Tougher Locations

I have said this in various posts before but I want to bring it up again as a suggestion or debate. Could some future locations have tougher monsters similar to how Final Fantasy XI had. I am not talking about Notorius Monsters, nor am I saying all locations but a few that would make even the best equipped feel uncertain to fight alone. There would need to be a purpose for players to want to go to these locations and probably need a different type of content but I would like to to experience this again. I know this game is not going to be Final Fantasy XI-2 so some ideas for content that offers replay value and a sense of danger.

What do you guys think?

A few examples of locations and content from myself and others.

Conquest - Myself
Shadowlord Castle - Taruranto
Necrohol of Nabudis - Inanna
The Feywood - Inanna
Nabreus Deadlans - Inanna

Agree. We definitely need areas like the shadowlord castle or similar, place a level 50 can't fight alone.

Eorzea is basically a little kid playground, as it is now.

It would be nice. Actually the ffxiv 1.0 had random tough monsters just roaming around. Sure there were notorious monsters too, but also just generic monsters 20++ levels above even the highest level just waiting for a good snack to come by.

I'd love something like that. They wouldn't even have to drop anything neat or even give experience. But just maybe they'd be more engaging than those monsters that throw heavy on you in basically every zone. Because when that happens, I feel no urgency, no threat of death. I could surely dismount and dispatch them all (as could anyone), but I just don't want to, because it would be boring. Now if the same monster cast heavy on me, and could catch up to me and brutally murder me....then maybe, my heart might race a little and I'd try harder to get away. But really, when a monster puts heavy on you, they can't even catch up to you most often... and even if they do...they hit you for maybe 2% of your health... ; ; And so if I kill one, I don't feel like a hero, I feel like a bully...

Totally agree. There is nowhere in the whole world of Eorzea do I need to be careful. I'm not just talking about when I'm in i90+ gear, I'm wiping beastmen and Garleans out in i40ish spirtibonding gear.

Also, along with stronger enemies in general, I'd like more of an open world punishment for dying. Maybe an extended weakness, or no teleports for a period of time. Because as it stands now there are actually situations where it's favourable to just kill yourself when your Return is on CD to get a free ride. Death should always be viewed as the ultimate thing to avoid.

I like the conquest idea, maybe tie it into the new hunts system and somehow with the treasure map system too. The could even give low amounts of tomes or somesuch as trade-ins for CP if they did. I do miss FFXI areas tho what with the possibility of a mob ganking you lol. Not a threat in this game.

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Originally Posted by TeganLaron

Totally agree. There is nowhere in the whole world of Eorzea do I need to be careful. I'm not just talking about when I'm in i90+ gear, I'm wiping beastmen and Garleans out in i40ish spirtibonding gear.

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Oh, you can say that one step further. Myself and lots of people I know spiritbond in crafting gear and maybe that is what you mean too. For those who don't do this, I'm talking about gear with no damage stats at all or even vitality. Gear with no useful battle stats. I go out, fully equipped in this stuff, with only a weapon and kill mobs that are my same level, often many at a time. I never have any trouble at all... Essentially it's the same as fighting naked. :/

As far as the open world is concerned, you can fight naked.... :x Eorzea is a world where clothing is optional! I see people sometimes get to 50 wearing a few pieces of starter race gear. While most people figure out how to equip gear on their jaunt to 50, not everyone does!

I would definitely like more of a sense of danger in the open world!

I wish this would happen, especially that the game's idea of open world difficulty it a heavy or a paralysis debuff which forces you to roll your eyes, step down from your mount and kill stuff. Or just stand around and have mobs hit and hit till debuff wears off and you go.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

Agree. We definitely need areas like the shadowlord castle or similar, place a level 50 can't fight alone.

Eorzea is basically a little kid playground, as it is now.

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You are not the adventurer you were when you started. Try re-rolling an Alt and take a walk through Northern Thanlan and come back and tell us how much of a little kid's playground it is. You're a warrior of light now, you're meant to be one the biggest and power powerful warriors around. So naturally Eorzea is less threatening to you now.

Since SE may think open world tough place = every mob can cast heavy, I'm afraid to ask for more.

XI was balanced differently and ramped somewhat strangely. At level 10 in XI you could solo Tough (1-3 levels higher than yourself) mobs depending on your job. By level 20 it started becoming difficult to solo Even Matches. By 30+ a lot of jobs couldn't handle Decent Challenge mobs comfortably or at best could down one before having to rest up. Two at once was death. This was a mechanic to push you towards exploring in parties. Nothing in Castle Zvahl was more than 1 or 2 levels higher than 50 when it was put in the game. FFXIV has been designed assuming people will be travelling more on their own.

I personally relish the idea of having locations where you need a healthy dose of caution. It's fine to keep areas where you can basically faceroll everything that annoys you, but we need some genuinely challenging enemies in later areas that give you that sense of achievement when you get through it unscathed. Bring back the old Invisibility potions / sneak powders that FFXI had. It would actually give us alchemists a job!

Moreover though, it would give people a much needed challenge outside of instances where you could place some interesting new quests and nice little easter-eggs. I still fondly remember the day I unlocked access to Lufaise Meadows in FFXI and visited Blueblade Fell, where you can overlook the city shown in the opening. Sadly, FFXIV lacks little touches like this, which is a real shame because it really adds to the sense of being part of a much wider world which is sorely needed right now.

For all its faults, 1.0 did a better job at making you feel part of something huge. The world was vast, if not particularly varied in places. Far superior to the corridor-like zones we have now in terms of scale, but at least the revamp makes each area count for something.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

For all its faults, 1.0 did a better job at making you feel part of something huge. The world was vast, if not particularly varied in places. Far superior to the corridor-like zones we have now in terms of scale, but at least the revamp makes each area count for something.

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The world might have been vast, but it was all the same - big expanses of nothing with the same texture and environment map copied and pasted repeatedly. And large sections of those zones were just padding to make it huge for volume's sake. Hence they were filled with ridiculously high level enemies, simply because, quite frankly, the player had zero need to even go to those areas, mostly given the fact the game was largely unfinished even by patch 1.23.

Those extra areas were just there for possible level cap increases and storyline expansions that never eventuated, hence they had to populate those areas with something. And the best way to ensure players didn't go there was to have level 99 mobs that would be difficult for even a full party to take down. All Yoshi has done is not even bother with that nonsense and just hasn't included the 'higher level' zones yet until the level cap is raised. Considering we're still missing the West Shroud, most of Coerthas and the whole southern section of Mor Dhona around Camp Brittlebark, it's obvious those areas will be added later after the raising of the level cap beyond 50, and populated with relevant dangerous enemies accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

XI was balanced differently and ramped somewhat strangely. At level 10 in XI you could solo Tough (1-3 levels higher than yourself) mobs depending on your job. By level 20 it started becoming difficult to solo Even Matches. By 30+ a lot of jobs couldn't handle Decent Challenge mobs comfortably or at best could down one before having to rest up. Two at once was death. This was a mechanic to push you towards exploring in parties. Nothing in Castle Zvahl was more than 1 or 2 levels higher than 50 when it was put in the game. FFXIV has been designed assuming people will be travelling more on their own.

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forgot to say that for some jobs you could get ganked by easy prey which was lower in level.

But on a serious note all those dangerous areas in XI were great as it was fun to try and get in those areas for treasure coffers. However I would love to see the treasure maps being used in this fashion bring in a more lucrative map where you have pretty much no option but to have a full group of pretty good geared classes treading carefully against maybe lv 55-60 elite mobs. Pull more than one will probably cause a wipe etc. Rewards would be great however I would say no gear as to not break normal end game content but a nice supply of myth + sol and gil items. Maybe even with the next tier of crafting make some mats exclusive to this.

I don't know how that would work, since most people don't travel together much usually solo.

Though if they can work it where you have to in a open world area content that has to be helped by people "all the time"

I say "all the time" because if it don't its a bad idea, because people who beat that content wont come back if they find it to annoy them or too tough.

I do want open world content though least mix it up, dungeons are getting dragged out.

I could work with both dungeon and open world. I would say make some Notorious monsters that have a low drop rate of a item like ffxi that's what I wanna see and don't make it rare/ex I like competing versus others for items.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

I don't know how that would work, since most people don't travel together much usually solo.

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I think that's kind of the point, at least I took it to be. People don't want to be able to storm imperial bases or beastmen strongholds single-handedly. It would be nice to actually need help sometimes in the open world.

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Originally Posted by Arcaloid

Since SE may think open world tough place = every mob can cast heavy, I'm afraid to ask for more.

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It's not really an skill every enemy can cast.
It is a penalty for get hit in the back while riding

It need a bit work, like throw you down after the third hit

I like this idea.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

All Yoshi has done is not even bother with that nonsense and just hasn't included the 'higher level' zones yet until the level cap is raised. Considering we're still missing the West Shroud, most of Coerthas and the whole southern section of Mor Dhona around Camp Brittlebark, it's obvious those areas will be added later after the raising of the level cap beyond 50, and populated with relevant dangerous enemies accordingly.

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That just implies that the new areas will be yet more face-roll content with mobs which will become pitifully weak at level 60+. That's not what I want.

We need GENUINE tough enemies so that even at your new max level cap they could be considered dangerous opponents. I'm not talking about the occasional easily-dodged FATE boss, I'm talking grunts to be feared. FFXIV seems to be the only MMO which doesn't have any. Making areas challenging to get through also makes them fun and rewarding. Not everything has to die in under 10 seconds.

Getting aggro in 1.0 :

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.6080...272611&pid=1.7

Getting aggro in 2.0 :

http://stickerish.com/wp-content/upl...ingWhiteSS.png

I personally hate this idea with a passion.

I just want to get to where I'm going and do what I need to do there. If I'm required to have to kill 20 monsters on my way there with the possibility of death, it's gonna be a major pain in the ass to do anything in this game. This is what dungeons are for, you (usually) can't just run right passed all the mobs straight to the boss room.

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Originally Posted by Shamo_Lomenzo

I personally hate this idea with a passion.

I just want to get to where I'm going and do what I need to do there. If I'm required to have to kill 20 monsters on my way there with the possibility of death, it's gonna be a major pain in the ass to do anything in this game. This is what dungeons are for, you (usually) can't just run right passed all the mobs straight to the boss room.

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You can't 'usually' run into an enemy stronghold and single handedly annihilate every single enemy either, but in FFXIV no one seems to have a problem with that.

"Oh, those Ixali that everyone fears? Yeah, I totally just wiped out their entire colony..."

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

You can't 'usually' run into an enemy stronghold and single handedly annihilate every single enemy either, but in FFXIV no one seems to have a problem with that.

"Oh, those Ixali that everyone fears? Yeah, I totally just wiped out their entire colony..."

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I prefer it that way. I don't want to have to gather up a party just to get through one map without dying. Believe it or not there are times that I want to play alone in an MMO (ie: main story quests, leves, etc.) and being forced to party up just to get through a zone to get to where I need to be is annoying and stupid to me.

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Originally Posted by Shamo_Lomenzo

I personally hate this idea with a passion.

I just want to get to where I'm going and do what I need to do there. If I'm required to have to kill 20 monsters on my way there with the possibility of death, it's gonna be a major pain in the ass to do anything in this game. This is what dungeons are for, you (usually) can't just run right passed all the mobs straight to the boss room.

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That's not what I want either, as that's not what I do now anyway because I'd prefer to just sneak past them. But I'd like to be sneaking past them out of fear of knowing they could whoop my ass if they wanted to, not because they going to give me Heavy and make me listen to the damn battle music.

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Originally Posted by Shamo_Lomenzo

I prefer it that way. I don't want to have to gather up a party just to get through one map without dying. Believe it or not there are times that I want to play alone in an MMO (ie: main story quests, leves, etc.) and being forced to party up just to get through a zone to get to where I need to be is annoying and stupid to me.

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I can understand and I too appreciate that FFXIV offers a variety of ways to play. I can't always do the dungeons because of time being limited so I do other things and this works well for the game. I would not want this to be a roadblock for players to reach their goal but I am thinking of this being a different type of content for players who would enjoy the thrill of danger. :)

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Originally Posted by Felis

It's not really an skill every enemy can cast.
It is a penalty for get hit in the back while riding

It need a bit work, like throw you down after the third hit

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True. I agree with the idea that you should be penalized for running away from a enemy. I seem to remember "Run Away" as always being a option in the random encounters in most Final Fantasy games, but it often had really bad penalties so you only did it if you knew you would die anyway. Often, if you chose to run away, it would fail and they enemy got a extra turn. So if you were already in trouble, you just sealed your fate. It was basically luck if running away would actually save you.

Instead of heavy, I think it should be a steep demerit of some kind... Hmmm...

For instance:
1)They inflict a poisoned wound that won't stop bleeding. Unless you get to someone that can help you (like, dunno, maybe a camp?) you will die.
2)They pin you down completely. To heck with "heavy", what is that anyway? If someone injures you to make you lame/limp, you aren't gonna move very fast at all, or probably you can't even move.
3)They call for help. Think of sandbox type games like GTA. If the enemies call their friends, you'd be in trouble. However most of the time their friends just stand around staring at rocks. You could be right next to them, but you are just enough yalms away that ...what, do they need glasses? Why can't they see you....

Agree! Take a mechanic from Xenoblade and have some monsters appear during certain circumstances that is 50-60lvls higher than the player characters just standing there ready to blow them up if they accidently aggro them. Make their drops REALLY good aswell if some !!!!!!!GROUP!!!!!!!!! manages to beat so it is a fight worthy for the top FCs/LSs to tackle.

just getting new areas would be nice...instead of more dungeons......and more dungeons....need something a little different. Good thing new ct is coming soon.....kinda different I guess.

In Final Fantasy 12, zones like the Necrohol of Nabudis, The Feywood, or Nabreus Deadlans would be great for ARR. Mist covered and claustrophobic, high level enemy full areas where you cannot see far and minimaps/maps do not work.

Another suggestion is a location like the Great Crystal from FF12 where you get no navigational help in repeated, identical zones.

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Originally Posted by Calevr

I have said this in various posts before but I want to bring it up again as a suggestion or debate. Could some future locations have tougher monsters similar to how Final Fantasy XI had. I am not talking about Notorius Monsters, nor am I saying all locations but a few that would make even the best equipped feel uncertain to fight alone. There would need to be a purpose for players to want to go to these locations and probably need a different type of content but I would like to to experience this again. I know this game is not going to be Final Fantasy XI-2 so some ideas for content that offers replay value and a sense of danger.

What do you guys think?

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You sir have my vote. Nothing is more silly than dying, and not feeling scared of it cause all you have to do is to pay the teleport fine, spend time getting back there, and beat it.

Death as well should be revamped, for a little thrill.

so yeah, please put hard mobs into roadblocks that everyone needs - perhaps community will fight alongside each other for once! <-- not fates and atma as a solution thank you ^^

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Originally Posted by Inanna

In Final Fantasy 12, zones like the Necrohol of Nabudis, The Feywood, or Nabreus Deadlans would be great for ARR. Mist covered and claustrophobic, high level enemy full areas where you cannot see far and minimaps/maps do not work.

Another suggestion is a location like the Great Crystal from FF12 where you get no navigational help in repeated, identical zones.

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This is very interesting. I like the lore behind it. If the public had access to challenge somewhere like this, this would be great!
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Necrohol_of_Nabudis

At this point, it wouldn't be too bad to have some areas reserved for iLV 50-90 enemies. They would be useful for spritbonding purposes in the future. I'd have some trouble endorsing the release of tougher beast tribe enemies unless the daily quests can be done without running across such beastmen (I'd hate to have to fight iLV 90 Kobolds just to get to an area in U'Ghamaro for a level 48 quest). Expanding the beast tribe strongholds would be a decent workaround to such a conundrum, though, and could serve well in higher-level daily quests in the future.

A tought enemy MUST give great rewards for killinh it or it becomes just a nuisance in the open world grindfest.