Feels good to play with people like this

last night after getting tired of seeing the same "exp only, death=kick" on everything i made decided to pf with the exact opposite. it was for t5, and the majority of the people that joined had either only made it to conflags, or snakes. that was totally fine. i had made the party with that in mind. like expected, the first few trys were rough, but once we had a generally good plan, we got further and further. one of the people ended up quiting, so we left to replace and on the second try, we made it to dive bombs. all that we had to tell the two new people was how we were doing fireballs and conflags.overall, for 10 or so tries, we got pretty far, and more people got exp for the fight. everyone enjoyed talking with eachother and learning, instead of automaticly being expected to know everything and being ridiculed for not having the luck to have 7 other people(or a fc) that is willing to help them. i plan to keep doing pf like this in the hopes more people get experience in the fight, make new friends, and hopefully down t5.

I've been thinking about just doing pf for everything and never using df again. Tome bonuses be damned.

So...Kaze.
Does you icon look like this to you?
http://i5.minus.com/jb1cn84juqMVw3.jpg

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Originally Posted by Gramul

So...Kaze.
Does you icon look like this to you?
http://i5.minus.com/jb1cn84juqMVw3.jpg

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yea my icon is messed up. aside from not showing me as a lalafell.

Well, at the end of the day, this is a game and should not be treated as a secondary job.

I refuse to get treated as an employee or some second tier citizen by the "elite" in this game and would prefer to run with bads with great attitudes all day.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

yea my icon is messed up. aside from not showing me as a lalafell.

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Weird. Hope that clears up for you.

Also glad to hear you're having fun in good company.

People learn from their mistakes? How the hell does that work?! I thought we were all supposed to automatically be blessed with the knowledge of every fight...

Seriously, though, a constantly rotating death = kick roster just naturally seems like it would take longer to finally get a win, than by communicating what to do and how to do it so everyone's on the same page in a fight. I really don't get this backwards thinking that dying = failure instead of dying equals = learning.

Turn 5 is one of those things you have to be patient on. You shouldn't always expect perfection. Even if someone dies to twisters, it's not a big deal. Twisters is late into the fight. If they learn how to dodge them (which isn't hard) then the fight is won.

I'm glad you found a group you enjoyed playing with. :) Everyone learns better when they can be upfront and honest about what they know. That is, they won't be afraid to ask questions or bring up problems so everyone can figure it out. I hope you have added those people to your friends list, as those people are the ones you will probably want to play with in the future!

I try to be 100% upfront and honest when I make a PF group so that no one is mislead. I'll be super specific, too: "Teaching one FC member T5; everyone else is experienced. May take a few tries." If people join and don't know what they are getting themselves into, they didn't read the comment. I refuse to join 'one death = kick' parties, no matter how experienced or 'pro' I am at a fight. I just don't like playing with those kinds of people, and everyone has that choice.

I run T5 'learning parties' on a regular basis (at least once a week) to help FC/LS/friends, and I usually throw up a PF comment about it too... so I am more than happy to help people when they need it. That said, it annoys me when people join a farming party and try to 'fake it until you make it'. I made one T5 farming party for people to work on their weapons... I wasn't a stickler and did not check achievements or force people to link a weapon. We wiped several times because of a WHM who swore he had won before. After we finally won (at least 30-40 minutes later), I saw that he got his first win achievement. I felt deceived, and very annoyed, because they essentially wasted our time. A situation like the one I encountered may just be what drives people to make the 'one death = kick' parties, but the important thing to remember is that a lot of groups that say that end up falling apart anyway. As always, attitude and willingness to adapt when it is needed > simple knowledge of a fight.

Repeat that experience over and over again every time you get someone new and it gets old fast.

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Originally Posted by Xerich

Well, at the end of the day, this is a game and should not be treated as a secondary job.

I refuse to get treated as an employee or some second tier citizen by the "elite" in this game and would prefer to run with bads with great attitudes all day.

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Yep always try to shame with "elite" status cause someone doesn't have hours to help teach someone every time they put up party finder lol. Wanna talk about being treated as an employee or a second tier citizen cause you are forced to train someone every time you want to do anything that requires a group or take the chance of being called an elite or worse. Sorry Im not your tutor, trainer, personal helper or servant.

Sometimes you just wanna get it done or you just have time for a quick win.

Sorry if I don't have 3 hrs to teach you a run every time I wanna do anything that requires party/duty finder. Talk about turning this game into a secondary job.

When I do, I put in "learning party", "newcomers welcome" or something of that sort. And we tend to have a good time when I do!

glad to see there are at least still some people who hold the same thoughts i had when i started this game back in 1.0(granted i couldnt use that account for jack squat). whole point is to have fun learning with people. on principle, i dont like watching videos of someone doing a fight until i have at least done it once. i would rather have a server full of people that have exp in everything thanks to everyone helping eachother learn and get thru things rather then a server with 1/10 of the server having content on lock down, and then expecting everyone else to automaticaly be at the same level as them.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Repeat that experience over and over again every time you get someone new and it gets old fast.

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yes and no. people have different levels of patience. i intend to do this for as long as i can, purely for the teaching/learning exp. once next coils gets unlocked i will do the same. do i expect people to automaticaly know everything to do in a fight? no, but seeing as how this game is mostly reaction based, i hope they have at least some good reaction time, or can build it.

I got my first twintania kill in a PF group.

I see people complain about the PF, but the option to make your own group is always there.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

friendly elitism

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thats just it. its not always a long teaching experience. and yes, some people will want that fast win, and sometimes they get that win, but when someone either has to lie about experience or hope they find 7 others that want to try something, it just screams wrong. as a community, shouldnt we try to help people who are struggling with something? in my case, i havent downed t5 mainly because my static broke apart. now t5 is on farm for a good number of people, and no one is willing to help others learn it. watching a video can only get you so far. actually doing something will teach you more, but you cant do it if no one is willing.

before it gets said, no, im not asking everyone to carry people, just saying try to see how you look in a "lower" persons eyes. you have all that amazing and hard to get gear, they want to reach that level. off chance someone says you look cool or congrat you on it, and you just so happen to put up a pf that puts down everyone that doesnt have what you have. you have now given that person a glimpse as how people "on top" see others. as garbage, kick worthy, and for some reason, sometimes blist worthy. and yes, some people have been blisted for making a simple mistake, or sometimes, latency.

I totally agree we should as a community help each other out. I am willing to teach or help someone out and do so regularly but so many ppl expect us to be in teacher-mode every time we put up party finder and sometimes that is just as non-doable with our schedules as it is with their schedule. And frankly it gets a little tiring to be called names and badgered all the time cause tonight you just want a quick run.

As a community the casuals need to understand that the so-called "elites" are not at their beck and call. The real elitism isn't the hardcore crowd but the crowd who expects everyone to drop what they are doing and help them out right frakin now just cause their schedule doesn't allow them to play as much or they don't have a fc that does that content.

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Originally Posted by ruinedmirage

People learn from their mistakes? How the hell does that work?! I thought we were all supposed to automatically be blessed with the knowledge of every fight...

Seriously, though, a constantly rotating death = kick roster just naturally seems like it would take longer to finally get a win, than by communicating what to do and how to do it so everyone's on the same page in a fight. I really don't get this backwards thinking that dying = failure instead of dying equals = learning.

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Because the group with those rules isn't intended for learning. It's expected you know the fight in and out pretty much. So why join if you don't know the fight through and through?

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

thats just it. its not always a long teaching experience. and yes, some people will want that fast win, and sometimes they get that win, but when someone either has to lie about experience or hope they find 7 others that want to try something, it just screams wrong. as a community, shouldnt we try to help people who are struggling with something? in my case, i havent downed t5 mainly because my static broke apart. now t5 is on farm for a good number of people, and no one is willing to help others learn it. watching a video can only get you so far. actually doing something will teach you more, but you cant do it if no one is willing.

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Then they shouldn't be lying about their experience.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

yes and no. people have different levels of patience. i intend to do this for as long as i can, purely for the teaching/learning exp. once next coils gets unlocked i will do the same. do i expect people to automaticaly know everything to do in a fight? no, but seeing as how this game is mostly reaction based, i hope they have at least some good reaction time, or can build it.

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That's some kind of patience since it can be hours upon hours of going through the early phases. I only do that type of stuff for mostly players I know because that's quite a lot of work. I think this is more of the responsibility of a good FC to do this type of stuff. You never know the type of players you're helping as well. A lot of them can just be the type that uses players and never helps back. I don't mind helping kind players though and it depends on my mood.

My main problem with T5 PF groups is that nobody seems to know how to dps...

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Originally Posted by ispano

bad point good point

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what ruined is saying is that one mistake should not mean you get kicked. more often than not, i have gone into levi ex in groups that say farm/no new people death equals replace, and the person that started the group somehow dies first. or to something easy. should they be held to their own standard? yes, but they never are.
as for the lying about experience, its somewhat crazy that someone can make a pf looking for new people and no one joins, but a farm or kill exp has new people. no one wants to admit that they are behind others when it comes to content. no one enjoys being looked down on, even more so when its something designed to have fun with other people.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

what ruined is saying is that one mistake should not mean you get kicked. more often than not, i have gone into levi ex in groups that say farm/no new people death equals replace, and the person that started the group somehow dies first. or to something easy. should they be held to their own standard? yes, but they never are.
as for the lying about experience, its somewhat crazy that someone can make a pf looking for new people and no one joins, but a farm or kill exp has new people. no one wants to admit that they are behind others when it comes to content. no one enjoys being looked down on, even more so when its something designed to have fun with other people.

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I've seen leaders hold to their own standards on many occasions. Most that don't, should be lumped in with those lying about their experience, because that's what they're doing for the most part. Also, most of the groups I see like this, aren't one mistake, usually two or if you keep making the same ones.

But you know what? No one has to join those groups. People, on both sides, need to, and i'm sorry, but grow up. If i'm new or inexperienced at something, I will tell the group. I won't let myself be bothered by people that look down on you or harass you, because all that does is encourage them to do it more. And fun is subjective, people need to stop bring that "argument".

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

completely agree

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yes there is a line where helping others goes to far, and people are not at beck and call. when you have 6 active LS and no one in any of them are willing/able to help on any of them, it really hurts, because you felt that the people in the LS were somewhat close, like a FC.

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Originally Posted by ispano

very true

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as have i. that doesnt and shouldnt allow the thought "oh you havent done this before? you must suck at this game" to become the norm.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

as have i. that doesnt and shouldnt allow the thought "oh you havent done this before? you must suck at this game" to become the norm.

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And it's not the norm. It's actually a rarity in comparison.

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Originally Posted by ispano

And it's not the norm. It's actually a rarity in comparison.

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sadly, it is the norm. when 10 out of 11 groups in pf consist of "no newbs/bads will kick on death" and the 11th being atma, it becomes a toxic breeding ground for hate of anyone that isnt at someone elses lvl of skill.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

last night after getting tired of seeing the same "exp only, death=kick" on everything i made decided to pf with the exact opposite. it was for t5, and the majority of the people that joined had either only made it to conflags, or snakes. that was totally fine. i had made the party with that in mind. like expected, the first few trys were rough, but once we had a generally good plan, we got further and further. one of the people ended up quiting, so we left to replace and on the second try, we made it to dive bombs. all that we had to tell the two new people was how we were doing fireballs and conflags.overall, for 10 or so tries, we got pretty far, and more people got exp for the fight. everyone enjoyed talking with eachother and learning, instead of automaticly being expected to know everything and being ridiculed for not having the luck to have 7 other people(or a fc) that is willing to help them. i plan to keep doing pf like this in the hopes more people get experience in the fight, make new friends, and hopefully down t5.

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And once you have your kill and you go back to farm gear, what then? Will you reteach everyone all over? Will you take multiple days per win, with dozens of wipes in the process? Will you have the patience to put hours upon hours into something that you can otherwise avoid based on who you choose to bring?

Or... or, will you want a group that can get in and get things done quickly? Will you only look for people who are experienced (like yourself will then be)? I bet after you sink countless hours, and put in all the time and effort, that you'll finally view things from the other side and you won't be so patient with each and every group.

If you say you'll continue to teach, you're a liar. If you restrict based on experience and prior kills, then you've become the very person who you're trying to "shame" in your post.

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Originally Posted by MurakumoMillennium

wow

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not trying to shame anyone, and yes, i will continue to do t5 groups with new people. we wipe we wipe. not everyone is of the "i got this done, i dont need to do it any more" mindset. its enjoyable for me to have a group i am with push past the last death point and get past things. as for sinking hours, i have already done that with t5 before my static fell apart. and will still do it for however long i do.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

ridiculed for not having the luck to have 7 other people(or a fc) that is willing to help them.

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This is the part I start to balk at some. It's not luck. It's socializing. It's actively going out and seeking a group of people with the same set of goals as you and to work together to achieve them. It's not a die-roll or a coil flip. You seek people out and do your best to mesh and make it work. It requires a level of commitment some people don't have the ability or will to have, and that's entirely understandable. It's not luck though, and it's also not waiting for help.

I'm glad you found folks to play with though. Consider remembering their names and maybe working a schedule together with them so you can meet again to continue your progress.

-edit- read newer posts since i typed this

If you like playing with new people, all the power to you. Those people would likely appreciate it too. Like an earlier poster said, it just gets old for some of us after a while.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

not trying to shame anyone, and yes, i will continue to do t5 groups with new people. we wipe we wipe. . and will still do it for however long i do.

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If you truly can keep going at it for more then a week or two, then you're truly like in the .001 percentile of the player base. I can't imagine doing Titan Ext over and over again with new players. Most of the players that you end up helping will eventually turn into the players that put "know the fight" or "No newbies" when they make pf groups. It's nice of you to do all that stuff but I think in the end you'll just most likely end up being used rather than helping the community.

ITT: butthurt

It's okay guys, your in game status is not being threatened because someone enjoys doing content in DF.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

sadly, it is the norm. when 10 out of 11 groups in pf consist of "no newbs/bads will kick on death" and the 11th being atma, it becomes a toxic breeding ground for hate of anyone that isnt at someone elses lvl of skill.

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No, those people are just making the groups. It's because the inexperienced won't make their own most of the time. Doesn't make it the norm.

I was in a newcomers group once for coil.
Our tank rage quit and called everyone noob

Since then I've never ever touched partyfinder.

Exp/kill groups are for killing, learning groups are for learning. The people who make exp groups already spent however many hours it took them to learn the fight and are now looking for other players who have put similar efforts so that they can go for the kill together.

If you want a learning group, you can join one or make one yourself. Both exp and learning groups can exist and both serve a purpose, one doesn't have to replace the other.

x.x What happened to this thread?

It was a nice thread, about having a nice group and someone actually going out of their way to help people who feel left behind at endgame. And then people came in and started up the stupid "elitists-v-casuals" nonsense that's pervaded this forum lately when it actually only had a tiny tangential link to this topic >>

We get it, you don't like helping new people. That's fine. Why feel the need to act all superior and go "well when you've done it twenty million times with new people, you'll feel the same way"? Completely missing the point >>

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Originally Posted by Seobit

good point

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i dont expect one to replace the other. it just seems that on our server, everyone is afraid to try to pf a t5 group. the majority i have seen are kill exp or gil charging. most people are trying to save for a fc house, and t5 gil kill is pretty high for one person (cheapest i have seen is 1.5 mil). granted, they let that person lot on an item. the only real problem i have with the charging is if that person pulls their own weight, it should become a discount. they die, they pay full price.