Is the 0-Click Ban also extended to the first coil of bahamut?

Just wondering, because I thought I remember Square Enix saying that it was meant for "Coil" and not just "2nd Coil."

whats that?

There may be a "click enrage" in SCoB (from what I can understand here), probably on T8. Maybe it's a one-shot enrage and some people found a way to get past it, so they bugged the boss and downed the turn illegitimately (3 teams have been banned for non-legit T8 down). Idk.

T2 is not a bug exploit though, and SE already said they won't ever change it. Live with it bro

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

T2 is not a bug exploit though, and SE already said they won't ever change it. Live with it bro

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It's amusing that even today people are still complaining about that.
But it is as you say, it works as intended, they won't fix it but it's likely that newer content with survivable enrage mechanics will not be added.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

It's amusing that even today people are still complaining about that.
But it is as you say, it works as intended, they won't fix it but it's likely that newer content with survivable enrage mechanics will not be added.

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They never said it was intended, they just said they weren't going to change it. Not the same thing.

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Originally Posted by ispano

They never said it was intended, they just said they weren't going to change it. Not the same thing.

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Indeed. I also attempted to contact Square Enix Support on this matter, they said to check the forums instead. So, I did, and we're back at no real answer.

Turn 8's enrage is a single hit, Atomic Ray, that wipes the party. The first few clears of T8 intentionally exploited the game to avoid it. There's several ways they could've done it. I personally think it was a Z-Axis exploit (ie, they found some way to knock themselves above the battlefield and thereby avoid Atomic Ray) but any method they did it would've involved taking advantage of an unintended exploit. There is nothing unintended about T2. Globe 199 works exactly as designed and parties aren't avoiding the attack entirely. They're just healing through it. And that's totally fine.

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Originally Posted by subteraneanbird

Turn 8's enrage is a single hit, Atomic Ray, that wipes the party. The first few clears of T8 intentionally exploited the game to avoid it. There's several ways they could've done it. I personally think it was a Z-Axis exploit (ie, they found some way to knock themselves above the battlefield and thereby avoid Atomic Ray) but any method they did it would've involved taking advantage of an unintended exploit. There is nothing unintended about T2. Globe 199 works exactly as designed and parties aren't avoiding the attack entirely. They're just healing through it. And that's totally fine.

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Unintended? Do you read minds? They said they wouldn't change it, not that they never intended for people to beat it that way.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Unintended? Do you read minds? They said they wouldn't change it, not that they never intended for people to beat it that way.

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Does the ADS work the same way whether you're currently still struggling with minor bosses or only if you've already engaged him?

If ADS works the same way everywhere you are, no exploit was made.
If ADS only works that way when you've already engaged him, I still don't see any problem.

They are very capable at making one-shot enrages. Perhaps they didn't intend people to deal with it that way, but there was literally no "underhanded exploit" made, so they couldn't really change it without raising some questions.

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Originally Posted by Raestloz

Does the ADS work the same way whether you're currently still struggling with minor bosses or only if you've already engaged him?

If ADS works the same way everywhere you are, no exploit was made.
If ADS only works that way when you've already engaged him, I still don't see any problem.

They are very capable at making one-shot enrages. Perhaps they didn't intend people to deal with it that way, but there was literally no "underhanded exploit" made, so they couldn't really change it without raising some questions.

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I never said exploit. I said it wasn't likely intended, like you just said they didn't expect people to bypass all the other mechanics and just brute force heal through the enrage. Doesn't have to be an exploit to be unintended.

You misunderstand. I never said the ability to do enrage method was intended. Simply the mechanics of Globe 199 work exactly as intended. It is an instant cast, highly damaging move meant to wipe out parties weakened from doing Rot method, or parties who tried to simplify the fight to an extreme by removing too many nodes. This can be proven, as remember in patch 2.16 they accidentally decreased the wait time between Globe 199, making enrage method impossible and then a few days later intentionally returned it to it's original parameters. I don't think they expected people to be able to heal through Globe 199, but they've already proven they like Globe 199 exactly the way it is, and if that means people can trivialize the fight, then so be it.

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Originally Posted by subteraneanbird

You misunderstand. I never said the ability to do enrage method was intended. Simply the mechanics of Globe 199 work exactly as intended. It is an instant cast, highly damaging move meant to wipe out parties weakened from doing Rot method, or parties who tried to simplify the fight to an extreme by removing too many nodes. This can be proven, as remember in patch 2.16 they accidentally decreased the wait time between Globe 199, making enrage method impossible and then a few days later intentionally returned it to it's original parameters. I don't think they expected people to be able to heal through Globe 199, but they've already proven they like Globe 199 exactly the way it is, and if that means people can trivialize the fight, then so be it.

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I went by the words you posted, as in this line "There is nothing unintended about T2." which means as a whole. If you had said nothing unintended about how Globe 199 works, that would be something else entirely.

Considering I was talking specifically about enrages and only enrages in that post, it would be trivial to get that from my post. Context exists.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Unintended? Do you read minds? They said they wouldn't change it, not that they never intended for people to beat it that way.

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had they intended then that people could heal through T4 enrage and thus bypass the allowed timer ? Just curious here.

Because you know, T1's ADS does have a one shot enrage, while T2's ADS doesn't. Which means the enrage SE set up is working as intended. People in minimum iL still can't heal through i and wipe, so they take a 3rd healer to get it done. But SE never said not going as 2 tanks 2 healer 4 dps was forbidden, although it's not "as intended"

If you think of it that way, Titan Ex solo tank, Titan HM solo tank, every extreme solo heal... none of these are "as intended", as most of them have mechanics to avoid that (especially titan Ex and Levi Ex solo heal). Yet some groups did it. And noone yelled at them for not doing things "as intended".

Surviving mechanics that were not necessarily intended to be survived will become more and more common too, if iLvl keeps going up without any sort of upper iLvl syncing.

That said, that's probably intended as well. Square only really seems to be angry if people break the "current endgame"; anything that's old is allowed to become easier through a variety of means.

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

Surviving mechanics that were not necessarily intended to be survived will become more and more common too, if iLvl keeps going up without any sort of upper iLvl syncing.

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Most "not intended to be survived" mechanics do something like 20-30k damage compared to the 1500-2k or whatever Object 199 does. ADS's enrage was likely meant to be a similar enrage to Turn 4, less of a "you failed" and more a "uh oh you probably should finish this soon".

Although I guess we may get over 20k-30k hp eventually lol

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Most "not intended to be survived" mechanics do something like 20-30k damage compared to the 1500-2k or whatever Object 199 does. ADS's enrage was likely meant to be a similar enrage to Turn 4, less of a "you failed" and more a "uh oh you probably should finish this soon".

Although I guess we may get over 20k-30k hp eventually lol

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CT's Ancient flare only do 9999 damage and is already perfectly survivable :p I have yet to test if I can survive the meteor of KB as well

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

CT's Ancient flare only do 9999 damage and is already perfectly survivable :p I have yet to test if I can survive the meteor of KB as well

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You can. I've seen more than a few WARs do it. And like Estellios said for T2 and a smaller extent T4, the enrage is certainly survivable, but it's likely intent was to point out that the groups dps was slow and they need to finish up. Not, bring more healers and ignore the other mechanics.

Pardon my not being informed. But, does the T8 enrage method work the same or is some certain method utilized? I mean it's one thing to just outheal the constant damage of enrage, but if you're somehow dodging the damage of a single ability by unintended means I guess I can understand the difference in decision on it. If it's just that T8 has a instant one shot mechanic that doesn't really one shot you, then that's just stupid.

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Originally Posted by Worm

Pardon my not being informed. But, does the T8 enrage method work the same or is some certain method utilized? I mean it's one thing to just outheal the constant damage of enrage, but if you're somehow dodging the damage of a single ability by unintended means I guess I can understand the difference in decision on it. If it's just that T8 has a instant one shot mechanic that doesn't really one shot you, then that's just stupid.

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T8 Enrage = You hit 11 minutes and he's not dead, you die. 30k to everyone's faces.

and you get past that 30k with what, a tank LB or something? That seems really inconsistent, as long as it's nullified by legitimate means.

No. If it were a tank LB it would've been legitimate (though a tank LB likely wouldn't do it anyways, since enrage hits are usually unmitigatable specifically to avoid this). The people who got banned for cheating in T8 did some illegitimate, like bugging themselves above/below the arena to avoid Atomic Ray.

I remember reading a quote from Yoshi-P where he said he didn't think that people would try something like that to beat T2. So yes, unintended is the correct syntax here.

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Originally Posted by ispano

T8 Enrage = You hit 11 minutes and he's not dead, you die. 30k to everyone's faces.

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Personally I wish they had handled T2 this way, but I guess with the way T2 and T4 was designed they wanted to give people a chance at still being able to beat the encounter if they went a little longer than anticipated. At least there's no question in the new Coil turns that if you go too long it's going to be an auto-wipe.

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Originally Posted by subteraneanbird

No. If it were a tank LB it would've been legitimate (though a tank LB likely wouldn't do it anyways, since enrage hits are usually unmitigatable specifically to avoid this). The people who got banned for cheating in T8 did some illegitimate, like bugging themselves above/below the arena to avoid Atomic Ray.

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Oh, how the hell would anyone compare the two things? That's apples and oranges.

Well the problem with Rot is that it punished melee players more than ranged. Before letting the ticks hit 0 (enrage if you like) was discovered as a method to clear turn 2, melee where being omitted from turn 2 parties because of the increased chances of wiping as opposed to all ranged. "Enrage" method allowed all DDs to do it equally.

That was the major issue of Rot. Posssibly Yoshi realized that which led to his decision to leave it as it is.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Well the problem with Rot is that it punished melee players more than ranged. Before letting the ticks hit 0 (enrage if you like) was discovered as a method to clear turn 2, melee where being omitted from turn 2 parties because of the increased chances of wiping as opposed to all ranged. "Enrage" method allowed all DDs to do it equally.

That was the major issue of Rot. Posssibly Yoshi realized that which led to his decision to leave it as it is.

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Wait, what? It did nothing of the sort. Having two melee is a joke with Rot if people know what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Wait, what? It did nothing of the sort. Having two melee is a joke with Rot if people know what they are doing.

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So you are saying doing Rot with 2 to 4 melee is as easy as doing with 4 ranged and no DPS loss either?

Sure.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

So you are saying doing Rot with 2 to 4 melee is as easy as doing with 4 ranged and no DPS loss either?

Sure.

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4 it becomes a tiny bit hairy, but even with 3 melee it's easily doable. The distance rot passes and the distance between the two borders of ADS' Flank/Rear(ie on both sides) is plenty to avoid accidentally passing it to someone early. This is why I said people have to know what they're doing.

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Originally Posted by ispano

T8 Enrage = You hit 11 minutes and he's not dead, you die. 30k to everyone's faces.

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also happens if you chose to ignore the mechanics of the fight after a two minute timer.

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Originally Posted by Worm

and you get past that 30k with what, a tank LB or something? That seems really inconsistent, as long as it's nullified by legitimate means.

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he would probably keep doing it until everyone dies. look at the 2.2 trailer for reference.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

also happens if you chose to ignore the mechanics of the fight after a two minute timer.

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Indeed it does.

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Originally Posted by Worm

Oh, how the hell would anyone compare the two things? That's apples and oranges.

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Because some people are so mad that T2 can be trivialized by legitimately healing through the enrage that they'll look for any excuse to call it unacceptable. While ignoring that S-E's position on it is "wow, didn't expect people to do that but it's cool so whatever" meaning it will likely never actually be changed.

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Originally Posted by subteraneanbird

Because some people are so mad that T2 can be trivialized by legitimately healing through the enrage that they'll look for any excuse to call it unacceptable. While ignoring that S-E's position on it is "wow, didn't expect people to do that but it's cool so whatever" meaning it will likely never actually be changed.

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Actually, the problem a fair amount of us have with T2 isn't that you can heal through the enrage. I mean if your DPS is a little slow and you clip the enrage and heal through it to finish the fight, fine. It's that people literally WAIT for it to bypass other mechanics instead of dealing with them.

And? It is still 100% legitimate. It is not going anywhere. My suggestion is to just deal with it? good lord.

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Originally Posted by subteraneanbird

And? It is still 100% legitimate. It is not going anywhere. My suggestion is to just deal with it? good lord.

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You missed the point. It creates an issue in that players would rather find a way to bypass a fight's mechanics instead of deal with it properly. If they can't "cheese" the fight in some way, it's too much and they give up. It's bad precedence, which is why many of us are glad 6-9 have helped remedy it.

Another note. I won't bash or harass anyone for doing it that way. When I needed to get T2 done after my first static died, I always asked people which method they would do for T2, and decline if they did it that way so as to not waste my or their time. And yet I get told to "get off my high horse" for being that way. So in my experience, people on the other side are just as bitter.

So, long story short? People who wish to "abuse" the enrage that way, can "deal with it" in regards to people not liking it or supporting it.

TBH, the only reason why people who could find a team to pass rot on T2 tend not to do the soft enrage method is because rot passing, when done right, is faster to complete T2.

Any other argument is purely personal views, nothing else. I don't get why people are still fighting over this. As long as SE says it isn't illegal, then it's fine.

A handful of fights in this game have mechanics that can trivialized fully or part-thereof. Titan HM, you could skip a few bombs before heart phase if your DPS is up there. Heart phase you could skip the circle bombs if you can break the heart before he summons them. In Ifrit EX, the searing wind can be trivialized by having a full ranged DPS team. T5, your MT walks into conflag to avoid DS which the whole infirmity debuff mechanic is meant for a tank swap. In T6, if you have sufficient DPS, you can forget about slugs and just burn the boss down. In T8, brainjack had the intention of a tank swap but it can be trivialized by placing a DPS close to your solo tank.

Are all these illegitimate ways to deal with the fight? SE doesn't say so. One shouldn't be that narrow minded and think that there is only one single way to clear a fight, which is to deal with every single intended mechanic. Honestly, all these different strats impresses me, it shows that people think out of the box and have creativity. As long as they clear the fight legitimately as deemed by SE, I couldn't care less if they skip mechanics or not.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

TBH, the only reason why people who could find a team to pass rot on T2 tend not to do the soft enrage method is because rot passing, when done right, is faster to complete T2.

Any other argument is purely personal views, nothing else. I don't get why people are still fighting over this. As long as SE says it isn't illegal, then it's fine.

A handful of fights in this game have mechanics that can trivialized fully or part-thereof. Titan HM, you could skip a few bombs before heart phase if your DPS is up there. Heart phase you could skip the circle bombs if you can break the heart before he summons them. In Ifrit EX, the searing wind can be trivialized by having a full ranged DPS team. T5, your MT walks into conflag to avoid DS which the whole infirmity debuff mechanic is meant for a tank swap. In T6, if you have sufficient DPS, you can forget about slugs and just burn the boss down. In T8, brainjack had the intention of a tank swap but it can be trivialized by placing a DPS close to your solo tank.

Are all these illegitimate ways to deal with the fight? SE doesn't say so. One shouldn't be that narrow minded and think that there is only one single way to clear a fight, which is to deal with every single intended mechanic. Honestly, all these different strats impresses me, it shows that people think out of the box and have creativity. As long as they clear the fight legitimately as deemed by SE, I couldn't care less if they skip mechanics or not.

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Again, I said I don't harass or such anyone who does it. Also SE will never say it was illegitimate or not. More than likely(not fact, just based on what they've done in the past) they saw people using it and noticed the mistake, and since it was their mistake, left it as is.

Lastly, there's a large difference between your examples and what's done on T2. T2 enrage pretty much bypasses ALL of ADS' mechanics, not skipping phases or a single mechanic. T2 enrage you don't deal with the laser, or repelling cannons, or tank swap or the various abilities he has depending on your route. Not just one mechanic, all of them.

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Originally Posted by ispano

4 it becomes a tiny bit hairy, but even with 3 melee it's easily doable. The distance rot passes and the distance between the two borders of ADS' Flank/Rear(ie on both sides) is plenty to avoid accidentally passing it to someone early. This is why I said people have to know what they're doing.

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Which is exactly my point XD a Line of ranged who side step then back, then group up, or melee who have to watch positioning, Rot and then having to move out of melee to pass the rot puts more pressure on the melee than the ranged thus increasing chance of failure.

There's one mechanic you seem loathe to admit isn't possible to skip in T2, due to what is obviously a personal bias: the buffs. You still have to pick the right nodes to take to ensure you don't earn any buffs that complicate the fight. I've seen parties wipe T2 because they have 3 casters and instead of picking the safer route that would add the entirely harmless Blunt Resistance buff they kill the Disposal Node and add Magic Resistance. Ergo, they lowered their DPS extremely and could no longer pass the check. Additionally, T2 enrage is a method that STILL requires a lot from healers (if you think it's just "spamming" abilities, you're wrong) and again, I've seen wipes due to singular tiny mistakes. It's pretty clear your argument stems from a personal bias that amounts to "I don't like T2 enrage, therefore it's bad" regardless of the actual realities. As was said, about the only reason to go for Rot is it is slightly shorter, due to not waiting 6-7 minutes having a tea party.

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Originally Posted by subteraneanbird

There's one mechanic you seem loathe to admit isn't possible to skip in T2, due to what is obviously a personal bias: the buffs. You still have to pick the right nodes to take to ensure you don't earn any buffs that complicate the fight.

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You can say this as much as you want, it still pretty much invalidates the whole fight's mechanics. There's really nothing you can counter that with because that's exactly what it does. You can give your opinion or view of that, but it doesn't change what's happening. In any other game, if people find a way to avoid most or all of a fight's mechanics like this, the fight gets fixed.

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Originally Posted by ispano

In any other game, if people find a way to avoid most or all of a fight's mechanics like this, the fight gets fixed.

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I don't know about that.
Its definitely unintended.
But if they really wanted to fix it, they would have.
They fixed the LoS exploit to avoid Doom in Qarn.
Rot is an interesting mechanic.
However, its annoying to newcomers.
I don't mind it if its me and another random DRG.
MNKs on the other hand..... >_>
They made it so if you hit Enrage, you wouldn't also have to deal with Rot.
They just didn't expect people to take advantage.
Promotes creativity, imo.
Sometimes encourages laziness, but whatev.
If Enrage weren't around, the number of all ranged parties would come back up again.
It is what it is.
There's no point in changing it now.