Bard's DPS in endgame.

Hello, I main in Drg but recently I had to switch over to bard for the group.

We are on turn 8 and our dps is quite competitive. I would stay at usually #2 after the SMN. But as bard I am doing 15~20% less dps than our monk and far less than SMN since I am doing voice requiem and constant requiem for him. Also, I do not get the drg debuff as a bard.

My drg has tidal spear and ilvl 95 and my Brd also has tidal bow and ilvl 90.

Is this normal ? or Am I doing something horribly wrong.

I do not see much to do as a bard other than keeping straight shot and 2 dots up while weaving in CDs and repelling + blunt arrow.

Id appreciate any inputs.

How can you even tell who is doing the most damage overall at completion?

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How can you even tell who is doing the most damage overall at completion?

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Pretty sure they calculated it manually with an abacus. It's kind of besides the point though.

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I do not see much to do as a bard other than keeping straight shot and 2 dots up while weaving in CDs and repelling + blunt arrow.

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Yeah that's about it really, keep your DoT's up, keep straight shot up and burn your CD's when you can/it's safe.

What you're seeing is pretty normal. A solid Melee DD will out damage a bard. Keep in mind you're not there just for DPS though. Also, yeah, the drop in iLvl would be making a difference too.

Yoshi-P did say that Bard's DPS is lower to provide mobility. Actually that's not true but it sounds better than what really happened, there was a massive community outcry because Bard could top the DPS charts since they technically have no down time, they can attack and move on dodge heavy fights despite their toolkit being only fairly limited for a DPS, so all weapons in the Bard's armory had their innate damage lowered so they can never really top the DPS charts unless they are constantly spamming abilities and everyone else is busy running around.

Maybe if you got super lucky with Bloodletter procs you could outdamage someone...

Just think of the damage boost you provide via Foe's as part of your own DPS! You'll feel much better, I know I do. :cool:

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Originally Posted by ErnestoGiovanni

so all weapons in the Bard's armory had their innate damage lowered so they can never really top the DPS charts unless they are constantly spamming abilities and everyone else is busy running around.

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Excuse the ignorance due to hiatus, but this actually happened? When?

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Originally Posted by fanservice

Excuse the ignorance due to hiatus, but this actually happened? When?

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The first major rebalance after 2.1 nerfed Bard's Bloodletter and Misery (I think?), along with our cross class abilities (bfb and internal release having less potency). This was the same patch with the WAR buffs, Copperbell/Haukke Manor HM, and Crystal Tower.

BRDs can do a pretty good Burst damage but outside of that its pretty slow. I recommend you use HQ Mega-Potion of Dexterity. That CAN act like a Hawkeye for you at times. I haven't been to any of the 2nd coil turns but if there is a lot of melee aoe and dodging to be done, a BRD can potentially out dps melee characters. The numbers may look small on your screen but when added up it can be pretty significant. Do all that you can to boost your damage on Barrage as that is your strongest buff. 3 Auto attack per 1 hit. You can get lucky and get 300+ crit dmg per auto attack for a total of 900 dmg+. Foes Requiem will boost your DoT damage as well as Flaming Arrow. So just cause its lowers elemental resistance does not mean it doesn't benefit you. As givemeraptors said, your also boosting your own damage with Foes Requiem.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

The first major rebalance after 2.1 nerfed Bard's Bloodletter and Misery (I think?), along with our cross class abilities (bfb and internal release having less potency). This was the same patch with the WAR buffs, Copperbell/Haukke Manor HM, and Crystal Tower.

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Yeah I did clearly notice the BFB and IR readjustments. The bloodletter and miser end nerfs went over my head if that actually happened.

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Originally Posted by fanservice

Yeah I did clearly notice the BFB and IR readjustments. The bloodletter and miser end nerfs went over my head if that actually happened.

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The bloodletter nerf was just a tooltip error iirc. Nothing got changed, but people freaked out for a bit since it happened at the same time that the bfb and ir nerf went in.

IMO the reason for the bard nerf (and all the people thinking bard was super OP) was Titan HM. A large portion of the community was stuck on that fight at the time, and it was messing up most of the other classes because of the amount of movement involved. Once people started getting into coil bards fell behind because they didn't scale as well as the other classes. I'm hoping we get a small buff at some point in the future, especially with blm's getting buffed in the next patch.

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Originally Posted by ExiaQuanta

Foes Requiem will boost your DoT damage as well as Flaming Arrow.

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Foes does NOT affect Windbite, Venemous Bite, or Flaming Arrow at all lol. That aside, just starting out at i90 you should be doing around 320 on T8 as BRD, increasing as your ilvl increases.

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Originally Posted by xEscaflownex

Foes does NOT affect Windbite, Venemous Bite, or Flaming Arrow at all lol. That aside, just starting out at i90 you should be doing around 320 on T8 as BRD, increasing as your ilvl increases.

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I was just about to point out this exact same thing, lol. The ONLY buff that even affects Flaming Arrow is Hawk's Eye. Raging Strikes and B4B don't even do anything for it. I get sad sometimes thinking about that T.T

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Originally Posted by xEscaflownex

Foes does NOT affect Windbite, Venemous Bite, or Flaming Arrow at all lol. That aside, just starting out at i90 you should be doing around 320 on T8 as BRD, increasing as your ilvl increases.

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How is that, relatively speaking to other DDs?

Thank you for all the inputs.

I understand bard is a support job that brings various benefits to the raid and it is fair for bard to do less damage than the pure dps jobs.

So to conclude, Would you guys agree that bard doing 20% less damage (without the drg debuff) in average compared to others is doing a good job? or should it be more close to 10%.

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Originally Posted by Psyca

Thank you for all the inputs.

I understand bard is a support job that brings various benefits to the raid and it is fair for bard to do less damage than the pure dps jobs.

So to conclude, Would you guys agree that bard doing 20% less damage (without the drg debuff) in average compared to others is doing a good job? or should it be more close to 10%.

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If your DPS was "only" 10% lower without a DRG, then MNK would be virtually usueless. Even now, to me the best combination of DPS for the T8 is BRD+BRD+BLM+SMN+DRG, or even 2MN instead of the BLM.

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The first major rebalance after 2.1 nerfed Bard's Bloodletter and Misery (I think?), along with our cross class abilities (bfb and internal release having less potency). This was the same patch with the WAR buffs, Copperbell/Haukke Manor HM, and Crystal Tower.

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I think it was actually 2.1 where IR and B4B got nerfed, we also lost access to the 10% damage down debuff, it got moved to WAR.

The weapon damage drop was pre 2.0 I believe. Bow have always had lower base damage than other weapons in ARR.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon1

If your DPS was "only" 10% lower without a DRG, then MNK would be virtually usueless. Even now, to me the best combination of DPS for the T8 is BRD+BRD+BLM+SMN+DRG, or even 2MN instead of the BLM.

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Double BRD is pretty wasted in T8. Single BRD with 2 melee DD anyday.

Agreed. Bards got nerfed (back in early December was it not?) due to people complaining. They had a point though. Bards for example could top dps (easily) and refresh mp, and silence (turn 2) and boost caster dps etc.. Why not bring 2 bards or even 3 to Coil then.

I do think the error was made before launch where SE (the new dev team) wanted to have the original, classical job names back. So Conjurer now would evolve into a WHM, thaumaturge into a BLM and gladiator into a PLD etc. These all made sense to us. Then you would automatically say "ah archer will be a Ranger. Wait what, Bard!?"

Then we got a ranged dps with support abilities which in itself sounds overpowered and it was..

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Bards for example could top dps (easily)

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This has never been the case in ARR, weapons were nerfed before 2.0. The myth still seems to persist though that BRD's were some magic top tier DPS without peer before 2.1. Not true, even before B4B and IR being nerfed a quality melee or magic DPS would always do better than a decent BRD. The only real discrepancy is that BRD's can move while they DPS, giving them the upper hand in certain fights.

In reality the B4B and IR changes didn't really impact BRD's DPS too much anyway, it just takes some of the cream off our burst DPS. Obviously the loss of 10% damage down debuff obviously didn't effect our DPS at all.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon1

If your DPS was "only" 10% lower without a DRG, then MNK would be virtually usueless. Even now, to me the best combination of DPS for the T8 is BRD+BRD+BLM+SMN+DRG, or even 2MN instead of the BLM.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Double BRD is pretty wasted in T8. Single BRD with 2 melee DD anyday.

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I agree with Ooshima. We run T8 with pld/mnk/mnk/drg/brd/smn/whm/sch to great effect.

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

I agree with Ooshima. We run T8 with pld/mnk/mnk/drg/brd/smn/whm/sch to great effect.

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If they keeping their mana, sure. If Requiem is (almost) always up, the DPS is a bit higher.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

a quality melee or magic DPS would always do better than a decent BRD.

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Um, isn't this obvious? Shouldn't the comparison be between two equally skilled players on each job?

^ agreed
"Quality" Melee and "Quality" Bard should be the comparison, no?
Bards can in fact do more damage but always comes down on how well a players knows their class.
Bard alone as a class is a support class so i really cannot understand why people are so high up saying that their Monk or dragoon does more damage,
well no kidding. I have had someone show me his damage numbers with a parser ( he was higher geared and a dragoon) and i had Mage's ballad up,
like um no kidding dps should be lower on Bard in that case, if not then melee need to learn their class better, lol
This whole thing of Bard is lowest dps simply does not always hold true

Bards generally possess high amounts of burst damage (2nd only to the Black Mage) as well as bringing likely the most utility of any DPS job, lastly they also have the most mobility of any dps job. To compensate for this they suffer with relatively lower sustained DPS potential. This isn't much of a problem as the amount of utility you bring and the damage increase you give to the casters (and indirectly the melee by granting them TP if needed) more than makes up for your lower base dps.

On T8 our Bard is generally last on the list (tank withstanding) so don't worry about it that much. Bard is much more about focusing on how you can best assist the raid group than pulling the massive dps. Not to say it isn't important to dps properly however, Bard damage is still good, just not the best.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Um, isn't this obvious? Shouldn't the comparison be between two equally skilled players on each job?

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The point was that Bards weren't innately OP it was that when they calculated in the down time for dps running and thus unable to act, bard was still firing away and the dps was steadily increasing the more dodging others had to do. Bard was released with more dps abilities but was planned with more utility like stone skins and cures. Check out the opening sequence, the bard jumps down and cures Derplander. It was a last minute change to make bard a dps since the had no ranged, non caster, DPS. I believe bard wont change much, it has to balance dps and utility with Yoshi-p never wanting anyone to feel that any one job is necessary for an encounter. Ultimate balance is really hard to do.

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Originally Posted by ErnestoGiovanni

The point was that Bards weren't innately OP it was that when they calculated in the down time for dps running and thus unable to act, bard was still firing away and the dps was steadily increasing the more dodging others had to do. Ultimate balance is really hard to do.

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Would be nice if they could at least buff themselves (Flaming Arrow, Venomous Bite, Windbite, and Bloodletter) with Foe Requiem though. An ilvl 90 BRD vs. an ilvl 90 MNK is a difference of (at best) 300 and 360 dps. Allowing them to occasionally buff themselves up to 315 or so (physical not affected) wouldn't kill balance; even if the Bard will more often keep optimal dps than any melee, it's rare that they would ever sink to the Bard's level completely.

Edit: Tried comparing numbers on Spyres that I was the only one to have DoTs on when doing Levi EX. Foe seemed to increase Wind/Venom from around 170ish dmg ticks to 195ish.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Double BRD is pretty wasted in T8. Single BRD with 2 melee DD anyday.

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We run with two BRD's, SMN, BLM, DRG. Instead of popping Dex pots, we pop X-Ether, and can keep Foe Req up for most of the fight. The SMN and BLM last night on T8 were both almost over 400 DPS, with me being close to 360, and the other BRD (an alt) was around 300. Ultimately, there are several comps that work, and as long as the ultimate goal is reached (boss is dead), it shouldn't matter too much. With that said, with skill and gear being equal, I would never expect a BRD to be at the top of the DPS unless there is a lot of movement.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

The first major rebalance after 2.1 nerfed Bard's Bloodletter and Misery (I think?), along with our cross class abilities (bfb and internal release having less potency). This was the same patch with the WAR buffs, Copperbell/Haukke Manor HM, and Crystal Tower.

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Bloodletter and misery weren't changed at all the Aoe buff from Rain of death was though instead of what was it -10% enemy def now its -10% enemy evasion which is kinda worthless but yea bfb and release got weakened as cross class.

Also yea your dps will be lower then Mele idk why smn is out dpsing you unless your full timing Foe like you said then that would explain it. songs cause -10% dps for you right off the bat.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

Agreed. Bards got nerfed (back in early December was it not?) due to people complaining. They had a point though. Bards for example could top dps (easily) and refresh mp, and silence (turn 2) and boost caster dps etc.. Why not bring 2 bards or even 3 to Coil then.

I do think the error was made before launch where SE (the new dev team) wanted to have the original, classical job names back. So Conjurer now would evolve into a WHM, thaumaturge into a BLM and gladiator into a PLD etc. These all made sense to us. Then you would automatically say "ah archer will be a Ranger. Wait what, Bard!?"

Then we got a ranged dps with support abilities which in itself sounds overpowered and it was..

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Bard is one of Yoshi's favorite classical jobs and frankly has shown up real often. Probably equal to Ranger if not more. So that's why it showed up first.

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Originally Posted by VallisRaine

Also yea your dps will be lower then Mele idk why smn is out dpsing you unless your full timing Foe like you said then that would explain it. songs cause -10% dps for you right off the bat.

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foe does NOT decrease dmg
MP and TP songs decrease it by 20%

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Originally Posted by Geobryn

foe does NOT decrease dmg
MP and TP songs decrease it by 20%

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lmao you got me i didn't look at it right

Was actually 2nd highest in t8 last night on BRD. I was surprised considering I ran TP and MP songs more than I had planned to. Had our SMN been there I surely would have finished well behind her. Was about 50 below our MNK. Probably mainly the weapon helping me. I was the only DPS with a i110 weapon. MNK and DRG had i100. BLM pug had i95.

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Originally Posted by RinchanNau

Was actually 2nd highest in t8 last night on BRD. I was surprised considering I ran TP and MP songs more than I had planned to. Had our SMN been there I surely would have finished well behind her. Was about 50 below our MNK. Probably mainly the weapon helping me. I was the only DPS with a i110 weapon. MNK and DRG had i100. BLM pug had i95.

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I couldn't even imagine being second in the parse with my group. >-O I'm usually bottom; but I'm pretty easily abused when it comes to ballads. Which I don't mind, Mage Ballad will cost me 5-15 DPS while giving my summoner an extra 50-60 since he can go crazy.


Turn 8 for us is usually - Monk > Sum[If I mage ballad for him for full rotation] > Drg > Myself

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Originally Posted by Logistical

I couldn't even imagine being second in the parse with my group. >-O I'm usually bottom; but I'm pretty easily abused when it comes to ballads. Which I don't mind, Mage Ballad will cost me 5-15 DPS while giving my summoner an extra 50-60 since he can go crazy.


Turn 8 for us is usually - Monk > Sum[If I mage ballad for him for full rotation] > Drg > Myself

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Yep. Similar for us previously. Though until our DRG gets his i110 upgrade I expect to be 3rd. Doesn't hurt that he died in our run yesterday, lol. I've also got it fairly easy as our DRG is on homing/brainjack duties which is likely to affect his rotation at times. This may change as our config may be changing soon-ish. Then I'll be on homing/brainjack, most likely.

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Originally Posted by Logistical

Turn 8 for us is usually - Monk > Sum[If I mage ballad for him for full rotation] > Drg > Myself

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I'm guessing your SMN needs MP because it's a really long fight? Otherwise I don't see how they would run out unless they were spamming Ruin II.

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Originally Posted by blowfin

The myth still seems to persist though that BRD's were some magic top tier DPS without peer before 2.1.

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Pre 2.0 there were a lot of those cases where BRDs could top dps or atleast out-dps melee so easily. Turn 1: tp starvation, no tp song because you wanted mp song for you healers. I'm talking i70 here.. Not when full groups started to hit i77 and up. T2: well, don't need to explain. T4: BRDs have some serious AoE dmg. T5: close call, they shine in phase 4 and 5 where melee shine in phase 2 and 3.

I don't think it's a myth when most of the fights favoured having bards. A community will use whatever is less stressfull like some groups still favour 2 PLD's cause double HG is sweet to have on some encounters. Is PLD the better tank? I don't think so. Does the game create this situation? Yes, I do think so.

Wow, I can't believe so many people are still so misinformed about Bard.
Bard losing ~4% DPS doesn't somehow take it from top DPS to last. They were never anything but last unless the Bard was playing with bad players.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

I'm guessing your SMN needs MP because it's a really long fight? Otherwise I don't see how they would run out unless they were spamming Ruin II.

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If he is using his full rotation he will eventually kill his mana if he doesn't use energy drain. Our fight is only about 8:55ish.

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

Wow, I can't believe so many people are still so misinformed about Bard.
Bard losing ~4% DPS doesn't somehow take it from top DPS to last. They were never anything but last unless the Bard was playing with bad players.

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Hi Titan EX would like to talk with you. A Bard (at equal ilvl) lower than any BLM or Melee should just L2P.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon1

Hi Titan EX would like to talk with you. A Bard (at equal ilvl) lower than any BLM or Melee should just L2P.

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I'm not a bad bard, and yet I can do a hell of a lot more on DRG and MNK (especially if I'm able to keep GL up due to certain timings in phase changes) in Titan. While Bard can nearly run at dummy-dps throughout that fight, the other classes don't lose much either if played well. Even BLM can be rotated to place either an instant or half cast in the plume-movement, losing almost no dps. The Greased Lightning loss, which the Monk him- or herself has little control over except watching percentages to have a Raptor move go off just before the change or before being jailed, is the only truly justifiable loss, and it still can't drop you to Bard dps. The main advantage Bard has in that fight is in the burst available to it for adds, which is *still* lesser to the sheer power of DRG, PB Monk, or BLM AoE, and advantage over melee when bombs are on tank-line. That and it tends to get one or two extra hits in per phase that the others don't just due to clip casts at end and having instant reach at start.

Edit: With Disembowel up, Bard does get quite a bit closer, though under equal skill and gear I've only seen it beat (likely proc-unlucky) BLMs, assuming that the Bard doesn't purposely short them of Foe Requiem.