Yoshi-P: Atma drop % = "it's just luck"

Confirmed:
There is no secret to increasing the atrocious, soul-sucking atma drop rates. It really is just RNG luck that wins the day.

Sad news for those who believe that farming FATEs in certain areas at certain times leads to higher drop rates.

Also, sad news for anyone like me who isn't "lucky" enough to be in a static or an endgame FC and has to depend on DF/PF to challenge LeviX and 2nd Coil for the other endgame weapons.

Personally, I got all 12 atmas for Artemis bow in about 24 hours of farming over a week. So though I guess I was one of the "lucky" ones, I won't be doing that again ever. Since there's no guarantee I'll be that lucky again. Also, standing around twiddling my thumbs for 2-3 hours for a non-soloable FATE, then losing because I was the only one there when it spawned, and having to risk that x9...
Yeeah, I guess if they apparently only intend one Animus per player they surely succeeded with me ._.; oh well

inb4 filthy casual doesn't need 1337 weponz lolz
Like absolutely everything else in a video game, it's not about need it's about greed ;)

Credit to:
Reinhart's unofficial translation of yesterday's Tokyo FATE event, Day 2
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...sle=true&pli=1

Relevant excerpt below [bold type mine]:
f; foxclon [moderator] y; yoship p; player

f; next challenger, Ixion Azunyan san
p; happy birthday
y; thank you
p; regarding atma
p; this time we have a new zodiac quest where we need get 12 atma’s to progress into the quest
p; the FATEs, I’ve spent the whole day running FATEs and haven’t gotten one
p; and I was wondering if the devs are thinking something for this
p; there has to be some secret even
y; first are you equipped with zenith
y; and you’re in the correct area?
y; ok had to ask first, it’s just luck, there are those who might get in 23hours and others who haven’t gotten, it’s really based on real luck
y; there’s some occult rumors to run FATEs with time have you tried that
p; yes, but haven’t gotten it
y; well lets talk over about your real luck later
f; were you nervous
p; yes, well it’s players against the producer, so for sure
f; challenger lost
y; I think everyone has better drop rate than us
f; thank you

ATMA weapons arent required to get instantly to make a person better, and their potential as being a great weapon isnt there yet either, don't rush your self with farming it if the luck factor isnt on your side.

that said, if you say you cant get into an FC who runs things, are you even looking for an FC? Theres plenty that clear content and accept casuals and non casuals alike. Mine for example doesn't discriminate between peoples play time or experiences. This community can get rotten but you shouldnt distrust it completely, spend time to look for a good group and you will find one.

Personally, I wouldn't take the opinion on the forums as the majority. I feel that's something a lot of people tend to do. What you generally tend to see is the vocal minority, as opposed to the lot of people who just do the content, don't mind it, and don't post anything about it on the forums. A few people in my FC were annoyed at first, but in the end everyone just finished up the Atma grind or their book grinds and went along with their business. I had my own mild annoyance at farming Atma, but I got it before long, and finishing the books just took effort since there is absolutely no RNG involved in that outside of FATE pops. Finished my Animus a few weeks back and I've just been eagerly waiting for the next section of the questline.

The thing is, if they nerf it, people will cry for another long-drawn out quest chain to get an awesome weapon, and when they get it, the vocal minority will cry again that it's too hard to get because of RNG/mechanics/etc. It's a very, very visible pattern in MMOs these days. Neither side can ever really win without the opposite complaining. I'm not saying the people who want it nerfed are wrong, but I personally feel as though it's fine the way it is.

But rng is unfair and we all know it is. It isn't a boss mechanic we can observe and learn from it. The fate of our atmas solely rely on the game itself and not us.
The game can just screw someone over and decide to just "never" allow them to get any drops because it just chooses to do so, it's very possible because it's rng.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

But rng is unfair and we all know it is. It isn't a boss mechanic we can observe and learn from it. The fate of our atmas solely rely on the game itself and not us.
The game can just screw someone over and decide to just "never" allow them to get any drops because it just chooses to do so, it's very possible because it's rng.

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Fairness has nothing to do with randomness... Everyone involved in the fate has the same chance to get the atma, how can it be more fair?

It really is luck.

On my first attempt to get an ATMA in Western Thanalan, I got my ATMA..

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

But rng is unfair and we all know it is. It isn't a boss mechanic we can observe and learn from it. The fate of our atmas solely rely on the game itself and not us.
The game can just screw someone over and decide to just "never" allow them to get any drops because it just chooses to do so, it's very possible because it's rng.

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How is it unfair, every one has the same drop rate. If you're lucky then good for you. If not keep trying.

If I were to say get one every 2 fates consistantly and others still needed 100 each, then you have an issue of fairness, but that simply wont happen

Unfair or not, you remember 1.x?
If it was such a great idea with all that RNG in this game, you know... we havnt had many players!

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

Unfair or not, you remember 1.x?
If it was such a great idea with all that RNG in this game, you know... we havnt had many players!

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You know that players came back after the RNG (Ifrit fight drop and every endgame content drop after it) was put into the game?

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Originally Posted by muwa

Fairness has nothing to do with randomness... Everyone involved in the fate has the same chance to get the atma, how can it be more fair?

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Easy, by everyone having the same chance to get the atma and require the same amount of work. :P Double fair!

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Originally Posted by Felis

You know that players came back after the RNG (Ifrit fight drop and every endgame content drop after it) was put into the game?

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Yea, because RNG got nerfed, you rember skirmish?
They changed a lot on droprates, not always good...

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Originally Posted by Meltzeiferion

Easy, by everyone having the same chance to get the atma and require the same amount of work. :P Double fair!

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Ok, you don't have to participate as much as the others since you can get the atma with only bronze result so it's not really fair, but that's not what most people are whining about.

Umm, Really muwa? That's really what you think my comment was about? @_@

Think on it a little more maybe. :P I don't really want to get drawn into a big discussion or anything so I'm out. LOL

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

But rng is unfair.

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RNG is the most fair thing there is. It doesn't even require skill or effort. It just happens or it doesn't, and it's the same for everyone.

Atma is luck.

There are other factors involved in the atma grind though. Lower La Noscea for instance is particularly bad how big the map is, and there is actual down time of FATEs; and one FATE spawns at the bottom, two more spawn at the top, people also grind in one spot instead of running with the group of FATErs too. Down time is the worst with the atma grind, the luck is not bad.

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Originally Posted by kiotsukete

Confirmed:
There is no secret to increasing the atrocious, soul-sucking atma drop rates. It really is just RNG luck that wins the day.

Sad news for those who believe that farming FATEs in certain areas at certain times leads to higher drop rates.

Also, sad news for anyone like me who isn't "lucky" enough to be in a static or an endgame FC and has to depend on DF/PF to challenge LeviX and 2nd Coil for the other endgame weapons.

Personally, I got all 12 atmas for Artemis bow in about 24 hours of farming over a week. So though I guess I was one of the "lucky" ones, I won't be doing that again ever. Since there's no guarantee I'll be that lucky again. Also, standing around twiddling my thumbs for 2-3 hours for a non-soloable FATE, then losing because I was the only one there when it spawned, and having to risk that x9...
Yeeah, I guess if they apparently only intend one Animus per player they surely succeeded with me ._.; oh well

inb4 filthy casual doesn't need 1337 weponz lolz
Like absolutely everything else in a video game, it's not about need it's about greed ;)

Credit to:
Reinhart's unofficial translation of yesterday's Tokyo FATE event, Day 2
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...sle=true&pli=1

Relevant excerpt below [bold type mine]:
f; foxclon [moderator] y; yoship p; player

f; next challenger, Ixion Azunyan san
p; happy birthday
y; thank you
p; regarding atma
p; this time we have a new zodiac quest where we need get 12 atma’s to progress into the quest
p; the FATEs, I’ve spent the whole day running FATEs and haven’t gotten one
p; and I was wondering if the devs are thinking something for this
p; there has to be some secret even
y; first are you equipped with zenith
y; and you’re in the correct area?
y; ok had to ask first, it’s just luck, there are those who might get in 23hours and others who haven’t gotten, it’s really based on real luck
y; there’s some occult rumors to run FATEs with time have you tried that
p; yes, but haven’t gotten it
y; well lets talk over about your real luck later
f; were you nervous
p; yes, well it’s players against the producer, so for sure
f; challenger lost
y; I think everyone has better drop rate than us
f; thank you

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You should have posted this from that same document lol

t; I finished atma but didn’t finish animus
t; got 13 atma... got one double
y; i don’t even have one yet
y; been doing about 300 fates and still didn’t get
y; was talking with other players but I think all the hatred from players are attacking me

RNG is fair yes.

What isn't fair is the effort discrepancy in getting the atmas...which ultimately just results in getting a different colored zenith before the real grind (books) begins.

RNG is completely fair, and also completely terrible. Making players rely solely on RNG without any sort of backup plan is decade old game design. At least make it so that if I do 100 fates in a zone and still don't have the RNG gods bless me with an Atma I can at least buy the damn thing from the zone.

I'm honestly surprised there's nothing like this in-game already. Yes, I don't need the Atma or the Animus weapon, but it is absolutely soul-crushing to go hours and hours and hours and do hundreds of FATEs without a single Atma drop. This is hilarious design for MMO content that was released in 2014.

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Originally Posted by Rhas

You should have posted this from that same document lol

t; I finished atma but didn’t finish animus
t; got 13 atma... got one double
y; i don’t even have one yet
y; been doing about 300 fates and still didn’t get
y; was talking with other players but I think all the hatred from players are attacking me

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(o.o)

that is surprising....

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Originally Posted by Rhas

You should have posted this from that same document lol

t; I finished atma but didn’t finish animus
t; got 13 atma... got one double
y; i don’t even have one yet
y; been doing about 300 fates and still didn’t get
y; was talking with other players but I think all the hatred from players are attacking me

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This alone is kinda proof that he plans to increase the drop rates on them. idn just feels that way.

Yoshi-P said it's luck, he means in general it's luck based. Even if he upped it to 50% of the time you get a drop, it's still luck, you can still probably go through 100 FATEs at the rate and still not get one.

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Originally Posted by Parodine

RNG is fair yes.

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wait, are you serious on this one?
RNG is not different than gambling! and seriously even kids know that is never been fair in any way.

Fair way is: everyone must do 10 fate in the area for get the Atma. there, is fair, everyone will do the same thing.
RNG way is: Player alpha enter an area between two dungeon, see a FATE do it get the atma, player Beta have already spend countless hours at this and haven't seen it one.

LUCK IS NOT FAIR!

ps: fair Synonyms: just, equitable, impartial, unprejudiced, unbiased, objective, dispassionate

indeed we can say RNG is fair because it's impartial... but since is not equitable... is not fair sorry

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

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I've seen this idea thrown around countless times and tbh it's a pretty terrible one. The beauty of rng is that it's impartial and unbiased. It does not care if this is your 1st or 1000th roll, it does not care if you lost 10 rolls in a row. It just spits out a random number in your face based on a preset configuration of dice rolls. It's emotionless and just like a chess computer, it just sets about what it was programed to do without any fuss and hassle. This is ultimately why rng is fair.

I've played mmos for 10 years and this is the first game that I've seen so many people whining about rng. Not to say there weren't players complaining about low drop in other games but you know what they did? Ask for a higher drop rate. None of these progressive drop rate increase bs. This totally violates the principles of rng which I explained above.

Instead putting ATMAs into FATEs, Yoshida could bring back Hamlet defence an put the ATMAs in them. 1 Hamlet defence in each main region, 4 ATMAs in each Hamlet defence. Bringing the NPC stuff before the fight and earning enough points during the defence can increase the droprate. 100% droprate for the top3 in the provision rank list if the party get 60k points or more after the defence.

Do you make your own luck or does luck make you? We find luck, good and bad. Only way you're gonna win is if you keep playing.

So in the end the Atma grind is just a straight up grind. If you hate grinding then the "drop rate" doesn't matter. You aren't dealing with a .02% drop rate because if you were then you wouldn't be getting a drop within a week.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

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If it doesn\\'t then that\\'s just terrible right? There\\'s just no excuse for putting a lot of hours into it and still not recieving the results of someone else who only put 1/2 or 1/4 of that effort.
Sure we all have a chance to get it but why must some grind their eyes out lol? I mean like if you don't have the nightmare mount from all that pre 2.2 ex farming then thats just lol wtf XD. I found it super extreme wtf lucky as i got it on my first garuda kill ( out of a few attempts ). When i won that roll damnn were some ppl pissed. I\\'m sure tht a lot of ppl have cleared all ex primals 100s of times ( for their ex weps, clears, farming gear, just for fun) and still have not seen 1 ever.
But my whole point is you can\\'t really justify rng when it can just decide to never give you a drop when u participate each time. Is it your fault? Nope, can you blame rng? Somewhat but still you can gamble your sanity away till you get it.

I think the reason y complain this much because we were to told to believe this game was for casuals.
When you know something is harder than coil for some people (hardest endgame content atm? ) and it only involves fate grinding then dammmmmn is that not casual lol.
If it's kill X amount of enemies (i.e butchers crown ) then imo thats casual grinding as it's still grinding a really huge amount but it's still obtainable as you know once u reach that number you get your reward. But when you have to gamble away your days then that's crazy lol. Also the fact that it's blocking the progression of your relic/atma/animus or whatever it's called now weapon.
When you aren't given the control of something that's affecting something you had control of then that's obviously wrong.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

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See, you can't approach luck like that or you'll drive yourself crazy. The thing about RNG is that you don't have to care about it, it's out of your control anyway. The only thing you should worry about is how to be efficient about farming things and how to have fun with it. Drops will happen when they do, sooner or later.

Whether the effort is worth it or not is a question you'll have to answer yourself. If never getting the drop is "terrible" then why risk it and do it at all? I'd rather do something that's "fun" to me. Whenever you engage in something that's up to luck, you should embrace the chance that you might not get anything out of it. If you're not fine with that chance, then you shouldn't do it at all, because futile effort will only make your life miserable.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

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How is adding a cut off to grinding a single zone a 'terrible' idea? If we went with the proposed 100 FATES in a single zone, for a single ATMA...that's still 100 fates that need to be completed. If someone was extremely unlucky...they'd still have to do at most 1200 fates for a single Atma weapon. I'm pretty sure that's still more than the average number of fates required to complete the Atma today. And I don't know about you...but that still seems like plenty of a grind to me.

Yes, you're right, RNG is unbiased. It's unbiased in who gets handed their upgrade and who gets completely screwed over. A design choice that has some lucky few completing their weapon in under twelve ours of effort while others have invested days worth of dedicated time and haven't gotten a full set yet is not a good system. It is more than possible to design long grinds without relying on dated RNG tactics. It just requires the development team to make an effort...

I expect to see the relic quest get modified down the road due to the fact that they intend to have a continual stream of upgrades for this weapon. Since players will want to have a relic on all of their classes, having such an incredible time sink will become counter productive as they add new upgrades. It would not surprise me to see them boost the drop rate substantially within 2 to 3 patches. As it stands now, most of the people in my FC are being forced to choose one weapon to upgrade due to the time sink. Our coil teams have made the short term decision to skip the Atma farming even though their upgraded relics may ultimately be better down the road in the long term.

My view of the current situation:
1. Many players devour content faster than they create it, this quest serves as a means to slow them down and keep them in the game.
2. PS4 launch happened roughly the same time and having thousands of players running around the world grinding fates making it look more alive.

They should give you a fragment of atma for any fate you're doing and still have the same chance as now to get a full atma. ( fragment of a specific atma, or a universal fragment, idk)

You can combine 100 fragment to get an atma.

Lucky people will still get atma pretty quick, the most unlucky person in the world will have to do 1200 fates.

Win/Win for all!

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

2. PS4 launch happened roughly the same time and having thousands of players running around the world grinding fates making it look more alive.

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This may be true, but I think a more important consideration was that it reduced the server stress on any individual zone.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

Yes, you're right, RNG is unbiased. It's unbiased in who gets handed their upgrade and who gets completely screwed over. A design choice that has some lucky few completing their weapon in under twelve ours of effort while others have invested days worth of dedicated time and haven't gotten a full set yet is not a good system. It is more than possible to design long grinds without relying on dated RNG tactics. It just requires the development team to make an effort...

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Well, what do you propose then? Saying is often easier than doing.

Most popular suggestion, grid X amount of fate and get something, like the butcher's crown reward? 100 FATE for 1 Atma for a total of 12 Atma?

Then this would become a definite time sink. I wonder the real casuals who play 1-3 hours a day would take how long to get them, really. RNG have a benefit for these casuals that they may luck out and get them faster than killing 1,200 FATEs, to be honest.

And I am sure majority of the Atma weapon owners don't have to grind 1,200 FATEs. The people complaining here are just those on the end of the bell curve for being extreme unlucky, it doesn't reflect the majority of the Atma/Animus weapon owners. Simply because those who complete it in 500 FATE or less, or less than 48/60 hrs total grind, doesn't come here to tell you how satisfied they are. We won't know how many casuals that were actually able to obtain an Atma weapon within 48/60hrs which otherwise, they might have to grind for way more hours if it's 100 FATE = 1 Atma system.

They say forums are full of complaints, I think that holds quite some truth. Everyday on General Discussion I see new threads about complaints on Atma, and it's the same old thing.

I wish my friends on my server who owns the Animus weapon would come here to post and tell the people here 100+hrs without 1 Atma = your extreme bad luck, you're just the bad luck 1% etc. Heck, my 2nd Atma Weapon, I got 9 Atmas in 4hrs, I have a friend who was farming together with me on the same day got 1 Atma like every other 10-20mins for a total of 4-5 Atma too. There are also a lot of people like us so that pretty evens out, but we don't create daily threads to tell you our Atma acquisition rate. Heck, there's someone in Tonberry with 8 Atma weapons already and 2 converted into Animus.

And to be frank - the real reason most people do not have an Animus yet isn't really because of RNG on Atma, it's either they read too much toxic about this whole quest on reddit and forums and what not and decided not to do it or even boycott it, or they already have the Atma weapon, but still working on the 9 books, which is the REAL time sink.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

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Like I said adding an artificial cut off defeats the whole purpose of rng. The rng does not have an AI with empathy that goes "hey you've been farming for 8 hours, here have a cookie and an Atma for good measure". Yes it is cruel for those unlucky ones but because it does not indiscriminate it is ultimately fair. Fair is when everyone gets equal opportunity, not necessarily equal outcome.

Suggest increasing drop rate if you want. Suggest a fixed X number of fates from the start if you want. I might not agree but at least I can respect that. But a a half and half system is a terrible idea that goes nowhere and is an insult for rng purists. Is that so hard to understand?

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Originally Posted by skaterger

Like I said adding an artificial cut off defeats the whole purpose of rng. The rng does not have an AI with empathy that goes "hey you've been farming for 8 hours, here have a cookie and an Atma for good measure". Yes it is cruel for those unlucky ones but because it does not indiscriminate it is ultimately fair. Fair is when everyone gets equal opportunity, not necessarily equal outcome.

Suggest increasing drop rate if you want. Suggest a fixed X number of kills for a certain mob from the start if you want. I might not agree but at least I can respect that. But a a half and half system goes nowhere and is an insult for rng purists. Is that so hard to understand?

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An insult to RNG purists...? Are you kidding me? I seriously doubt that were will be a mass exodus if the developers added a cutoff that only affected the most extreme cases of people being screwed over.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

An insult to RNG purists...? Are you kidding me? I seriously doubt that were will be a mass exodus if the developers added a cutoff that only affected the most extreme cases of people being screwed over.

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No more than those who threaten to leave cause of the Atma grind, that's for sure.

If anything, I expect them to throw us a bone here people. In other words, I suspect they'll make it so we have to do maybe 15-20 fates guaranteed for a single piece per zone. I don't know about you all, but I'd be willing to put time in on all my classes if that were the case.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

If anything, I expect them to throw us a bone here people. In other words, I suspect they'll make it so we have to do maybe 15-20 fates guaranteed for a single piece per zone. I don't know about you all, but I'd be willing to put time in on all my classes if that were the case.

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15-20 seems heinously simple... practically a hand-out.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

No more than those who threaten to leave cause of the Atma grind, that's for sure.

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I tend to consider being frustrated over having to continue a mindless chore for days longer than others simply over luck more of a valid complaint over people who may get upset over a stop-gap to help the unluckiest outliers.

Seriously...your argument reeks of the idea that RNG purists will complain when there isn't a certain percentage of the population being screwed over by dated game design. Grinds can still exist without being arbitrarily punishing. Setting up systems to cover the unluckiest 5-10% of cases will not suddenly make the Atma section any less of an RNG grind for the other 90-95%

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

15-20 seems heinously simple... practically a hand-out.

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Yeah, that is a bit low.

I'm on the side of it does need some sort of evening out so that the people getting screwed aren't shafted as hard as they have been, but nowhere near that low, 100 is a fine number, at most 150, but really, more than that, especially with the sheer mind numbing boredom from the low level FATEs is just a little on the harsh side for something that requires 12 different drops. Now, if it was something more interesting than FATEs in general, and low level FATEs in specific, I'd be alright with going higher, but still, it shouldn't be as punishing for people as it is now who are just unlucky.

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Originally Posted by Jerichai

being screwed over by dated game design.

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Seeing that zenith players can easily (by design) clear t7, "screwed over" is a gross overstatement, but I digress.