SMN BiS

i havent personally seen too many reliable BiS takes on SMN. so here's mine. i would like to see what you guys think. from what i hear the acc cap for smn is ~490? plz leave responses on something i may be leaving out or something that should be switched. thanks guys :D



http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/MCEI

your going to have to rely on getting oils and sands from t7+ for a lot of those loots, so it would take a long time to collect given the rest of your group would want them also.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/MBYK
Theres the BiS list i made, it has a lot more crit and relies a little more on high allagen drops than yours does, it is however a few points below acc cap for our pets, but seen as how its only a few points i dont see it being to harmful to overall dps

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Originally Posted by Zamii

your going to have to rely on getting oils and sands from t7+ for a lot of those loots, so it would take a long time to collect given the rest of your group would want them also.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/MBYK
Theres the BiS list i made, it has a lot more crit and relies a little more on high allagen drops than yours does, it is however a few points below acc cap for our pets, but seen as how its only a few points i dont see it being to harmful to overall dps

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hmm totally forgot about the oils and sands of time stuff. derp.

also, your DET is really low. i know crit is great, but with it it takes RNG right? so wouldnt goin for more DET be better since its a guaranteed DPS increase all the time?

Zamii your acc ends up at 496 which is plenty, we need like 492 I believe.

Also Det is pretty minimal for SMN. I mean it's fine, but crit is ultimately better unless you get totally RNG blocked.

I will point out though, that the allagan casting earrings are T9

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Originally Posted by Madoka

Zamii your acc ends up at 496 which is plenty, we need like 492 I believe.

Also Det is pretty minimal for SMN. I mean it's fine, but crit is ultimately better unless you get totally RNG blocked.

I will point out though, that the allagan casting earrings are T9

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for the accuracy, i chose to use apkallu omelettes for food due to having very minimal det to work with on my BiS list, and since it has accuracy on the food (which any good smn can tell you doesnt work on pets) its still actualy low.
one day SE will let us buff out egis with food (ok lets be honest thats probably just a dream) but until then, i'll live with 1 or 2 misses here n there from my egi.

as for the earrings being T9, so is the weapon thats on both of our BiS lists, more of a best case scenario, always gotta work with what we can get our hands on in the short term and aim for our goals in the long term.

I keep hearing Det is better for Smn and then I keep hearing crit is better. So I put food on to hit 606 crit with 287 Det and looked at the ticks for each dot. Then did the same for my 501 crit with 336 Det build. 7x each and Det came out the winner each time but only really by 10 dps. Could I get some feed back so I could make a bis?

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Originally Posted by KaisaaVonFaust

I keep hearing Det is better for Smn and then I keep hearing crit is better. So I put food on to hit 606 crit with 287 Det and looked at the ticks for each dot. Then did the same for my 501 crit with 336 Det build. 7x each and Det came out the winner each time but only really by 10 dps. Could I get some feed back so I could make a bis?

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did your int or weapon damage alter at all with these tests, if not then i'll have to run some tests of my own when servers come back up.

I want to quote T0rin old saying

"SMN is not intented to be Critical class"

Balance is the best, just we that lazy ass to do mad math and intense test, just only need to find what is sweet spot between Det and Crit balancing

But I am Determination addicted anyway, Determination 362 with food is way to go!

With the numbers presently found on gear, crit is usually a higher boost to your statistical dps. Yes, it is more unreliable than determination, but over the course of a regular encounter crit will almost always result in higher numbers. The RNG madness of crit is really just an issue with low hp / duration encounters, but in those cases it shouldn't make much difference either.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the difference between secondary stats is really, really small - if you compare a full det build vs a full crit build of same ilevel the differences in damage are likely gonna be smaller than the standard deviation from spells or testing errors.

SMR BiS is the following

High Allagan Grimoire of Casting
High Allagan Mask of Casting
Evenstar Coat
High Allagan Gloves of Casting
High Allagan Belt of Casting
Evenstar Tights
High Allagan boots of Casting
Evenstar Earrings
Evenstar Necklace of Casting
Evenstar Armillae of Casting
High Allagan Ring of Casting
Evenstar Ring of Casting

Gets you exactly what you need :)

My belt is my last i80 item. I'm torn between i90 belt and evenstar coat or i100 belt and...waiting another week for my coat.

These wish lists are nice, but when your company is just working on t6/7, tiered BIS lists are more useful.

The accuracy required for T9 is 491/492, and as such I have geared toward it accordingly (since I've been having attempts on it for a few weeks now). My BiS for SMN is looking like the following:

Weapon: High Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Head: High Allagan Mask of Casting
Chest: Evenstar Coat (requires Sand of Time x1)
Hands: High Allagan Gloves of Casting
Waist: Evenstar Sash of Casting (requires Sand of Time x1)
Legs: High Allagan Breeches of Casting
Feet: High Allagan Boots of Casting
Necklace: Evenstar Necklace of Casting (requires Oil of Time x1)
Earring: High Allagan Earrings of Casting
Bracelets: High Allagan Bracelet of Casting
Ring 1: Evenstar Ring of Casting (requires Oil of Time x1)
Ring 2: High Allagan Ring of Casting

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/M4NQ

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Originally Posted by Kirinichibon

My belt is my last i80 item. I'm torn between i90 belt and evenstar coat or i100 belt and...waiting another week for my coat.

These wish lists are nice, but when your company is just working on t6/7, tiered BIS lists are more useful.

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Accessories first as that will get you enough acc for t6-7 then work from there

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Originally Posted by Zamii

for the accuracy, i chose to use apkallu omelettes for food due to having very minimal det to work with on my BiS list, and since it has accuracy on the food (which any good smn can tell you doesnt work on pets) its still actualy low.
one day SE will let us buff out egis with food (ok lets be honest thats probably just a dream) but until then, i'll live with 1 or 2 misses here n there from my egi.

as for the earrings being T9, so is the weapon thats on both of our BiS lists, more of a best case scenario, always gotta work with what we can get our hands on in the short term and aim for our goals in the long term.

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Isn't apkallu omelette going to solve none of your issues? Considering you hit with below 490 acc but your egi does not, then you are boosting it with food past the acc cap except for the fact that egis do not benefit from food. So your egi will still be below acc cap with that set up. So you are wasting the food the acc portion of the food, might as well just go buttons.

You also say you are fine with 1 or 2 misses from your egi, why not just aim for a 490 acc set without needing food to get it there?

If you guys are going to claim one stat is better than another you better have hard evidence to substantiate that claim. Det was shown to be better than crit and there's been no proof of the contrary since.

Determination gives you better damage all round but crit is just as important for fester andbruin spam. So why not gear appropriately for both wit det weighing a bit heavier then crit

Torin posted a while ago showing that DET statistically parsed better than a CRIT build... by a very slight margin in the decimals. You could go either way and would probably not see the difference. Personally I think a more balanced approach is better.

My personal testing was swapping out crit heaving gear for Det heavy or just crit-less gear in T5

With allagan book and every piece of crit i90 I had I did ~340-350dps pretty often with a crit rate of 25% at best with lows of around 320 and 20% crit rates

With det and critless items (tidal wave book, moogle ribbon and some other changes but all ultimately higher int and magic damage too) I did an average of 320-330 with a high of 344 once. averaged 15-17% crit rates with this equipment. It entirely depends on how often you crit but heavy crits can outdo the sustained damage of det or underperform. Either way you actually need to test in game, not just do the math and run simulations.

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Originally Posted by Ambiguous

snip

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This is the same list I cooked up a while ago. Debating if I want to get the even star pants though since HA may be one of the drops from T9 (using sold earring because of the same reason)

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Originally Posted by Ardan

Torin posted a while ago showing that DET statistically parsed better than a CRIT build... by a very slight margin in the decimals. You could go either way and would probably not see the difference. Personally I think a more balanced approach is better.

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That is because gear in general contains less det on it than other stats, it doesn't change the fact that 1 for 1 det is considerably more valuable than crit is. The i90 crit and det sets had 71 crit vs 45 det, and both came out almost equal, which in itself proves how much stronger of a stat det is compared to crit. I see people in this threat trading away 62 det for 67 crit in their sets which is absolutely horrendous.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

My personal testing was swapping out crit heaving gear for Det heavy or just crit-less gear in T5

With allagan book and every piece of crit i90 I had I did ~340-350dps pretty often with a crit rate of 25% at best with lows of around 320 and 20% crit rates

With det and critless items (tidal wave book, moogle ribbon and some other changes but all ultimately higher int and magic damage too) I did an average of 320-330 with a high of 344 once. averaged 15-17% crit rates with this equipment. It entirely depends on how often you crit but heavy crits can outdo the sustained damage of det or underperform. Either way you actually need to test in game, not just do the math and run simulations.

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On the contrary, anecdotal evidence has very little worth. The fact that you can get as much as 30 dps difference in your results from using the same exact gear shows how unreliable it is as a form of measurement. In game testing is prone to human error which invalidates the results categorically.

It can definitely be less accurate depending on a whole slew of factors, but it's also the time when the numbers actually matter. A Simulation just pulls what it thinks your crit rate should be from probability too, when probability does not actually exist within the game. I still haven't crit on Asclepius using the tidal wave book which is pretty disappointing.

Though the BiS lists come down to nearly the same stats anyway since we just swap like 3 pieces to go from det to crit while keeping accuracy

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Originally Posted by Madoka

A Simulation just pulls what it thinks your crit rate should be from probability too

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Yet that is exactly what the tools you would use to measure dps in game do, as it's impossible for them to actually detect crits from dots so a simulation based on probabilities is ran instead to guess whether a crit occurred or not, regardless of what actually happened in game. For all intent and purposes, testing in game is running a simulation.

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Originally Posted by Seaku

Isn't apkallu omelette going to solve none of your issues? Considering you hit with below 490 acc but your egi does not, then you are boosting it with food past the acc cap except for the fact that egis do not benefit from food. So your egi will still be below acc cap with that set up. So you are wasting the food the acc portion of the food, might as well just go buttons.

You also say you are fine with 1 or 2 misses from your egi, why not just aim for a 490 acc set without needing food to get it there?

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accuracy is only a secondary stat on the omelettes, with the amount of crit i am using, the 27 crit on the omelettes is going to be better than not even coming close to hitting the stat cap on buttons for det

Both the DET and Crit BiS for SMN come out to about the same calculated potential. I'd go for the extra Crit in hopes of getting the extra pet speed procs to slightly increase Pet damage.

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Originally Posted by Zamii

accuracy is only a secondary stat on the omelettes, with the amount of crit i am using, the 27 crit on the omelettes is going to be better than not even coming close to hitting the stat cap on buttons for det

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You aren't THAT far off from the det cap. You are getting 12 instead of 16, even with your accuracy you are getting 10 instead of 11 and wasting all of it. You can just use the evenstar trousers and bracelet, that'll bump it to 14 of 16 cap while keeping 496 acc without food. Until you get that T9 book, it'll be easy to get that cap as well. As the book of spades add so much det, might as well take advantage of it.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Both the DET and Crit BiS for SMN come out to about the same calculated potential. I'd go for the extra Crit in hopes of getting the extra pet speed procs to slightly increase Pet damage.

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glad im not the only summoner than keeps that passive in the back of their mind, sure spell speed is pretty bad for summoners, but regardless a dps increase, even if slight, is still a dps increase, and this one is essentially for free.

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Originally Posted by Syrellaris

SMR BiS is the following

High Allagan Grimoire of Casting
High Allagan Mask of Casting
Evenstar Coat
High Allagan Gloves of Casting
High Allagan Belt of Casting
Evenstar Tights
High Allagan boots of Casting
Evenstar Earrings
Evenstar Necklace of Casting
Evenstar Armillae of Casting
High Allagan Ring of Casting
Evenstar Ring of Casting

Gets you exactly what you need :)

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this one is prolly my fav ive seen so far, cuz its equally det and crit. i personally like a little more det. and the crit is pretty high still. and it equal on drops from coil and the evenstar stuff. so its not too many sands and oils. good build :D

Yeah I looked at a lot of builds that people made and compared them to each other as well as give my own spins to it. Found this to be the most stable and well balanced build. That is what I am going for, now.. if I only would be in Coil second yet :p