Kinda sketchy upgrades for crafters..

For one, it seems like goldsmith got nothing from this patch worth anything. Why didnt they get to make some il90 jewelry?
Secondly, and my major concern, once again it feels like you guys value the rich and powerful over everyone else. People like me cant do this. Do you know how much it costs to perfectly meld gear? With fails alone, people have spent up tp 700,000 gil. People like me can't afford to spend that much on the chance to make NQ il90 gear (like il87). Not only must you be perfectly melded, but you must also have most of the other crafts for their skills. I feel like this should be dummbed down a bit (inb4 l2 play replies) not by much. But make it so someone who doesnt have 1million gil lyo g around can afford to meld up and do this. I say make craftsmanship need 375 and control need 360. That's in everyone's grasp. That wont be good enough to HQ it so you would need to work more, but it would allow some poorer yet still dedicated folks make stuff like the spring dress.

I choose those numbers because even with all my 100% meld slots and even a multiple over melds, im still short of those numbers. It WILL still require work. People will drop like 100k melding, but they'll atleast have hope that they can make those il90's

I'm in agreement. The requirements are very high, and just getting on the ladder is difficult as you need to HQ 5 items which require 'tome' materials for the recipe book. This would be less of an issue if the philosophy tomes were still in place, but they've moved everything to seals which are slower to gather up and now cost twice as much. Maybe the intention was to force us to craft tons of ilvl 55 gear to trade in for a few hundred seals a piece...

Worse is the fact that even once you've gone through the expense of crafting 5 HQ Vanya (for example) and your 60(!) HQ silver brocade for your weapon and headgear (requiring no less than 240 crawler cocoons) you still won't hit your target values without some insanely complex melds.

Had they been smart about it, they would have given us some new crafting gear which could actually be CRAFTED by ourselves, perhaps as an extension of the master recipe books so they could keep the 5x HQ Vanya requirements. That way, at least there's still a strong cost association, but we have more options on how to raise our skills to a high enough level to make the 3-star synths.

At the very least, it would give us a more solid base for improving our HQ chance on those same crafts.

Honestly after giving this a careful examination I decided it wasn't worth the effort. if the gear you were crafting was ilvl 100-110 maybe, but all that work so I can craft gear that isn't even on the same tier as the current dungeon gear? I am perfectly happy being able to make my 2 star foods for the endgame. I got full i90 gear for my main jobs and that is good enough until my Coil team catches up to T6+

when the level cap goes up and they have to release new gear for crafters then maybe. in the meantime when I have surplus seals I'll buy Tome mats and put them away, but at those prices I'm not even sure I'll bother with that, 2500 seals is kinda insane even if I can get them relatively easily (i got 2500 in an hour last night on 2 gathering and 2 crafting turn ins)

three star crafting can basically be likened to coil for crafting classes. I really don't see whats wrong with setting the bar high and making it a challenge to do. Patches only come every 3-4 months, there's no reason to expect everybody to beable to jump in and start doing 3 star master crafts right away. They're called master crafts for a reason, and making them challenging gives it more purpose.

Challenge implies difficulty, not relentlessly grinding the same recipes 60 times praying for a HQ on Every. Single. Craft. On 40 durability items. With a high cost requirement. That's not even including the cost of getting the recipe book in the first instance.

If DoW/DoM suddenly had to spend hundreds of thousands on materia's and materials to level their gear you can bet your chocobo there would be an outcry. Apparently, this is all fine and dandy if you're a crafter though. I mean, we've been getting shafted since the start, so why cut us any slack now, right?

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Originally Posted by cearka

three star crafting can basically be likened to coil for crafting classes. I really don't see whats wrong with setting the bar high and making it a challenge to do. Patches only come every 3-4 months, there's no reason to expect everybody to beable to jump in and start doing 3 star master crafts right away. They're called master crafts for a reason, and making them challenging gives it more purpose.

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I agree that this is likened to coil for crafting classes, so they should reward should be as enticing. As the OP pointed out, NQ i90 recipes aren't really i90 in their stats more ~ 87. I would be much happier to invest the large sums of gil involved to craft these items (such as gearing and unlocking master ALC, BSM and ARM just to make the ARM gear independently) if NQ actually = i90 and HQ = i95/i100. I had the same issue when crafting was at the i70 top tier in that NQ should have been i70 and HQ should have been imo i75. But due to the ease in guaranteeing HQ I think most (myself included) eventually ignored the problem. Now that HQ is actually difficult to reach (from what i'm hearing haven't tried myself yet) we should get a bigger benefit from it, and making the gear stats actually equivalent to the ilvl printed on the gear isn't good enough benefit.

Let's not forget that we're using materials bought with myth which can also buy proper i90 without any risk, and there is now dungeon dropped gear at an equivocal level that can be quickly farmed in coil 1-4(5), where as previously highest farmable dungeon drops was i60 vs i70ish craft. The effort of getting a craft to this level and then HQ should be a greater reward than either other the above.

I haven't managed to get any of the new 3-star items made yet with my LTW, mostly because with a fully penta-melded set of AF gear and jewelry my stats are still nowhere near being high enough without the new tool/headpiece. However comparing the NQ ilevel 90 gear you can craft, It's sub-par to the ilevel 80 gear you get from Crystal Tower. I would hope that HQ versions of these items will at least be marginally better than the CT drops and then adding melds to them will help to bring them close to existing ilevel 90 gear available from Myth tomes. Just a shame that it is still at much greater cost than acquiring the Myth gear is and it's still not necessarily going to be on par with Myth gear.

As a 3 Star Crafter currently 5/8 Completed with more than 10 3 stars HQ made and over 10millions spent on upgrades. I have difficulties to sell the 3 stars over 1mil, I hope to get my investment back. Currently sitting at 405 Craftmanship / 380 Control (No Food) on a near perfectly meld'd AF gears and thats for my best geared class (weaver).

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Originally Posted by Asura_Yuuki

As a 3 Star Crafter currently 5/8 Completed with more than 10 3 stars HQ made and over 10millions spent on upgrades. I have difficulties to sell the 3 stars over 1mil, I hope to get my investment back. Currently sitting at 405 Craftmanship / 380 Control (No Food) on a near perfectly meld'd AF gears and thats for my best geared class (weaver).

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Is this including the new class tool and headgear? If not, would you mind listing your gear/melds?

All in all, we just need better gear...

Ive got 392 craftsmanship, 372 control, and 348 CP on my Cul, with every piece of gear having 4/5 melds, and the new head and weapon.
Given the current amount of control available, and the fact that you must use a specific set of actions to actually complete the progress portion, namely 2 Piece By Piece and 3 CS2... or 3 PbP and 2 CS2, but that costs an extra 15 CP... you only really have room for 5 quality actions... or 8 80% Hasty Touches if you want to pray to the RNG gods.

The issue is that even with all HQ materials, you NEED... NEED 6 successful quality actions + GS-BB to get to 100%. If you have 5 actions, you'll really only get ~2072-2100 quality, which will put you at ~90-91% of the bar... so maybe an 80% HQ chance.

With 6 actions, be it 6 BT's or 6 HT's, BB will be buffed enough to bring your total to a little over 2500, which should get you to 100% if you start with HQ's.

ATM you can do a rotation, with bis CP food and pretty much max CP melds, that has 8 HT's, which mathematically has a 79.1% chance of having 6+ succeed.

OR, I have found a rotation that manages to sneak in 6 BT's... but requires a monstrous, and currently unattainable 400 CP... Or 382 CP IF you want to deal with an 80% HT...

Aside from those 2... I mean, we could always craft like in the good old days, with no rotations or macros... and PRAY that we get a Good or Excellent condition at a suitable time to throw down the BB hammer... And pray again that it lands.

Challenge doesn't match reward here.

SE change your attitude about Crafters already.

Figure it cant hurt, so I'll just post my rotations here. Maybe someone can come up with something better.
Keep in mind that these rotations are designed for the 80 Dur, 445 Progress, 4980 Quality 3 stars, and assume you will start with mostly HQ materials.

1. 400 CP, 0 RNG.
CZ-IQ-SH2-WN2-PbPx2-BTx2-SH2-BTx4-SH-GS-Ing2-BB-CS2x3
*Currently unattainable amount of CP* Q.Q

2. 382 CP, 1 RNG.
CZ-IQ-SH2-WN2-PbPx2-(HT)-BT-SH2-BTx4-SH-GS-Ing2-BB-CS2x3
Your best bet is to do this rotation by hand. If you get a Good condition after CZ or IQ, then you can replace the HT with a BT.
If you dont get a Good on the first 2 steps, and HT fails, then you can just use Reclaim and spam HT to fail the synth and hopefully get your items back. Without 6 IQ stacks, you will only get about 2k quality, and have maybe an 80% HQ chance.

3. Variations...
400 CP 1 RNG.
CZ*-IQ*-SH2-WN2-PbPx2-(HT)-BT-SH2-BTx3-BT*-SH*-GS*-Inno-Ing2-BB-CS2x3

382 CP 2 RNG.
CZ*-IQ*-SH2-WN2-PbPx2-(HT)-(HT)-SH2-BTx3-BT*-SH*-GS*-Inno-Ing2-BB-CS2x3

Yes, it looks like a mess. Here goes.
The *'s indicate places where you can use ToT without messing up the rotation. Every time you get a ToT, you can replace a (HT) with a BT.
Similarly, you can add or remove the Innovation after GS if you get a ToT, depending on the rotation you are using.

So all in all, since we currently cannot get 400 CP, our best bet is Rotation 2, 382 w/ 1 RNG with dynamic adjustments as needed.
The point of no return is roughly when we get to Great Strides. At this time, all touches have been completed. If you have 6 touches (7 IQ buff), then continue, if not, Reclaim and spam HT to fail. If you have 6, and have 74+ CP, then you can use Innovation after Great Strides, which will give you an extra ~334 quality on BB.

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So for fun, lets do a general "simulation", starting with as many HQ components as possible.
CZ* - ToT if a Good appears after this step.
IQ* - ToT if Good.
SH2
WN2
PbPx2
(HT) - 1 ToT = BT [Note]
BT
SH2
BTx3
BT* - ToT if Good.
SH* - ToT (One not both)
GS* - ToT (One not both) [Note 2]
(Inno) - If you have 74 or more CP after using Great Strides, use Inno, if not, continue on to Ing2.
Ing2
BB
CS2x3

[Note] So if we got a Good on one of our 2 chances so far, do BT. If not, still do HT and hope it succeeds. If it does not succeed, you WILL get no more than ~2379 quality from the remainder of the process. This is the best time to Reclaim and retry.
[Note 2] The timing of this phase is not terribly flexible. You can fit 1... ONE! ToT after using SH. If you somehow hit ToT after both SH and GS, and then use Inno, then SH will not be up for BB... Remember, you only need 1 ToT between the replaced HT and Inno.

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Originally Posted by Hoobala_Boobala

blablabla

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HQ penta melded gears ARE iL95 quality and they could be on even vs iL100 gears when the tier V materias are out.
Just compare those penta melded HQ iL70 (with 5 tier IV materias) vs CT iL80 you will see.

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Originally Posted by ImDingDing

HQ penta melded gears ARE iL95 quality and they could be on even vs iL100 gears when the tier V materias are out.
Just compare those penta melded HQ iL70 (with 5 tier IV materias) vs CT iL80 you will see.

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No matter how you look at it, you'll never be able to reach the same primary stats of an item 5-10 ilvls higher.
You can meld a NQ to get HQ base stats but you can't get any higher than that. Tier V materia won't change the caps either.
Unless the secondary stats suddenly became much more powerfull, you won't be able to make up for the lower primary stats.


That aside, I agree with Gesser.
The effort required for the new recipes doesn't match the result/reward.

NQ should have primary stats like ilvl90.
HQ should have primary stats like ilvl100 or at least ilvl95.


If SE is concerned about crafters flooding the servers and people buying stuff instead of doing the dungeons/raids why don't they just make a set of ilvl100 crafted items which bind on pickup?
I, for my part, am not after making gil by selling lots of stuff. I want to make the gear for myself and provide lower level FC members with gear as needed.

Whatever they do, crafting should play a more important role than providing buff food for endgame.

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Originally Posted by Shyzune_Nymuro

Do you know how much it costs to perfectly meld gear? With fails alone, people have spent up tp 700,000 gil.

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I was using patricians until 2.2, so now I've made the wvr specific set. I spent over 700k just melding the 5 wvr pieces (I already had the jewelery, etc). I agree with the sentiment expressed elsewhere in the thread, that this isn't "difficult" it's just expensive and time consuming. Furthermore, the benefits are somewhat underwhelming - really the biggest benefit comes to those who get there first and can profit... (rich getting richer?)

I like the new crafts and requirements.

It should take some effort to make the best crafted items.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

2. 382 CP, 1 RNG.
CZ-IQ-SH2-WN2-PbPx2-(HT)-BT-SH2-BTx4-SH-GS-Ing2-BB-CS2x3
Your best bet is to do this rotation by hand. If you get a Good condition after CZ or IQ, then you can replace the HT with a BT.
If you dont get a Good on the first 2 steps, and HT fails, then you can just use Reclaim and spam HT to fail the synth and hopefully get your items back. Without 6 IQ stacks, you will only get about 2k quality, and have maybe an 80% HQ chance.

So all in all, since we currently cannot get 400 CP, our best bet is Rotation 2, 382 w/ 1 RNG with dynamic adjustments as needed.
The point of no return is roughly when we get to Great Strides. At this time, all touches have been completed. If you have 6 touches (7 IQ buff), then continue, if not, Reclaim and spam HT to fail. If you have 6, and have 74+ CP, then you can use Innovation after Great Strides, which will give you an extra ~334 quality on BB.

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This is amazing work - great job! I love the * for places to use ToT!

However, if I understand correctly, recalaim is also NOT 100%, so I would say that's a very big second RNG risk. Looking at the prices of materials and products, I think I'd rather take the risk of getting NQ and losing some profit?

No, Reclaim is 90%.
Thing is, an NQ is roughly I85-87 in terms of stats... Why spend more tomes on an I87 when you can just buy an I90 for less?

For most practical purposes, an NQ, unless its food or a component, is kinda worthless. So Reclaim is there to give you a 9/10 shot at doing it again. And hope your luck is better.

I personally would never wear NQ (except to make materia), but I would rather craft NQ than risk failure to craft anything at all (and lose the expensive materials).


Materials for ilv 90 wvr crafted item was easily 200k. If reclaim fails, I lose 200k (sure it's 90% succes rate, but if I'm only in that situation once and I fail that 90% doesn't mean crap). If I just make the NQ, I should be able to at least break even.


NQ was selling for 500k, and HQ was selling for 1M. If reclaim fails I lose 200k in materials and 300k in profit (500K) i would have gotten if I just made the NQ. If reclaim works and I spent 200k on matrials, to make HQ 800k profit. I'm not willing to risk 500k in losses to earn 800k in profits. I am willing to spend 200k in materials with 100% chance of NQ (and some chance at HQ), when I'm reasonably confident NQ will earn at least 200k... and if I'm lucky I'll get HQ, or be able to sell NQ at a nice profit, or just try again. I'm even more comfortable with the market board risk if it's a slot where my best gear is ilv 80 ;)

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

No, Reclaim is 90%.
Thing is, an NQ is roughly I85-87 in terms of stats... Why spend more tomes on an I87 when you can just buy an I90 for less?

For most practical purposes, an NQ, unless its food or a component, is kinda worthless. So Reclaim is there to give you a 9/10 shot at doing it again. And hope your luck is better.

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Currently NQ i90 still sales higher than the mats cost on my server. Jesus someone bought a NQ tank body for 1.5mio yesterday when the other crafter under cut my HQ one to 800k today. lol

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Originally Posted by Simaril

snip

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let's say NQ sell for 500k and HQ for 1mio. suppose ur avg HQ rate is 90% and you will finish the next NQ item if u reclaim once.
If you don't reclaim ur expected income is 500k*100% = 500k
If you reclaim ur expected income is 10%*0 + 90%*90*1mio + 90%*10*500k = 855k
unless u r short in funding (in this case it will make sense cuz u need to get gil back to buy more mats to make more products, the opportunity cost will cover the diff above), otherwise u made a bad decision from a pure economic point of view. You are paying 855k-500k = 355k on avg for that risk margin which is crazy.

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Originally Posted by ImDingDing

You are paying 855k-500k = 355k on avg for that risk margin which is crazy.

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355k is worth it to prevent any chance of total loss.

I was literally down to 14gil on saturday (with a shiny new set of perfectly melded alc gear and alembic on sunday), and 40 items listed on market board (a few 3 stars). When I see opportunities I'm willing to spend everything I have if I can eliminate potential loss.

Thing is, in the same way most players can't do top end raids, most also can't do top end crafts. Some prefer crafting, or love it, where as others 50 all war classes and get relics n zeniths etc.
these weren't made for casual crafters the same as t5 onwards went made for casual war players.

I personally love crafting, I have all 8 classes materia capped in everything since before 2.1 (359 craft 364 ctr with new head peice) all 8 books, 2 new tools so far (been busy so not got more) but I can reach the caps for 3star without the new tool, should I need to. So far sold 2 3stars hq. I'm the only one on my world who can do them too.

What SE did with crafting was a good thing, those who don't agree, your not a true crafter, those who are will be the sane ones who were pissed that 2star was so Dam easy

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Originally Posted by M60-Maniac

Thing is, in the same way most players can't do top end raids, most also can't do top end crafts. Some prefer crafting, or love it, where as others 50 all war classes and get relics n zeniths etc.
these weren't made for casual crafters the same as t5 onwards went made for casual war players.

What SE did with crafting was a good thing, those who don't agree, your not a true crafter, those who are will be the sane ones who were pissed that 2star was so Dam easy

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Exactly how I feel. Crafting right now means you have to focus on it and play it like a main. It isn't meant so you max everything instantly and be able to craft everything with ease.

I love that the crafting is not 100% cuz it separates the pro crafters from the shitty one that rely on macros to craft.

Exactly, don't get me wrong I use macros for everything up to 2star (I do have a 2star macro but rare I use it) but I make my own. Well done SE, well done