nice article about tanks

this from massively.
some of this is things I (and others) have expressed on another thread here.
good article about tanks. i too find myself cringing going into a roulette...wondering if i have some maniac in the group.
http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/04...l-fantasy-xiv/

i have never been a slow puller. i pull mobs steady. chain pulls (given everyone has resources high enough to do so). i am not real keen on mass pulls then aoe. i can do it, but not what i enjoy. if everyone plays smart you can clear any dungeon pretty quickly.

As one of those crazy people that actually *has* one of the tank mounts (I was the second on my server by a *day* /shakefist), I'm actually *glad* that it's locked behind a metric crapton of endgame content. The tank mounts/titles should not be thing that people get by playing tanks as their alts (at least not without playing for a very extended period of time). If the tank achieves were easy to get, people would get them and then stop playing their tank. By requiring a substantial investment in the player, you can be damned sure that, by the time you get your WARbear, you're either maining as a WAR or you play it as an alt job nearly as much as your main job (or you are just *really* committed to getting a mount and don't care about what you're playing to get it).

Gating it behind the real endgame also means that it's not just going to be lolfarmed so that you can get it over a week using pug groups while simultaneously requiring that you actually become a *good* tank (seriously, show me someone who has tanked 200 successful EX primals and coil runs that doesn't know how to play a tank and I'll apologize to everyone I've ever pissed off and never insult anyone ever again).

The devs set up those achievements to get people to actually play tanks as their mains because you're not going to get those achieves unless you do actually play a tank more than a token amount of time and can do so competently.

Fancy mounts aren't going to make anyone want to play a tank, be they barred behind high lvl content or given out freely at lvl 30. The current mounts are just another way for people that do endgame to show off in Mor Dhana, nothing more. I don't think the devs can do anything in the game's current iteration to really make people want to play tanks more often for all the reasons stated in that article. My solution would be to up the group size to 5/10/30 and leave the extra spots open to DPS, but that's obviously much easier said than done.

Well Dev can't really change players attitude and I feels that is the root reason why a lot of players do not want to tank. A new tank getting into a new dungeon and getting insulted, scolded or whatever by other players is not exactly encouraging, he might continue tanking for a few times until he can't take it anymore and quit tanking.

Even as an experience player myself, when I level a tank in dungeons that I have done multiple times as DPS I still can make mistake, do bad pull, etc, but fortunately I am in JP server, so most of the time I get JP party that seldom insult other players openly.

The only time I ever got insulted was by an English player in T4, that tunnel vision so much and blame me for DPS mistakes, it really did piss me off considering the guy was from my ex FC.

By the time I am done with my tanking achievement, I definitely not going to tank for anything else but some roulette and my own static, as much as I enjoy tanking it's not worth doing it in DF.

what valho said.
it seems, more than most mmos ive played, that dps especially are very critical of tanks. slightest mistake and the YOU SUCK comments start flying. don't pull as fast as they'd like? YOU SUCK. they pay no mind to the fact that the aggro issues usually come from THEM PULLING first (which should never happen), firing off AOEs like crazy on a tank unfamiliar with the content or considerably undergeared compared to them.
i see DPS not keeping their head on a swivel all the time...and get aggro from patrols, when i have my mobs safely pulled. i dont start saying they suck because of any of that.
its the attitude of the community in this game that needs to change.

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Originally Posted by Rextab

its the attitude of the community in this game that needs to change.

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i'd suggest, get over it or simple ignore those kinda ppl. since its a one time adventure with them, you dont needa bother. next df group got the chance to be different.
ive tanked at every other mmo i played before ff14 arr and i do have to say, its not a ff14 thing ppl are acting like that. such behavior started about 5-6 years ago, LoL/Dota-community invented it (calling ppl noob, or you suck, or what ever that frequently). social medias like fb did their thing to it (everything asap available). of course you'd say its up to us to change that, but you know what: the ship sailed a long time ago. learn to live with it, or die trying.

as for the tanking issue at ff14 arr, i'm with what some others already said:
tank at groups with your friends, fc, ls or static. just ignore the df.

Tanking is only stressful because other players make it stressful. When I run with an excellent group, even when I mess up, or don't know what I'm doing, nice players make it a breezy and fun experience. I still maintain it's not as inherently stressful as people make it out to be.

An interesting article I suppose. I can see why some people might feel that way, but personally I'm the exact opposite of that author. Anything other than tank feels like a letdown.

Yes, there's a lot involved with being a tank. You're a natural leader. Which would you rather be:
- The leader asking others to follow your pace, or stuck behind a possibly bad leader?
- Playing all the various tank duties, or playing "increase my DPS" or "how can I DPS while healing"? Seems boring compared to tank. I play both DPS and healer alts and enjoy them, but it's just ... less.

The mounts are a nothing. They are there for looks only. I have no idea what my progress is toward achieving it. If they made the mount slightly faster than other mounts, or some different reward, then it might matter. Some people care about vanity stuff and some don't.

Three reasonable things I can see done to help this. And have seen done in other MMOs over the years. All require fundamental development shifts however.
- Increase group size. So that tank is expected less than 25%. That way people like me can tank and others can be what they want. Credit Senfei for mentioning this already.
- Offload some of tank responsibility to other roles. For example, crowd control. Currently adds are primarily the tank's responsibility to pick up. Bind, Sleep, and similar are rarely if ever used. Make them useful (preferable to tanking) more commonly.
- Make the positional stuff just slightly less of an "overload". This means like the breath cone attacks that are so commonly aimed at a tank. Small but consistent reduction in frequency -- not a major difference. Balance by increase to other mechanics if necessary, but something that requires less cognitive load on tank.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Tanking is only stressful because other players make it stressful. When I run with an excellent group, even when I mess up, or don't know what I'm doing, nice players make it a breezy and fun experience. I still maintain it's not as inherently stressful as people make it out to be.

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exactly. its not the job itself

I tank and i enjoy pulling fast, keeping everyone on their toes to get the most out of our group and skills. Its one of the main things i love in this game. People get really excited when they see they just triumphed something they didnt think they would be able to previously.

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Originally Posted by Rextab

exactly. its not the job itself

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indeed.

Also, I feel bad for new tanks when I roll as a DPS and you can tell they are literally afraid. Then someone makes a dickhead comment and they play worse because they are scared. So what if you can't speed run your 400th Brayflox Run? Teach them, be patient... make it easier for them if they are already having a tough time. Take a sec to actually examine them... if they at about 5k HP, its a pretty dead ringer that they are inexperienced and if you REALLY have that much of a problem with that, thats a you thing.

Its not always the tanks fault, and it shouldn't be the only job that gets stress via the role they play in game.

I think a lot of the issues are that it's boring to tank. You do lackluster Damage, and your always fighting the same enemies. No tank ever needs to learn anything new in the new dungeons, because they're tuned for ilvl 55 still..

If Square made dungeons engage the tanks more, it would be a more fun job to play. When the Enmity buff was put up, I lost a lot of what made the job fun, because now I can hold enmity on both jobs in my sleep. Tanking is BORING.

The author is a tad cynical imo. The rate at which people demand speed runs and the like seem fairly few and far between outside of PF (just my experience). Also, he fails to mention the gil reward, for roulette which is astronomical. That, and the instant queues, are the reasons why I only ever use my WAR for DR when my favorite job is MNK. 4500+ gil is a lot, especially added with the 1.5k reward at the end, and the amount dropped from mobs, you get approx 7-9k per DR. Do 3 of them a day (some are lower) you make about 20k+ a day, with about 3-4k (probably less) in repairs. That's ~120k a week! Not a crafter's wage, sure, but still a nice chunk of change.

maybe i am just not lucky when it comes to DF. for every one group i get where everyone is nice and polite and people are just having fun (as it should be)...i get at least 3 with some crazy person(s) in them wanting to speedrun. as i have said before i can do speedruns once i am familiar with the instance, but honestly i'd just rather pull at a brisk pace. i can go through most 4 mans in 20-25 mins approx without doing crazy mass pulls.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

Tanking is BORING.

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What can they do to make it more fun though?

I personally would like to see a tank class that plays like the Kinghts from FFT with break abilities. I would also like to see a reflect ability/shield attack that will reflect the AoE damage back at the attacking mob (but you also take the damage). For example, the Pugils use screwdriver which is a cone AoE. I can either run out of the AoE and take no damage, or take the damage and reflect it back to the enemy in the exact AoE shape of the attack (people would have to get out of the way of it).

I think that would make tanking more engaging, less ho-hum in some cases, and allow tanks to DPS while still performing their primary rolle and not breaking the class. It would also be fun to coordinate with groups (using BLSHM as an example), like saying "hey guys I'm gonna reflect Drill Cannons back at the boss, don't stand behind when he casts".

Probably lame to most people but at least its a suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

What can they do to make it more fun though?

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First off, They need to add an Enmity bar under each mob, that will enable you to know if someone is creeping up too close. They could put it under the enemy's HP Bar without being intrusive, or even just a % enmity number, so you know if your falling too close to 49% of the Mobs attention.

2nd, Give tanks more reactionary options, instead of just Rage of Halone over and over and over and over.. Warrior is at least decent since they have combo options available, but Paladin is terrible.. Shield Swipe is a star, But lets get a full Combo chain off a Block or Parry.

3rd, allow tanks to have access to fun abilities. Holmgang was something that Warriors and Paladins were drooling over when we heard about the change they made to it, but the CD is so long, that it's near unusable. Give us the ability to legitimately control enemy positioning. Enough of this "Mob MUST get his hit off on his new target" before attacking you crap, lets us snag him, and put him back in front of us. Allow Cover to let us leap in front of our cover target, give is an AOE Damage reduction shield that shows that our position effects damage being taken by our allies. SOMETHING different than Spam Flash, Use cooldowns one after another, and get beat on...

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

First off, They need to add an Enmity bar under each mob, that will enable you to know if someone is creeping up too close. They could put it under the enemy's HP Bar without being intrusive, or even just a % enmity number, so you know if your falling too close to 49% of the Mobs attention.

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I'll admit I don't have either tank class at a high level.

But the mobs already have a Enmity indicator. Two of them in fact. The one on the mob list tells you an overview "Red Square" == The mob hates you. "Green Circle" == the mob is aware of you but could care less.

Then you have the "detailed" Enmity indicator in the party window. It will actually show you how far behind the others in the list are from you.

So what is hard about clicking on a mob that does not have a "red square" and building back up your enmity?

Like I said earlier I don't have either tank class at a high level yet, so maybe there is something I'm missing.

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Originally Posted by SummerRider

But the mobs already have a Enmity indicator. Two of them in fact. The one on the mob list tells you an overview "Red Square" == The mob hates you. "Green Circle" == the mob is aware of you but could care less.

Then you have the "detailed" Enmity indicator in the party window. It will actually show you how far behind the others in the list are from you.

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WOW! Seriously!??! After playing this game at launch every day until today, and beating every single piece of content up to T8 (4% now) You are telling me there are TWO different ways of seeing Enmity?!?!?! NO WAY!!!! Thanks so much for your golden nugget of knowledge. I have no idea what I was doing before now, but clearly it was not the right thing. /sarcasm



Well them, why not remove enemy HP bars, and Damage numbers dealt and taken too? That info is also visible elsewhere....

I'm suggesting changes that will make the Tank class more actively engaging to play. I don't see why we need to have our attention averted to the enemy list, and the party list in order to know if an enemy is about to leave me. Excuse me for asking for a minor tweak that may just make the game more approachable to new players.

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Originally Posted by SummerRider

I'll admit I don't have either tank class at a high level.

But the mobs already have a Enmity indicator. Two of them in fact. The one on the mob list tells you an overview "Red Square" == The mob hates you. "Green Circle" == the mob is aware of you but could care less.

Then you have the "detailed" Enmity indicator in the party window. It will actually show you how far behind the others in the list are from you.

So what is hard about clicking on a mob that does not have a "red square" and building back up your enmity?

Like I said earlier I don't have either tank class at a high level yet, so maybe there is something I'm missing.

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The red square in the target list is great, but most people don't actually know about the one in the party frame. Hell I didn't even when we were farming Twintania.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

WOW! Seriously!??! After playing this game at launch every day until today, and beating every single piece of content up to T8 (4% now) You are telling me there are TWO different ways of seeing Enmity?!?!?! NO WAY!!!! Thanks so much for your golden nugget of knowledge. I have no idea what I was doing before now, but clearly it was not the right thing. /sarcasm

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Woah, who pissed in your cereal this morning?

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Woah, who pissed in your cereal this morning?

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That's the response that someone got because I think they were pretty clearly suggesting the implementation of a feature that would help less experienced players more adequately.

I certainly don't condone the snappiness, but it kind of comes with the territory of posting in forums. If you snap at or condescend to someone else they will probably do the same thing in return.

I really don't think that most players utilize this information, especially newer players.

Tanking would be so relaxing if it wasn't for all these other people ruining my fine play.

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Originally Posted by SummerRider

I'll admit I don't have either tank class at a high level.

But the mobs already have a Enmity indicator. Two of them in fact. The one on the mob list tells you an overview "Red Square" == The mob hates you. "Green Circle" == the mob is aware of you but could care less.

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To steer this back a bit...

This is a great way to tell if you have hate or are approaching getting hate. It does nothing when you're tanking multiple mobs to give you an idea if someone is about to steal from you. Yes I know you can click on the mob themselves, but clicking through a series of mobs presents it's own difficulty if you have 3+, even with filters up. If they even made one more color or put a glow behind red to show someone else is orange for example, that would be a useful addition to this.

To be honest it was sort of the response that I was expecting. It was why in my original post I freely admitted that I do not currently have a high level tank. The implication I was trying to convey (and either failed or it was missed by the person I was responding to) was maybe it's something that is needed at higher levels, but I didn't see the need for it at this point it time.

I realize it's a different perspective but from the BLM perspective (my main) I don't find it all that difficult to watch what my threat level is for all mobs in a group.

I also agree with Delorean

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I really don't think that most players utilize this information, especially newer players.

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Most players do miss the threat meeter in the party window.

Yeah I've pointed it out to a lot of people in the past, so I totally understand.

As a tank, the colors are great to see if you've missed someone, but it's a binary "we have hate, or we don't" kind of thing since unless someone else is tanking, it's either red or we fail...

With DPS as your goal is to do as much damage as possible without getting hate, it's perfect for you.

I'd love just a little hint of "hey, you have hate, but someone is really close to you". ;)

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

I think a lot of the issues are that it's boring to tank. You do lackluster Damage, and your always fighting the same enemies. No tank ever needs to learn anything new in the new dungeons, because they're tuned for ilvl 55 still..

If Square made dungeons engage the tanks more, it would be a more fun job to play. When the Enmity buff was put up, I lost a lot of what made the job fun, because now I can hold enmity on both jobs in my sleep. Tanking is BORING.

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OMG, its still very fun to be a tank in this game! I enjoy it very much, but alot of very rude and mean people out there......

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Woah, who pissed in your cereal this morning?

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Just an FYI, It was SummerRider. <3

Since I have been in the game the past two months I have noticed several things.

1. No one has respect for new tanks.
2. Tanks don't like to admit they are new.
3. When they do admit they are new they don't listen to advice.

I was honest every time but I experienced all sorts of hostilities from healers and dps. I stuck with it because I knew it was the nature of the beast. But then I went healer and I tried to be supportive since I knew what it felt like to be a new tank. Provide tips and so forth, where patrols are in dungeons, rotation advice, etc. But I fell on deaf ears. I watched my tank die in Dzemael Darkhold 3 different times as he wasn't tanking in the crystal light. Yeah I could have toughed it out but I shouldn't have to just because the tank is ignorant. So the dps followed me and lived while the tank died. The dps got it and were even trying to tell him but still no avail.

I wish there was a code of conduct that people followed but since there are ignorant tanks, I think people's patience has worn thin.

I still tank but I do dread the brayflox speed runs and I always do them on my warrior. I intentionally go into those now with my undergeared healers just to slow the pace down. Not everything has to be zerged.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Since I have been in the game the past two months I have noticed several things.

1. No one has respect for new tanks.
2. Tanks don't like to admit they are new.
3. When they do admit they are new they don't listen to advice.

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definitely no respect for tanks...especially new tanks.
i guess i am different. if im new to content, i admit it. i ask for strats for what people have seen to work with particular encounters, then I do it.
nothing wrong with admitting you are new. everyone was new once. they didn't just jump immediately to their "everyone should worship me im l33t skillz" attitude.
can't stand that.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

... You do lackluster Damage, and your always fighting the same enemies. No tank ever needs to learn anything new in the new dungeons, because they're tuned for ilvl 55 still..

If Square made dungeons engage the tanks more, it would be a more fun job to play. When the Enmity buff was put up, I lost a lot of what made the job fun, because now I can hold enmity on both jobs in my sleep. Tanking is BORING.

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Everyone is always fighting the SAME enemies, everything they do endlessly into the SAME dungeons.. so even DPS and healers are in the same boat.. *shrugs*

How can you engage the Tanks more? please give us a solution, bec I cannot see how more "engaged" a tank can be while face-to-face with mobs and bosses..

The diff between Tank and SMN or BLM for me, its the skills and animations! I main tank, but my real mains in games are mages..

So when I can play them, it makes me happy, and relieved that we can switch with other FC friends, to give them 'need' and to help them having tanking experience. call it a break from tanking.

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Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss

Everyone is always fighting the SAME enemies, everything they do endlessly into the SAME dungeons.. so even DPS and healers are in the same boat.. *shrugs*

How can you engage the Tanks more? please give us a solution, bec I cannot see how more "engaged" a tank can be while face-to-face with mobs and bosses..

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I did give 3 solutions, you decided to not read my later posts.

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Originally Posted by Rextab

definitely no respect for tanks...especially new tanks.
i guess i am different. if im new to content, i admit it. i ask for strats for what people have seen to work with particular encounters, then I do it.
nothing wrong with admitting you are new. everyone was new once. they didn't just jump immediately to their "everyone should worship me im l33t skillz" attitude.
can't stand that.

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Agreed. I have patience with 'new' my patience wears thin when they don't say they are 'new' and/or say they are 'new' and then don't listen to strats or don't even wait for someone to explain.

I don't mind wipes when someone is building comfort but to wipe because of ignorance or lack of listening is completely different.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

Thoughts 1,2,3

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I am waiting for a level cap increase to hopefully see this change. A level cap is warranted and should happen. Paladin does need more combo's with something happening after Riot blade. More proc attacks, free circle of scorn after Rage of Halone crit.

I agree something needs to be done. I play warrior just for the fun factor.

It finally dawned on me how rare tanks are the other night.. I don't consider myself a hardcore player, tho I think I'm more serious than the average casual player.. I'm the only one in our FC with i90 Warrior AND Paladin. We have an almost i100 Paladin, and one other i90ish Paladin.. About 60 active members. Some people have leveled up tanks but there are only 3 of us that can actually tank coil and extremes. Pretty damn sad :(

I despise when DPS classes demand anything from a tank, such as a speed run. I'm a very friendly, optimistic person, but if a DPS class insists on pushing my buttons, I'm quick to remind them that they are the most easily Replaceable piece of the dungeon.

Not gonna let someone who's never been a tank push me around or critique me.

I think part of the problem is that often people who play tanks and healers (not counting the ones that only do it for fast queues and/or ego boosting) play the job because they like to help/protect others. When these 'others' are aggressively mean, then sometimes the more helpful but less aggressive tank becomes more withdrawn and then suddenly will never tank PUGs/DF/PF groups anymore and only tank for friends/FC. I'm a case in point - I got tired of all the hate/rage in DF even doing roulette, and even though I want to help out by lessening the wait for dps, I now almost exclusively only use my bard for anything public and only tank for friends... Just a thought from one of those tanks that are quiet when people rail against me but then eventually just leave and don't public tank anymore :/

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I think part of the problem is that often people who play tanks and healers (not counting the ones that only do it for fast queues and/or ego boosting) play the job because they like to help/protect others. When these 'others' are aggressively mean, then sometimes the more helpful but less aggressive tank becomes more withdrawn and then suddenly will never tank PUGs/DF/PF groups anymore and only tank for friends/FC. I'm a case in point - I got tired of all the hate/rage in DF even doing roulette, and even though I want to help out by lessening the wait for dps, I now almost exclusively only use my bard for anything public and only tank for friends... Just a thought from one of those tanks that are quiet when people rail against me but then eventually just leave and don't public tank anymore :/

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Its sad really, people complain not enough tanks and they have to wait along time in DF, then when the tank is not up to their standards they ridicule the tank and are verbally aggressive too. Its a no win situation, I just ignore those people quit group and take the penalty, no big deal.

If its on the same server blacklist them. If the players are respectful to you and each other and understanding which is rare from what I see and hear, then great, you had a nice group and your game time just got a little better :)

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Originally Posted by Faeon

Its sad really, people complain not enough tanks and they have to wait along time in DF, then when the tank is not up to their standards they ridicule the tank and are verbally aggressive too. Its a no win situation, I just ignore those people quit group and take the penalty, no big deal

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tbh i never buy the argument that people dont like to tank because people give them crap

people always give us crap about something, but if it's important to us or is something that we enjoy, we continue to forge ahead.

But it is easy to tell when a tank is doing their job badly because they have a very clear and defined level of required performance.

This same onus is not extended to healers and dps unless the Tank increases the strain on the group - where there might not be a dps check or clear requirement of healing ability beforehand, the dps check will become "kill all of these enemies before the tank exhausts all of their cooldowns and dies" and the healer will be required to work with the tank in conjunction with the activation of their cooldowns to keep them alive.

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Originally Posted by Fluttersnipe

I despise when DPS classes demand anything from a tank, such as a speed run. I'm a very friendly, optimistic person, but if a DPS class insists on pushing my buttons, I'm quick to remind them that they are the most easily Replaceable piece of the dungeon.

Not gonna let someone who's never been a tank push me around or critique me.

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Exactly, they treat you like you work for them and not with them. I'm a new tank only a few months old but I've healed since 1.0 and my friends is PLD, so I hear all about it and am now getting the reason why..there might be a few less tanks out there.

As a Tank, I don't let them rush me, as a healer if I see someone treat the tank like that usually them dying and knowing that both the healer and tank don't find their attitude fun places them back from being a short living tanking dps to one who understands, it might not be your pace, sorry.