After healing T8, I feel that critical isn't very helpful even for scholar?

I've managed to maintain my MP at 5000 (full) until the 6th tower, and most of the time I'm only using physick. I very rarely have to use adloq, and I think for really long fights consistency is key? Starting to doubt the amazingness of crit as I used to think for scholars..

Seems like you never used your dots, eh? Also... Have fun without Adlo in t9 ;) you will love Crit Adlos there!

As in, bio and stuff? I did 11000 damage in total for T8, and we won by a very tiny margin (just started casting atomic ray, we had about 2.5 seconds to go). I know it's loveable (like how it nullifies suppurations in ifrit XM) but I usually find critical quite unreliable. I'll give it a try once we get the time to practice T9, just curious how it all works out..

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Originally Posted by Richiealvian

most of the time I'm only using physick. I very rarely have to use adloq,

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Honestly with massive MP pool + Aetherflow it's better to spam Adlo. I mean, I haven't reached T8 yet but I almost always find it's better to spam Adlo for crit since I practically never run out of MP everywhere else. Ionno.

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Originally Posted by Richiealvian

I've managed to maintain my MP at 5000 (full) until the 6th tower, and most of the time I'm only using physick. I very rarely have to use adloq, and I think for really long fights consistency is key? Starting to doubt the amazingness of crit as I used to think for scholars..

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The management comes with comfort. The more you do the fight and get the mechanics down to memory, the easier it'll be to manage your mp. I've had T8 on farm for a while now and neither myself or my WHM need ballad to get us through it. You'll be fine with time. Just make sure you actually make an effort to understand the bosses mechanics and timing.

The last 2 towers are a bit intense, I think I eventually end up with 1500-2000 MP left. I do use adloq on the offtank when the dread comes, but even then I don't get to use adloq much because physick is enough and yeah I agree as we get more and more used to it we use less MP. When you first beat T8, do you need any ballad at all? I personally start dropping to the 3k range when allagan field starts..

I'm sure your WHM and his/her MP were very happy to see you spamming Physick and 'overhealing' MP with your Aetherflow charges. Adlo crits do add up throughout the fight, but even if it didn't crit, it's essentially advisable to use it with caution, because Adlo is "consistent" even without the critting. I do a hefty amount of Adlos in T8, yet ballads are not needed. Instead, this makes the WHM's life easier and as such - their need for a ballad also drops in proportion. It's not just you, but how you can contribute to the sustainability of the other healer, with your superior sustainability. Just keep tabs on the fight and the situation and burn resources accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Richiealvian

The last 2 towers are a bit intense, I think I eventually end up with 1500-2000 MP left. I do use adloq on the offtank when the dread comes, but even then I don't get to use adloq much because physick is enough and yeah I agree as we get more and more used to it we use less MP. When you first beat T8, do you need any ballad at all? I personally start dropping to the 3k range when allagan field starts..

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I did have ballad on our first kill. Though, on our 2nd kill week, me and my whm worked out a cd rotation with Eos that pretty much ensured we'd never get close to oom. Used Selene on our first kill which did make me do a little more work overall. Using Eos to benefit my whm worked extremely well.

Hmm, I've never overhealed MP with aether charges, to be honest. I do adloq, but only on big hits and shield worthy hits such as people entering towers twice, allagan field, or offtank dreadnought, and tanks that stomp on more than one mine but other than that it's pretty much brought me from 3.8~ to 4.8k, and I do keep tabs on the WHM's MP and if I see him get low I pushed myself a bit more, probably allowing me to get to 2.8~3.5k MP pre tower 6 but so far it's worked out pretty well. I just don't think stacking crit helps you THAT much, and consistency on the other hand (a good mix of piety/mnd/vit even) has helped me more than crit has.

But you get that awesome fuzzy feeling when an adloq does crit, though..

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Originally Posted by Richiealvian

I just don't think stacking crit helps you THAT much, and consistency on the other hand (a good mix of piety/mnd/vit even) has helped me more than crit has.

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Well, while you have a good point about consistency, you should also remember that no matter the gear you stack crit with, it is still going to have MND which obviously in conjunction with weapon damage is your most consistently scaling factor in gearing.

PIE is a good safety cushion, but not one you should ideally gear towards. (Even then, many pieces you'd go for Crit-building will still have PIE). DET is pretty great for static gains, but honestly, I don't see myself building towards DET in this new content, where an Adlo-crit gives so much time and utility for you. The times I've been begging RNGesus for an Adlo-crit far outshadow the times I've thought to myself, "if only my physicks/adlos/embraces did 20 more per heal.." or "if only I had more PIE..." (lol).

Yeah, only now have I realized how good the MND stat actually is. All the sub stats are really just there for you to indulge yourself on, but for long fights they won't make or break you, surprisingly. If anything, I see spell speed, if stacked up to 1.55 cast time would be amazing (from using presence of mind on a WHM).

It would take like 4000 spell speed to get cast times down that far though.

Mostly what has been said is true. Crit is very good to have for Sch, no doubt about that. I would just add that once your adlo crits, it gives both you and your Whm partner some time to breath. You can apply some dots or do whatever si helpful for your party at that time without worrying too much about tank getting dangerously low. That is very nice thing about crit adlo beside saving mps both for you and your healing partner obviously. You don't have to rely on crit for consistency, but in the long run, it will make life easier (even more consistent one would say) for both healers. And don't forget of course it's not only adlo, but succor (initially weak, but crit makes it a lot better), pet's actions and other stuff (dots for example) also makes a difference. So don't lose all love for crit because you can't directly see those big numbers instantly making wanted impact. They do matter.

I said to build spell speed and piety, I got comments like these 2 stats are the worst for scholars. Why is that? I don't get it. I prefer consistency and I hate to rely on RNG.

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Originally Posted by wizzed

I said to build spell speed and piety, I got comments like these 2 stats are the worst for scholars. Why is that? I don't get it. I prefer consistency and I hate to rely on RNG.

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Because they're still the worst and you're still wrong.

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

Because they're still the worst and you're still wrong.

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And you are all over the place.

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Originally Posted by wizzed

And you are all over the place.

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I'm a healer, forgive me for visiting the healer forums.

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Originally Posted by wizzed

I said to build spell speed and piety, I got comments like these 2 stats are the worst for scholars. Why is that? I don't get it. I prefer consistency and I hate to rely on RNG.

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The amount of speed you would need to meaningfully react to "stuff happening" is far beyond what player gearsets can hope to achieve. There are very, very few situations where being able to get a heal off ~.10 to .15 seconds faster would save someone. And if it's not saving someone, what's the point? Don't want to ride the GCD for heals when you don't need to; just drains MP faster.

I'm not gonna touch PIE debate because my opinion that it is a nice stat in the 2 non-crit slots we can pick it for is still unpopular.

Crit isn't "relying" on RNG. It's just that Det doesn't add that much and "base" (ilvl/MND/weapon damage, no other secondaries in account) healing is enough for everything.

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Originally Posted by wizzed

Why is that?

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Speed is terrible because it has a horrible conversion rate and doesn't benefit your fairy, whereas Crit and Det both benefit your fairy. PIE doesn't benefit your fairy either, which is why it's generally considered to be worse, but I like it because it means more Adloq spam, which I, personally, think contributes more than Det, even if Det adds to your fairy as well.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Speed is terrible because it has a horrible conversion rate and doesn't benefit your fairy, whereas Crit and Det both benefit your fairy. PIE doesn't benefit your fairy either, which is why it's generally considered to be worse, but I like it because it means more Adloq spam, which I, personally, think contributes more than Det, even if Det adds to your fairy as well.

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Well, that and Aetherflow. Aetherflow magnifies the effects of the Piety you do have, meaning you don't need as much to get to sustainable levels of mp. That said, you might be onto something by using piety; for every 100 extra mp they start with, a scholar gets 700 extra mp to use over the course of a ten minute fight (100 starting mp, 400 from natural regen, 200 from 10x Aetherflow). That's a little over four physicks turned into adlos (or most of a resurrection), for the cost of 13 piety's worth of stats.

WHM get 500 mp over the course of a ten minute fight for every 100 mp they start with, since Shroud doesn't scale, sadly.

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Originally Posted by Menae

snip.

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That, of course, depends on if you're using that MP. It's a tricky balancing act.

imo Piety is a stat that's relatively decent during progression and gets weaker as gear levels get higher and fight familiarity increases, during any given tier. The more gear and familiarity you have, the less MP you'll 'waste', and therefore the less MP you'll use overall.

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

The more gear and familiarity you have, the less MP you'll 'waste', and therefore the less MP you'll use overall.

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The advantage of PIE, though, isn't in MP consumption over the course of the fight but in allowing you to behave less efficiently over that same period of time. Fights aren't going to continually get longer as content progresses (10-15 minutes is about as long as you can ever practically have a fight last) but mp pools will get larger which means that, as gear/content progresses, the value of PIE comes in replacing Physicks you would have used because of their efficiency with Adloqs you want to use because of their increased effect (and pre-healing capability).

All 4 of the secondary stats are fundamentally useful because they increase your throughput. Speed is the worst because it increases throughput at the cost of efficiency. Crit and Det are good because they increase throughput without influencing your efficiency. PIE is good because it increases your throughput by letting you get away with being less efficient actions without affecting your resource management.

Piety also allows you to fit in more DoT spells without running out of MP for healing.

When referring to MP wasted, I wasn't specifically referring to just you, but as a whole. I mean, having to res someone in battle obviously costs more MP than you're probably used to, and as time goes on fewer people will die, thus less MP wasted. Same goes for wanting to keep Adlo up on random raid members who may be slow to grasp mechanics, or having to heal people who screw up mechanics.

Otherwise, I agree. Though in a perfect world, we wouldn't need PIE at all, since we should strive to be as efficient as possible.

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

Though in a perfect world, we wouldn't need PIE at all, since we should strive to be as efficient as possible.

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I dunno, in a perfect world, you might very well want more PIE to throw out more damage spells and shorten fights, since you should be efficient with time as well as MP.

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Originally Posted by Menae

I dunno, in a perfect world, you might very well want more PIE to throw out more damage spells and shorten fights, since you should be efficient with time as well as MP.

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In a perfect world, Eos/Selene could solo heal T9 and all content before that :P But I digress, we have the same opinion on Piety regardless and I agree with your assessments.

To be honest, I don't think that PIE is that important, even as WHM... I play WHM as my main class, and I occasionnaly switch to SCH when the PF requires one, or when I don't feel like healing and let Eos/Selene do the work for me (only for low-gear dungeons).
I have to say that the more I play SCH, the better I play WHM, and vice-versa. Playing WHM teaches me to be very careful with my MP, my aggro (regen + medicaII when adds pop, and I'm dead) and when I switch to SCH, I always have 85-90% of my MP pool, because I am very conservative.

PIE is great, but not necessary, really. If you 'waste' your MP casting Raise ONCE, it's fine, and you should never run out of mana because of this. If you have to raise more than that, this is NOT your problem (unless you let someone die, which is another story... Sometimes, a player is better dead than consuming his healers's MP...)

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Originally Posted by Coldea

To be honest, I don't think that PIE is that important, even as WHM...

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It *isn't* important as a WHM because it doesn't really add to your healing effectiveness appreciably. Because Shroud is static regeneration, PIE is basically a static contribution per fight rather than a tangible increase to your regeneration as a whole. As such, the best way to increase both your throughput and efficiency is by using crit and det (and some speed to get more FreeCure procs).

For SCH, on the other hand, PIE actually increases your regeneration thanks to Aetherflow. Because it tangibly increases your regeneration, it actually allows you to consume more mp/GCD while remaining resource stable.

That's the difference. PIE on a WHM just means that you can consume the same mp and last slightly longer; PIE on a SCH means that you can consume more mp and last the exact same amount of time.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

It *isn't* important as a WHM because it doesn't really add to your healing effectiveness appreciably. Because Shroud is static regeneration, PIE is basically a static contribution per fight rather than a tangible increase to your regeneration as a whole. As such, the best way to increase both your throughput and efficiency is by using crit and det (and some speed to get more FreeCure procs).

For SCH, on the other hand, PIE actually increases your regeneration thanks to Aetherflow. Because it tangibly increases your regeneration, it actually allows you to consume more mp/GCD while remaining resource stable.

That's the difference. PIE on a WHM just means that you can consume the same mp and last slightly longer; PIE on a SCH means that you can consume more mp and last the exact same amount of time.

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Piety increases your regen rate for WHM as well. Base MP regen is 2% of maximum mana per tick; it works out to 40% per minute for both classes. SCH get that plus Aetherflow, so 60% per minute. It's still a boost in regen for WHM, just not as much as it is for a scholar; similarly, it allows WHM to slightly up their mana consumption over the same amount of time, though not by as much as a scholar could. Over a ten minute fight, a WHM gets 5/7 the amount of mana from piety that a scholar would, assuming the scholar uses Aetherflow 10 times; given an infinite fight length, the whm would get 2/3 the mana from piety that a scholar would. Not as powerful, but still worth using.

Except what Kitru said still applies. Because fights will usually be lasting nearly the exact same time each time regardless of your own throughput, you can calculate exactly how much more MP you have for that period of time by getting more PIE. And usually it is highly unimpressive and requires fights to already be hitting their upper limit in terms of time to get anything appreciable.

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Originally Posted by subteraneanbird

Except what Kitru said still applies. Because fights will usually be lasting nearly the exact same time each time regardless of your own throughput, you can calculate exactly how much more MP you have for that period of time by getting more PIE. And usually it is highly unimpressive and requires fights to already be hitting their upper limit in terms of time to get anything appreciable.

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Kitru's argument, or at the very least the impression I got from his word choice, was that a WHM doesn't gain regen with Piety while scholars do. That is patently false. A WHM doesn't gain as much from Piety, but even a SCH gets more regen from base ticks than they do from aetherflow. He then further argued that scholars can use piety for throughput as opposed to regen. This I agree with; I haven't done the math to determine whether it's mathematically a sound option compared to det/crit, but even if not optimal, it's a way to use excess of the stat (until you are regenning to the point where you literally cannot spend as much mp as you have coming in. The part I disagree with is that Piety is worthless as a WHM for throughput. It's not as powerful, certainly, but WHM can still use it for throughput too - if their regen allows it, they can replace a few Cures with Cure2s instead of spamming Cure praying for Freecast. Or they can throw out DoTs. Finally, as Kitru alluded to in an earlier post, Piety doesn't affect the throughput OR longevity of Eos, Selene, or Lustrate. The only healing spell a WHM has that isn't affected by Piety is Benediction, a much smaller percentage of WHM healing than Lustrate or the faeries are for a SCH.

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Originally Posted by Menae

since Shroud doesn't scale, sadly.

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Infight manareg do scale with piety ;) Someone calculated, that the break even point for permanent cure1 without running oom is at round about 5000MP.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Infight manareg do scale with piety ;) Someone calculated, that the break even point for permanent cure1 without running oom is at round about 5000MP.

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I'm aware of that, Karsten. I've mentioned it several times. But Shroud of Saints does NOT scale with Piety, only with level. It is a flat 1060 mp per use at level 50.

people act like physic cant crit. it's like having an undercosted cure 2 on sch

Physick does crit, but when you're keeping everyone's health on top you heal when their health is reduced by the amount of your normal physick, thus critical physick would just be a slight extra convenience..

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Originally Posted by Zoeila

people act like physic cant crit. it's like having an undercosted cure 2 on sch

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No, it's like having a same costed Cure on SCH. It's the same potency, mp cost, and cast time. The only difference is that it doesn't proc Freecure, which is irrelevant to you but very important to me. If a WHM were to equip a similar gearset to yours (i.e. the same total crit rating, determination, etc.), you'd cast for the same amount on average, and crit the same amount as well.

And critting on non-Adlo heals, while certainly not useless, is not why SCH stack crit. It helps, but it's unpredictable. Otherwise, wouldn't WHM stack crit as well? I doubt I get as much from Stoneskin and Benediction over the course of most fights as you do from Lustrate (the spells for each class which can't crit).

You choose to spam Physick even though Adloquium is better in many situation because Physick spam is enough to get the job done. The same philosophy can be used to answer your argument; it doesn't matter what 2ndary stats u get cuz its enough to get the job done. For those how want to max/min though, Adloquium and crit is the way to go.

I got 1 question to OP. you may get away w/o using it in the first 2 phase but how do your party deal with the last phase without adlo when the Allagan Field is out?
without adlo on the person with allgan field and absorbing the tower explosion. that extra 1.5k when the field goes off. a crit adlo + SS can absorb all the damage form tower and made allagan field a lot easier to deal with.

Crit has always been unreliable. If you can't achieve crazy high 90%+ crit rates then the 100% success rate cutoffs for HPS requirements will always be determined by your non crits. This is because you will always have multiple consecutive non crits over any real duration fight.

The issue is all the other secondary stats are near worthless so why not stack crit. Add some RNG love into the mix.

But you should never give up Mind, Vit or weapon damage for crit.