please revise ilvl req on df

Hi there this is obviously open for constructive criticism but I think this needs some revising.

There should be some form of clear progression and even more so when using df.
I did not think there was much of a problem with the levels required until yesterday was just farming gear from turn 1 and a paladin with AF1 gear made up some of the lvl req by buying mythology jewellery. He did not know what silence was and when we explained to use spirits within he said he did not have that skill.

Now one person should not spoil other people's fun and I am not saying raise ilvl req to the point of only top geared players should be able to join turn 1 for example.

What I am saying is there should be some form of clear progression - for example.

*continued on next post*

fresh level 50 - start doing some dungeons until they start getting some tomes and get some mythology gear from doing story mode dungeons.
Step it up to do some HM dungeons once they have at least geared a bit better (not much but don't literally want a completely fresh lv50 in HM dungeons)

At this point - Mix it up maybe do some Crystal Tower if they wanted a little change and to get some ilvl80 gear however they can do this or HM dungeons but can't just step into CT either until at least picked up a little mythology gear) (CT needs more of a soldiery reward to be honest as its longer to run than a HM dungeon but another story for another day)

Once you have a mix of 70/80/90 gear might then want to do HM primals and start working towards relic and then +1 but again need at least an ilvl that is fair even if it is easier now than it ever was with echo and such people should still progress properly.

Once you do all this you should have a minimum ilvl of really high 70/just about 80 and I think that is where coil should start even if its a bit overkill but the ilvl requirement isn't hard just work and this is the proper progression route.

What this would then do is that the people who queue in the df are not skipping content, people would know there jobs better and the quality of players would improve and it all still caters to the casual player as all of this can be done in there own time or with friends.

Please leave any comments if you agree/disagree. Please if you disagree leave a reason its not a bash post or an elitist post, I am only ilvl86 and starting to progress through the first turns of coil.

the point from DF is using it for learning

while PF is used for clear/farm

Wanna know something funny, go look at the ilevel reqs for coil, guess what? First turn is i70 req. And upping ilvl req will do nothing to solve people not bothering to learn how to play.

iLvl reqs are fine as is, you can beat anything at the set level, with reasonably skilled players.

Oh and please add class restriction on ring etc. Yesterday i was with a pld full spirit with ring for healer lvl 36.

He got 3200 hp for the palace and that was horrible i was tanking everything with my monk because he was dying with two hit...

So did he was a tank ? I don't think so.

Please do something against that.

Its duty finder, there are supposed to be derps. If there weren't derps, people wouldn't worry so much about doing duty finder, and party finder would go ignored. :D

On a serious note, the ilv for the coil turns are actually the most accurate ilv out of all dungeons/raids/trials in the duty finder. Except turn3. You can complete turn3 naked.

Its not about gear. I've gone into lots of turn 1 runs with people that still wear AF1 gear. Obviously it was chosen that way because it can be cleared that way.

Some people just suck more then others. They just still need to learn.

Interesting fact: Did you know party finder was made for problems like yours. You should totally use it.

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Originally Posted by Crimson-Falcon

the point from DF is using it for learning

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Nuuuuuuupe.

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Originally Posted by Takeva

Its not about gear. I've gone into lots of turn 1 runs with people that still wear AF1 gear. Obviously it was chosen that way because it can be cleared that way.

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It is about gear. Those people shouldn't be wearing i50 gear in something that requires i70. And it was made that way because all pieces are weighted the same as far as item level is concerned, when in reality your left side pieces give significantly higher stats than the right side does yet are valued the same. You could meet the ilvl req just by covering yourself in high ilvl accessories and be totally useless stat wise, or upgrade your main items and be more useful despite not meeting ilvl requirements.

Blahblahblah

People should know by now that the problem isn't "new players" in iL close to the minimum in dungeons. The dungeons (and HM/EX primals) are designed for these iL. If you go with an iL that's 20 points above, YOU are the one in fault.

As an example, ifrit HM is perfectly doable with a team in AF gear with GC weapon. If your tank is in this case, and if you rip off hate because you're iL93 and can't slow down to scale their hate generation, YOU are responsible for the eventual failing of the duty.

For your "problem" with T1 (tank with AF and myth jewels), it was far worse back in time when you could beat titan with no iL req and people were going in T1 with a mix of AF gear and AK gear. At least now they are forced to get the minimum iL required to even consider winning in T1, ie 70.


Oh and side note, for whoever said DF is used to learn : the fact that Levi/moggle EX can't be attended in PF proves that the PF was mostly intended for people to learn. Because you know, back in 2.0, a lot of people were bitching about beginners with no clue in DF for titan HM (mostly) who were ruining the "pro players" experience.
JP players used it that way, and afaik, their DF have a way higher success rate in the difficult encounter than ours.

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Originally Posted by Yurihyuga

Once you have a mix of 70/80/90 gear might then want to do HM primals and start working towards relic and then +1 but again need at least an ilvl that is fair even if it is easier now than it ever was with echo and such people should still progress properly.

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Hard mode primals were always tuned for people in a mix of AF, level 60 gear and some Darklight. Now they have been made easier than before, and you want an average ilevel of 80?

It seems that now people are over-gearing everything, they forget what the real requirements are, relying on gear rather than skill.

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Originally Posted by MurakumoMillennium

It is about gear.

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I have to continue to disagree. Content can be cleared, as long as the person knows what they are doing. But that wasn't really the point of my post.
You want a certain ilvl? Use party finder. It's silly to expect to always get a decent group in Duty Finder.

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Originally Posted by Harmonium

Oh and please add class restriction on ring etc. Yesterday i was with a pld full spirit with ring for healer lvl 36.

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I had some asshat twice in CT today wearing full crafting gear with an Allagan chest piece. Had 4500 hp.
First time he intentionally wiped us multiple times.
Second time, I warned the party about him and told them what he does. What happens? I get kicked.

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Originally Posted by Crimson-Falcon

the point from DF is using it for learning

while PF is used for clear/farm

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THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE THINGS!!
i cannot agree with this person at all

Learning should occur any time you have the chance, not just DF. If a level 50 PLD doesn't know that he should have spirits within or the gear, maybe he wasnt informed how to find that information, or to get to the quests for it, people in duty finder shoulda informed him, or he should be asking questions to his fc/ls/random strangers.

PF was made for whatever you want to form, training parties, fun runs, farming, or just random stuff (imagination is your limitation)

now likewise, if you try to give him information and he refuses to listen, kick him to the curb and get a new person, but if you're not telling him and he doesn't know, you are just as much part of the problem (informing him of what he can do to get those skills/gear)

If you want to set a minimum Ilvl for a dungeon, do it via party finder, the dungeons people are entering is more than fine Ilvl wise, as it's intended for that level.

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Originally Posted by Muzy

Wanna know something funny, go look at the ilevel reqs for coil, guess what? First turn is i70 req. And upping ilvl req will do nothing to solve people not bothering to learn how to play.

iLvl reqs are fine as is, you can beat anything at the set level, with reasonably skilled players.

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I really have a hard time believing your can kill the adds from the final boss in manor HM in time if your dps was barely at the ilvl requirment point tbh.

Opposite opinion:

Abolish iLvl.

It's destructive to the community and fosters a hostile play environment.

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Originally Posted by Issac

Opposite opinion:

Abolish iLvl.

It's destructive to the community and fosters a hostile play environment.

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So very much this, Ilvl has created a new breed of toxic community that believe Ilvl equals skill

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Originally Posted by Issac

Opposite opinion:

Abolish iLvl.

It's destructive to the community and fosters a hostile play environment.

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Wont change a dam thing. Then you have people in pf saying stuff like "At least darklight or equivalent, at least CT or equivalent, ect.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Wont change a dam thing. Then you have people in pf saying stuff like "At least darklight or equivalent, at least CT or equivalent, ect.

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Latest Pf trend seems to have "must have animus Ilvl 90plus" for Brayflox,hala or lost city....

Some people want to wear crafted and slotted gear. iLvl stops this from happening. It forces this attitude, supported by ingame systems, that it's farm myth/sold and wear the same thing as everyone else or you can't come.

It really is complete horse sh*t.

ilvl wont do anything but prolong the newbies going in. seen ilvl 85+ go into garuda ex... tank blames healers for himself and 3 dps dying by not avoiding wicked wheel/vortex, getting his spiny stacks up, just eating everything to the face.

Told him Benediction couldnt save them from that. He begs to differ that its the healers fault they cant move.

ilvl doesn't=skill

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Originally Posted by Issac

Opposite opinion:

Abolish iLvl.

It's destructive to the community and fosters a hostile play environment.

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Why should people not be allowed to choose who they play with?

You're not forced to discriminate based on ilevel yourself, and you're not forced to join that person's party.

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Originally Posted by Legacy_Wolfwood

ilvl wont do anything but prolong the newbies going in. seen ilvl 85+ go into garuda ex... tank blames healers for himself and 3 dps dying by not avoiding wicked wheel/vortex, getting his spiny stacks up, just eating everything to the face.

Told him Benediction couldnt save them from that. He begs to differ that its the healers fault they cant move.

ilvl doesn't=skill

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If you're a healer and don't know that you can't avoid wicked wheel (even sprinting well ahead of time they follow you) and then are blaming the tank for getting hit, then there's something you need to reevaluate. Now if you are taking about slipstream (which doesn't one shot anyone, so you should be able to heal through it anyway), get the attack names right because they do two different things. Slipstream is the only thing the tank can actively dodge (as opposed to passively at random) so if you're complaining about them taking other attacks...

iL has nothing to do with people going overboard on levi or falling to their deaths on titan.

i got a smn in AK last night wearing lvl 39 mnd jewelry and using the book from stone vigil. she was nice enough tho, welcomed our advice about gearing casters and overall i think she may have learned something. all is fine and well, cuz it was just AK

however, if i encountered this kind of nubbyness in Coil i would be more than a little peeved. good thing i would never use DF for coil, why on gods green earth would anyone subject themselves to that? not only is it a crap shoot on the skill lvl of players you might get but its also alot more efficient to be able to choose the classes you take with you.

All iLevel is is a 'You must be this X to ride' sign. Sadly, people want things broken down into simple terms and iLevel provides that. The fact dungeons require specific iLevels only promotes that view.

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

Why should people not be allowed to choose who they play with?

You're not forced to discriminate based on ilevel yourself, and you're not forced to join that person's party.

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They didn't say people shouldn't choose, that's what Party Finder is there for. But iLevel is a terrible means of gating content and really should be done away with. Yes, Duty Finder will again produce undergeared people but believe it or not, they never were a 'flood' level problem. I know I never tried the harder content unless I could meaningfully contribute, my friends had to actually push me to try Titan (Hard) once I was in mostly Toxotes and had a primal weapon. Got my win, by the way, thanks to that.

I promise you it's not about gear or iLvl. Skill > Gear/iLvL for example yesterday i ran T1 in DF on Pld now my Pld is only ilvl 80 atm. I'm not sure what iLvl the other Pld was but he was horrific. The only thing that was true was that he had iLvl 100 chest and about 600 more Hp then me and that he was terribad. Given that he said it was his first time on tank there and that he didn't know what spirits within was I tried to walk him through it very nicely. Either he wasn't rotating Cd's right or just didn't know the job I'm not sure but he had immense problems getting hate at split while i MT the Main Cad over to B spot. And on top of that he'd die half way through his snake after split, finally giving up after 4-5 wipes mad like it was the worlds fault. The whole party was more then willing to help him learn it even though it was DF group and we didn't mind the wipes. Lesson of the day iLvl is fine people just need more patience

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Originally Posted by Muzy

Wanna know something funny, go look at the ilevel reqs for coil, guess what? First turn is i70 req. And upping ilvl req will do nothing to solve people not bothering to learn how to play.

iLvl reqs are fine as is, you can beat anything at the set level, with reasonably skilled players.

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Eh. The extreme primals (excluding Leviathan) required ilvls are too low.

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Originally Posted by Crimson-Falcon

the point from DF is using it for learning

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No. No it's not.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Eh. The extreme primals (excluding Leviathan) required ilvls are too low.

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yh, still waiting for the world 1st titan extreme clear with everyone avg i67. ( of course, no echo buff allowed )

Honestly don't mind playing with ppl with entry level gear, but it can be a lot of pressure to clear certain dps checks, but that's ok too I guess.....

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

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you can't avoid Suparnas wicked wheel? I think you need to re evaluate as it is indeed avoidable. that is the correct name of the attack. vortex is the same thing. newbie dps sitting in the open or behind wrong sides of pillars get destroyed most of the time.

maybe i've been in more strategies than you where the Ot pulls sup instead of chi or the team splits into the triangle formation. if thats the case, then sorry you didn't understand what i meant and that i didnt fully clarify.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Wont change a dam thing. Then you have people in pf saying stuff like "At least darklight or equivalent, at least CT or equivalent, ect.

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Remember way back when, when everyone was doing CM for Philo and AK had terribad queues?

Yeah..."Full Darklight and Relic" were the shout advertisements for everything...eventually became "Must have Relic+1 and some Myth gear"

Good times...

I saw a Blackmage who had no Flare on T4.
He was very confused and thought he needed Relic Weapon to get Flare.


I've also seen a WHM with no Regen on T1. (Regen comes from lv 35 WHM quest !!)
Other healer asked him to have a Regen up on both tanks after split.
He said " I dont have that spell "
When asked "how could you miss that, it's one of the first WHM job quests " he replied that he " hates class quests because they are solo ".
>_>


Fortunately he was vote-kicked after wiping on Caduceus 3 times.
The party did OK on ADS because the other healer was good.
This crappy healer died on the first long-line AoE ADS does, was resurrected and died in 5 seconds.

Lucky for us another healer came in a few seconds and we killed the snakes with ease.

iLvl reqs are based on a) what the testers used to clear the dungeon or trial and b) what gear drops as a reward.
to address OP's concern of jewelery raising ilevel: this is the bigger issue indeed and not the requirement. perhaps if body, legs, and weapon were heavier weighted in the average this could be avoided.

ilvl requirements are indeed a tad on the low side. The reason coil runs are still relatively successful is because there are at least 2-3 players in i90 or more carrying the group, not to mention the echo buff. Try putting a full party of 8 strangers with an ilvl of 70 in turn 1 and watch the carnage.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

ilvl requirements are indeed a tad on the low side. The reason coil runs are still relatively successful is because there are at least 2-3 players in i90 or more carrying the group, not to mention the echo buff. Try putting a full party of 8 strangers with an ilvl of 70 in turn 1 and watch the carnage.

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Who needs to try, the first groups through Turn 1, long before the devs even thought to give Coil the Echo or gate content with iLevel requirements, WERE iL60-70. It was rough, but they did it and cleared up to deeper Turns to get that sweet, sweet loot. Yet it seems people have 'conveniently' forgotten that this game used to NOT have iLevel requirements and we all cleared the dungeons, well before the nerfs, without too much trouble if you were willing to learn what to do. Nothing is on the low side except peoples' levels of tolerance.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

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You seem to be conveniently forgetting that this is df we are talking about. These are the players who vote abandon after 1-2 wipes. Compare that with highly skilled statics who cleared said content in i60-70 gear. How you can even compare the two is beyond me.

I'm not condoning the dr or the ilvl. Just stating it the way it is.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

You seem to be conveniently forgetting that this is df we are talking about. These are the players who vote abandon after 1-2 wipes. Compare that with highly skilled statics who cleared said content in i60-70 gear. How you can even compare the two is beyond me.

I'm not condoning the dr or the ilvl. Just stating it the way it is.

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No, I'm not forgetting them, I'm actually thinking of them. The first people into every dungeon knew jack about it and had to learn everything the hard way, we all did. But now we have whole swathes of people who have done the dungeons and don't feel like helping those that come after for some reason or another. Instead they're relying on iLevel to make sure they don't have to deal with these fresh people and if they're suddenly forced to group with the new people they pitch fits and get argumentative. Or worse.

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Originally Posted by alhandra

i got a smn in AK last night wearing lvl 39 mnd jewelry and using the book from stone vigil. she was nice enough tho, welcomed our advice about gearing casters and overall i think she may have learned something. all is fine and well, cuz it was just AK

however, if i encountered this kind of nubbyness in Coil i would be more than a little peeved. good thing i would never use DF for coil, why on gods green earth would anyone subject themselves to that? not only is it a crap shoot on the skill lvl of players you might get but its also alot more efficient to be able to choose the classes you take with you.

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I had an i40-i50 monk in PS with i55 weapon, cleared fine. I do coil through DF a lot and never had issue with people's gear, in many cases i dps or help with healing if dps/healer are less geared.