Tanks that don't tank

While leveling up alt jobs using leveling dungeons I have noticed that a fair percentage of the low level tanks that end up in the story dungeons have no idea how, or desire to, tank.

If new to MMOs they look at the classes in character creation and want to play a melee character that wields a sword or a big axe. I don't think they actually understand that they are not just DPS in heavy armor.

They happily play the gladiator or maurader class solo and it feels like a melee DPS to them. They get to the point in the main story where they need to do a group dungeon and suddenly people are harping on them about keeping agro, spamming flash, etc...

I'm at the point now where if every pull is an adventure and friendly advise about agro tools is gong unheeded I just quit the instance. Better that than stick around for the drama.

In the lower content I have completed a few dungeons with me resorting to healer tanking but this really isn't teaching the tank anything and is probably hurting more than helping

Do you think there should be a warning for new players choosing the tank class stating that it is an advanced role and if they don't have MMO experience perhaps they should start out with a different class?
Most MMOs allow you to DPS as a tank class but in FF14 this isn't even an option.

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Originally Posted by Gnova

Most MMOs allow you to DPS as a tank class but in FF14 this isn't even an option.

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i agree 100%, especially on higher lvl stuff with warriors. they strap on some dps accessories and think the contribution is noteworthy but its really not lol i think to better handle this se needs to job lock certain accessories like fending strictly for tanks, striking/maiming strictly for melee dps, casting for blm/smm. and so on.

So you'd kill STR offtanks in endgame because newbies can't read?

damn straight lol im also noticing dps and healers using more and more fending gear to try to up theyre item lvl to get into certain things, thats highly gay strategy imo

I don't think you understand what I wrote, so I'll go into more detail.

Offtanks in endgame don't get hit by much, so they invest heavily into STR accessories. WAR can also get away with 30 STR allotment. If you restrict STR accs to DRG and MNK only, you take away a strong niche and one of the only methods of customization in those horribly itemized system.

Or you could give them some friendly advicerather than leave them continuing in ignorance.

i understood plenty. Imo a small price to pay to get other classes from ilvl boosting with unproductive gear. in terms of endgame content where off tanks arent getting hit theres not much of that. titan, ifrit, leviathan extreme as well as rafflesia all have both tanks taking damage though tank swaps or just regular mechanics. the off tank in my static does that and i constantly have to hold back to not strip hate on tank swap scenarios because hes too busy trying to be a high hp dps instead of tanking like he should be.

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Originally Posted by Ecosmith

Or you could give them some friendly advicerather than leave them continuing in ignorance.

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The problem is that people DO offer them friendly advise but even basic advise like "spam flash two or three times at the beginning of a fight" is completely ignored. I cast one cure and the adds are stuck to me for the remainder of the fight.

It is really frustrating for the healer to be dealing with adds the entire fight while the gladiator's MP bar is sitting t 100% or OP is not used for the entire fight.
In the "learning dungeons" it doesn't bother me when I have to deal with some agro problems as long as I feel the tank is at least trying.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

So you'd kill STR offtanks in endgame because newbies can't read?

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Did you even bother to read the post?

"Do you think there should be a warning for new players choosing the tank class stating that it is an advanced role and if they don't have MMO experience perhaps they should start out with a different class?
Most MMOs allow you to DPS as a tank class but in FF14 this isn't even an option."

Where in that is a suggestion to change anything?

They should and a gear check

Maybe because outside of the dungeons there is generally ZERO point in using the tanking abilities such as Flash or keeping aggro, so of course there's a transition. Unlike DPS, the tank class's job and playstyle completely changes upon entering group content.

Now that being said, if that same tank is still making stupid mistakes after getting a few dungeons under his belt, then he's just a moron.

You are questioning the skill of NEW tanks at LOW LEVEL dungeons....
So instead of helping them out and give friendly advice to help them you rage quit? Awesome class right there.

And about your warning message? There's already a huge shortage of tanks, so let's discourage hopeful future tanks even more by saying "If you don't do your job perfectly everyone will hate you, kill yourself naow noob!"

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Originally Posted by Gnova

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Actually, a lot of the quests for classes, and the cutscenes help teach you what your role is all about (unfortunately a lot of players skip these). For GLA, it told me my job was all about tanking. Thing is, if someone wants to roll a tank, they should be able to. Yea, could it use a big bright neon sign of "YOU ARE NOT A DAMAGE DEALER!!"? Absolutely. But, the cutscenes and quests are tooled (IMO) to teach you how to play your class and role).

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Originally Posted by Gnova

Did you even bother to read the post?

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Context. I wasn't responding to you.

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Originally Posted by Woggers

You are questioning the skill of NEW tanks at LOW LEVEL dungeons....
So instead of helping them out and give friendly advice to help them you rage quit? Awesome class right there.

And about your warning message? There's already a huge shortage of tanks, so let's discourage hopeful future tanks even more by saying "If you don't do your job perfectly everyone will hate you, kill yourself naow noob!"

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Does anyone ever actually read posts before they respond?
I've said very clearly that I offer friendly advise and try to help.
But there are times where the advise is completely ignored.

At that time the option is either to start typing in caps and being a little rude to get the point across or to leave the dungeon. I play games for fun not to be a jerk to to other players so I choose to leave.

I'm also very forgiving of tanks that aren't all that great at their roles but I think they are trying.
Whenever someone in a group makes a snide comment about their gear I'm the first to say that they can worry about gear at level 50.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Context. I wasn't responding to you.

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That is what the quote function is for.

Well aren't we uppity.

^ Is this to the OP or your latest post? I can't tell, I didn't use the quote function.

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Originally Posted by Gnova

That is what the quote function is for.

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Quote is only needed if you know or think the person youre replying to isnt the post above yours. In the one you first responded to, he was replying to the post directly above him.

See: Me quoting because the post above mine isnt the one Im replying to.

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Originally Posted by ForteXX

Quote is only needed if you know or think the person youre replying to isnt the post above yours. In the one you first responded to, he was replying to the post directly above him.

See: Me quoting because the post above mine isnt the one Im replying to.

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I guess I am used to forums with higher activity. On those ones there is a very good chance there will be a dew posts made while you are writing something. If that rule was followed on those forums it would make the thread indecipherable.

I think there is definitely some disconnect with jobs and learning them.

I queued into a Brayflox last night and we had a paladin tank who must not have known where his flash button was. At all. Literally. He'd attack a monster and leave the rest untagged, and eventually I didn't have a choice but to cure him or let him die and that resulted in the untagged monsters all on me, and I couldn't handle it and ended up on the ground. This happened three times, and I admit I was in a worse mood than usual because I'll often offer advice - but if by thirty something you haven't learned to flash... Come on. Just... come on. I left the group - just didn't have the patience for it last night. I felt badly afterward, but some people I'm not sure can be taught.

The other part of the problem is squarely on SE. The design of the classes need some tweaks.

1. Both classes should have their own taunt, and it should be one of the first abilities they get before grouping. Period. I can't believe that they seriously thought that level 22 on ONE class was appropriate for a provoke. Someone dropped the ball on that one.
2. Abilities that come through the job questline should be either mandatory to level, or at LEAST should appear in the abilities list as a grayed out ability so that players look and see, oh, I should have a ranged enmity builder. I wonder where I get that?
3. Aggro shouldn't be so hard to establish - I'm looking specifically at Gladiator\Paladin here and SE's insane idea to make a "single target" tank and an "AoE tank". Really a terrible idea and it doesn't really help anyone at lower levels. I know there's a subset of folks who are going to come in here and declare Paladin perfectly OK at lower levels and we should all L2P - but every single article, blog, and guide I have read says the same thing: you're going to struggle a little on AoE threat. I agree. I've seen it as a DPS and a healer and I've now experienced it leveling Gladiator. It's a problem that Marauder doesn't have NEARLY as much of a struggle with. It's disproportionate and unnecessary.

SE does need to do some redesign here. XI's provoke only on one class was a bad idea (especially since that job couldn't even tank) and its only saving grace was that it was a level 5 ability. Provoke being level 22 here is absolutely ridiculous. No other game that understands group mechanics has a design like this. It's no wonder people playing tank classes don't understand their role. SE doesn't even understand the role.

It's not really a problem just about tanks, experience says every new player is bound to make mistakes while playing the class they chose. If someone with endgame experience decides to play another class, then the are bound to know, at least a little bit, what they are supposed to do, on the other hand new players think they are doing fine if not perfectly. I found a couple of SMN's I assumed were new to the game since it was their only class to 50 spamming Ruin II in Titan HM, after I suggested them to use Ruin I because it's more efficient, they said "No, it takes too long to cast lol", instead of asking why or how is that more efficient, they chose to ignore my advice. Sometimes people listen, sometimes they won't. I try to play as friendly and helpful when dealing with people who are obviously new or not as good as they think, OP's frustration is understandable.

I'm not sure it's the learning curve or how the game explains things I think it is just a case that someone wants to play a melee class with a typical fantasy weapon (sword axe) and are then tossed into a role they have no desire to play. Why is there no DPS class that use traditional fantasy rpg melee weapons?
They suffer through the story dungeons with overgeared groups pulling them through and then just carry on with their solo play.

It also doesn't help, even though it isn't a primary reason, that the guildhests pop at level ten and the maurader doesn't have any tools to actually carry out his role. What it seems to show you is pick one mob, beat on it, and let the group worry about the rest.
Healers can heal, DPS can DPS, and tanks can... Be worthless.
If that is what you do at level 10 then why not at level 30?

Every time I DF with a Gladiator that doesn't have a shield equipped, I take a shot. I take an additional shot for every 5 levels past 15 that they are.

I'll tell you, running a dungeon as the healer after six shots is much more tolerable but I really start pitying my party after that point.

This seems like a good place to link this:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...23#post2117923

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[Suggestion] Please make the Level 15 Class Quest a Dungeon Reguirement

So, I get what happens. New players get overwhelmed with what to do/which side story leads where/where they need to go next for their main story etc. But I have done far far far too many level 15-19 (yes even Halatali) with folk who have yet to complete (and therefore learn it's skill) there level 15 class quest. This is especially problematic with Tanks as in both cases, their level 15 skill allows them to Pull mobs from afar AND build Enmity. Not only that, it's their ONLY ranged attack/Enmity grabber until Provoke at level 22 (PLD)

Skills many players are missing at in these dungeons (all learned via their class quest)
GLA: Shield Lob =+enm skill/ranged attack.
MRD: Tomahawk= +enm skill/ranged attack.

CNJ: Fluid Aura= knockback+bind. Less useful (and can annoy) to most party's but can help knock a mob away from a healer/knock it back to the tank. Occasionally useful in group play.

ACN: Topaz Carby. Not a great group Carby....but can save the day if tank dies/party needs a pseudo tank.
THM: Scathe. A spell they can cast while moving/ filler spell while regening MP in Umbral.
BRD: Repelling Shot. A distancing move to assist a Archer in getting out of a bad spot quickly.

LNC: Piercing Talon. A ranged attack. Useful to start attacking tanks target/or in the rare instance you'd need to pull (or for solo play).
PGL: Touch of Death. A DoT

And yes, I get some of these are underwhelming in party play/more useful solo. But others (especially the tank moves), make party play esp. low level, much more fluid.

So in order to make sure players realize, 'Hey, you get a skill from doing the class quest' Maybe if would be most prudent to lock them out of their first dungeon, Satasha, until they complete it. This way, at least when they enter, they have all their possible skills available on their toolbars...still not going to fix if they know how to use them, but just entering with the right tools is a start.

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This was just my suggestion in maybe helping newer, lower leveled players make sure that they have all their skills available to them+ maybe understand just a little bit about their role in the group before entering the dungeon (guildhests are supposed to teach you dungeon techniques too btw...but nothing 'forces' you to do those either until you're level 50....so)

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Originally Posted by Gnova

The problem is that people DO offer them friendly advise but even basic advise like "spam flash two or three times at the beginning of a fight" is completely ignored. I cast one cure and the adds are stuck to me for the remainder of the fight.

It is really frustrating for the healer to be dealing with adds the entire fight while the gladiator's MP bar is sitting t 100% or OP is not used for the entire fight.
In the "learning dungeons" it doesn't bother me when I have to deal with some agro problems as long as I feel the tank is at least trying.

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I agree with this completly if you are new and are struggling then thats ok take advice and try and do better. It is the ones that ignore everything anyone say just go into a pack and only hit the mob the whole time with out a care in the world that are a pain.

I recently started tanking and I am finding it hard but I always try and hold hate with everthing even if the dps are being a pain

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Originally Posted by Floppytop

but I always try and hold hate with everthing even if the dps are being a pain

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Good!

That aside though, actually, the aggro mechanics are really important to success in dungeons, but they're never ever explained in-game. For some players, especially those familiar with MMOs, enmity is a 'duh'. For many players though, there's just this off "increases enmity" on some tank moves, and that's about it for in-game mentions and explanations.

There is a lot more the game could do to teach key mechanics like that.

Question from an mmo/ffxiv noob: as a dps role, should I be switching targets now and then when doing dungeons in order to not sap "hate" from the tank? Very new to this type of game and I just completed my first try at Satasha(sp?) a few days ago so any advice is welcome! :cool:

That's kind of a tricky question but usually if a tank in low level dungeons isn't able to keep hate on one enemy they probably don't have it on the rest of the pack lol.

If the enemy you are fighting is almost dead, it's best to just finish it off so it's less incoming damage but aside from that it's probably better to stick to auto-attacks for a moment until your tank cements hate on themselves, assuming they are playing their class correctly.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

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Duly noted, I'm just hoping the game does a little better job of helping me become aware of it's mechanics in the near future. Tyvm!

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Originally Posted by Grenwal

Question from an mmo/ffxiv noob: as a dps role, should I be switching targets now and then when doing dungeons in order to not sap "hate" from the tank? Very new to this type of game and I just completed my first try at Satasha(sp?) a few days ago so any advice is welcome! :cool:

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Switching targets is actually the LAST thing you want to do. Most of a tank's enmity tools are single-target, so he's likely to have a lot of hate on the target he is fighting... and not very much on the others. As a result, if you switch targets, you'll pull hate on whatever he's not fighting.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

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So should I share his target or pick off the stragglers (i.e. mobs that are healing his target)? Thanks for your patience
Edit: just found this and it explains my role and the on screen meters quite well: http://eorzeareborn.com/enmity/

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Originally Posted by Grenwal

Question from an mmo/ffxiv noob: as a dps role, should I be switching targets now and then when doing dungeons in order to not sap "hate" from the tank? Very new to this type of game and I just completed my first try at Satasha(sp?) a few days ago so any advice is welcome! :cool:

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It depends on your role IMO.
If you are an arcanist and not switching targets to spread dots you aren't doing your job IMO. The tank should recognize they have a arcanist/summoner/scholar in the group and make sure his aoe hate is a priority.
If you are more of a single target DPS then assisting the tank is ideal because you draw a ton of hate on the single mob and the healer appreciates when the first mob goes down. Ultimately that will increase DPS because the healer now has time to DPS more and heal less.

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Originally Posted by Grenwal

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Generally, you should share his target unless told otherwise. If you focus your DPS on a mob healing his target, you WILL wind up tanking that mob. Tanks take MASSIVELY less damage than DPS, especially at higher levels (assuming they are geared correctly), so you tanking a monster on the side means more work for the healer.

There is an exception though. Commonly in boss fights, there will be additional monsters (adds) that spawn. Typically, these monsters can be killed before they damage DPS too much, and/or the tank can't move the boss without endangering the party (many boss monsters have conal attacks that must be faced away from the party). As a DPS, you will almost always be needed to attack these additional monsters, even if it means tanking them.

You've been a lot of help, thanks so much! Happy hunting :D