMLuxLex
Oh but calling people with legitimate concerns "trolls" is totally mature, right? As is calling them babies, telling them to go back to wow, make some friends... don't let the door hit you on the way out, etc.
I am admittedly biased, but the people who are concerned about this patch generally seem to engage in a higher tier of dialogue than those responding to them. -
07-22-2011, 04:32 PMRaim
There is nothing 'fine' about the targeting system in this game. Its like it intentionally targets the wrong enemies. Do you know how many times I have spammed Tab to target a monster right in front of me, for it to cycle every single other enemy on the horizon first in a completely randomized order?
-
07-22-2011, 04:34 PMBledSo all these rage quit threads are a higher tier of dialogue... wow i missed the memo O.oQuote:
Originally Posted by LuxLex
-
07-22-2011, 04:35 PMTigercubSo use the target nearest NPC key.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raim
Sorry, I just don't have any issues with targeting. -
07-22-2011, 04:36 PMLuxLex
yeah, I invite you to take a look at neptune's thread again. He clearly lays out his concerns, with nary a hint of "rage-quit" - but it is cool, believe what you want.
-
07-22-2011, 04:38 PMLuxLexAh, so every reviewer of this game was nothing but a raging troll liar, amirite? It is a perfect gem of playability that has been hampered by a conspiracy to keep its total awesomeness a secret. And SE is not charging subs because the game is so horrible it would lose any chance of attracting a paying customer who isn't a blind whiteknight, but because they just want to give a gift to mmo players with taste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigercub
Do I have that right? -
07-22-2011, 04:42 PMBledThere are rage quit threads all over the board... yes there are some constructive threads (Neptunes threads normally are), however there are also plenty of non constructive. When you stated that people opposing the patch have a higher tier of dialogue you made a incorrect correlation.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxLex
Now can you please get off your high horse and stop pontificating... -
07-22-2011, 04:44 PMTigercubUm, the game sucks. It has loads of problems. But targeting isn't one of them. Neither is the archer "nerf". Everyone saw that coming. I'm a little on the fence about whether the MP changes were too extreme, we'll see how that plays out, but THM and CON definitely needed some changes in order to make this game challenging.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxLex
My point is that not every complaint that hits the forums is really legit. It's people losing their s^#t because something didn't go their way. Just because I call someone on their histrionics doesn't mean I'm SE's personal ball washer. Same goes for anyone else who has a bit of a /rolleyes moment at some of these complaints.
By the way - how the hell did you pull all of that from me suggesting he/she use the target nearest NPC key? I was suggesting one way to actually solve the problem. Your weird retort doesn't even make sense. -
07-22-2011, 04:45 PMNeptuneYou talk a lot of crap Jennestia but here you are crossing the line. FFXIV was designed as a 100% SOLO game. 100% Not even 99% solo. They said countless times how you can solo any class, any mission, the whole main scenario, solo to cap, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. At no point, whatsoever, did anyone from the dev team ever say there would be content restricted to parties. So suck on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennestia
To me, the term white knight designates someone who is like someone with blind faith. See you are blind because you just said it is false that this was a soloable game. You are not working on a full appraisal of the situation. We understand your side - and it's offensive. You should appreciate the concerns of others because supporting them will ultimately lead to you having a better entertainment experience. You are ill.
OP is exactly right, what the hell are you lot thinking flaming people for talking about flaws? It's like in my bug report thread where people were flaming people that were having problems WITH THE GAME CRASHING.
Your behavior is aligned with people in a cult that defend their cult leader of crimes. You're too invested to see clearly. You need to step back. Let go of your sense of dignity. We don't care about your reputation. We care about how you treat people in the future. Many people here are willing to forgive. Just think of others.. -
07-22-2011, 04:48 PMSuzakuCMXI remember a lot of talk about casual players but none about solo outside of leves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune
-
07-22-2011, 04:51 PMGabbaGabba
theres a big difference between a whiner/complainer/moaner/troll than someone who critiques and applies logic to issues.
saying something is wrong with this, somethings wrong with that, rage, i quit.....without saying why its wrong or actually giving it any thought is why theres "white knights"
wait maybe 24hrs while things settle down and people figure things out before saying somethings broken and needs fixing. -
07-22-2011, 04:53 PMKataomoi
In all honesty, even as a FFXI and XIV fan who probably defends the games more than they deserve to be defended, I don't believe in blindly assuming every change SE will make is going to be good. For those who think they need to bash anyone with a dissenting opinion of a change, it hurts the community in addition to making progress taboo. There are many issues with the current system, and perhaps the development team is way ahead of us in getting it straightened out, but at this stage it deserves a good deal of the complaints people have.
Complaints aren't ALWAYS whining, and defending the game isn't always being a white knight. Personally, I'd like to see some more constructive conversations going on. My 2 cents. -
07-22-2011, 04:54 PMAbriael
Why all the whiners?
No MMORPG has ever survived without nerfs. No matter how much brainless people think that a developer can make everyone happy in little lala land. Trying to make everyone happy is the worst enemy of balance. Anyone that complains about nerfs IS a whiner, and deserves to be exposed as such.
"Complaints" aren't necessarily valid just because you say they are.
By the way, i soloed perfectly fine today. Maybe someone just needs to learn to play.
PS: If you say that an auction house is between the "Things that matter", you don't have the slightest idea of what this game needs. Scratch that, of what ANY MMORPG needs.
We already have an Auction house. It's called Market Wards, and it works basically like an Auction house. The fact that you'd want SE to waste resources on implementing something else just because you have the delusion that something called "auction house" would work magically that much better to be placed between the "things that matter", you aren't a whiner. You simply lack a brain. -
07-22-2011, 04:55 PMNeptuneYou have been pardoned, for I have seen your soul, and it is good.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
-
07-22-2011, 04:56 PMSuzakuCMXOk, but where is all this talk about all aspects of the game being able to be solo'd that I missed?Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune
-
07-22-2011, 05:13 PMNeptuneDev team interview, http://ps3.ign.com/articles/991/991483p1.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
"the heavy team-play aspect of FF11 has been deemphasized"
Dev team interview, http://www.ffxivvault.com/question-and-answer.php
"FFXI was built firmly on the premise of the party system, but FFXIV will try to be more supportive of solo play and any of the other varied things that users would like to do."
Dev team interview, http://www.ffxivorigin.com/content/p...nch-party-154/
"Right now, the game is made so it is possible to solo"
Tanaka, famitsu, http://www.final-fantasy-14.org/inte...romichi-tanaka
"Firstly, compared to auto battle, this battle system has more room for customization and strategy. Commands are personally chosen by the player. In FFXI, because of the jobs, partying was a necessity. Depending on the circumstance in FFXIV, I can either go solo or join a small party."
Tanaka, http://www.swaggerffxiv.com/2010/09/...march-forward/
"Guildleves are designed to encourage party play."
Tanaka, http://www.1up.com/previews/final-fantasy-xiv
"While FFXI has changed over time, it's still party based," Tanaka adds. "For FFXIV, if you want to play solo you can. If you want to play in a party you can. If you want to jump in play for 40 minutes or for long sessions you can. We'll offer different play styles for many different people." -
07-22-2011, 05:15 PMSuzakuCMXThankies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune
But 3 of those were Tanaka, who is no longer in charge, so those aren't relevant as of this patch, and the first 2 say nothing about everything being able to be solo'd.
However I do agree that as of right now, the difference between solo efficiency and party efficiency is too harsh :P But it's as simple as tweaking SP rates. -
07-22-2011, 05:21 PMAvaSince you need it spelled out for you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigercub
Targeting system is not fine, but I am so glad you don't have issues, because it's really a pain for us that do. I bought a controller when this game first came out, a really good controller actually. The brand new Logitech F710. It comes fully capable with macros and everything.
I played up until about a week ago with the controller, I chose to switch to kb/mouse because using the controller promoted lazy play. I found that switching to the keyboard to reply to chat was a hassle and because of this I tended to ignore chat altogether. I also found that as a healer, targeting specific individuals in clutch situations for a fast single target heal was borderline impossible. Knowing they were removing AOE heals, I decided to learn kb/mouse since heal -> click unit-frame is a much more efficient way to heal someone in a clutch situation. But after switching, I learned targeting for *everything else* is awful.
If I were a pugilist and just had to engage a mob, run up, and use abilities, that wouldn't be so bad. But when I need to target an enemy, throw my dots up, then switch to myself to heal, the problems become apparent. My first, and probably biggest problem is related to the action bar and how it functions in combat. It really screws up targeting. I have up/down mapped to two mouse buttons, and I have my heals on bar2, my debuffs on bar1. So let's say I engage with bar1 active, I double click my target and cast the appropriate debuffs. But I just took damage, so I need to swap to my heal bar, so I push *down*. What happens? My bar doesn't switch. It instead changes target to myself. So from here I need to first double click myself, THEN push *down*, then press my heal, then click myself again. That's a huge PITA for one heal, isn't it?
My second issue is related to the camera and how it's so restrictive in combat. And first let me say, no I don't use auto-target lock because the camera being locked makes this even worse. Let's say I engage multiple monsters during a leve (I had no choice, pack of 2). The two targets clump up but one of them is slightly behind it (the name of mob2 intersects the model of mob1). Well, with FFXIV's targetting system, you cal click either the body of the monster, OR the name. So in this situation where the name and body overlap, it becomes very difficult to select the proper target without the use of TAB. And when we use TAB, there is the issue of multiple idle monsters on the screen and having to cycle through unnecessary targets. In addition, if I have two monsters engaged, due to the restrictive camera, it's difficult to switch target at all with the mouse due to your character name consuming a large portion of screen estate. The issue of player name could be resolved by simply turning off the personal player's name.
Does the system work? Sure. Is it effective? It could be, probably easier for the DoW classes. But this is not a standard targeting system. Some things in games SHOULD be standard, this is one of them. I can get by the way things are, but I do hope that down the line SE fine tunes it so that the issues I have become resolved, I am sure others experience the same frustrations. -
07-22-2011, 05:24 PMSuzakuCMX
The only problem I have is that Up/Down changes targets as well as action bars, but if you already lock on by engaging it only changes the action bar so I learned to do it that way.
IJKL changes the camera angle by the way, so not sure what kind of uncommon incident you get into where you can't switch the angle to be able to target what's behind something else.
EDIT: Oh and you can switch targets with the left/right arrows keys too if you don't have the action bar selected and active. -
07-22-2011, 05:38 PMTigercubWe're getting away from the point. I was trying to explain that opposition to some of the complaints is not necessarily white knighting. Whether I agree with you or not is irrelevant, the point is I sure as hell didn't come to that conclusion because of blind fanboyism. Don't mistake someone who thinks you've lost perspective for someone who is white knighting. I simply think many of these issues are small (or even nonexistent) in contrast to the myriad other problems with the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ava
Do I disagree with you about the control scheme? Yes, I have no problem doing anything with it, be it selecting the right mob/character, healing one character in a crowd, taunting extras, or whatever. Is it because I'm a white knight? Hell no. This game is crap, I'm not here to defend SE.
Perhaps targeting is not the best example since it's more about opinion. But people complaining about Archers getting "nerfed"? Yeah, I'm just going to /rolleyes, really. You could not pay me to care.