Lancers are... ?

I've always loved this class since the first time I played it, I thought it was a decent DD but also an awsome buffer/debuffer and with the whole cross class "feel free to do whatever you want" thing it would have been an amazing class with lots of totally different builds, for exemple I would have loved to try a Lancer/Thaumaturge build.

Clearely I failed ^^' as all of the high ranked lancers know we are nothing more then a normal DD. At the current state of the game you could try to assemble a different build, but I really doubt someone would ever want you in party ;) (also I really doubt you would be helpful at all, but I might be wrong)

So when each class will have its designed role what do you think we're gonna be? DD? Buffer/Debuffer? Something in betwen that can be switched anytime and still be effective both ways?

Based on our skills and skills from other jobs that go so well with ours I'm gonna say something in between. I like to see us as sort of the "jack of all trades" type of job that can swap roles as needed or stay set on one role depending on how many other lancers are on the field and how they are built. Some may be more assigned to a heavy damage role on the main fight. Ones like myself are assigned to a more rear guard type position. To control the presence of additional monsters on the field, locking them down till the sentinel is able to control them so the casters dont snag agro. Givin all we can do the job is extremely versatile and I belive strongly that's the direction we are going to continue as.

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Originally Posted by Aylis

Based on our skills and skills from other jobs that go so well with ours I'm gonna say something in between. I like to see us as sort of the "jack of all trades" type of job that can swap roles as needed or stay set on one role depending on how many other lancers are on the field and how they are built. Some may be more assigned to a heavy damage role on the main fight. Ones like myself are assigned to a more rear guard type position. To control the presence of additional monsters on the field, locking them down till the sentinel is able to control them so the casters dont snag agro. Givin all we can do the job is extremely versatile and I belive strongly that's the direction we are going to continue as.

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I started spazzing out when I saw your post. Looks like you play Lancer just like I do. It is exactly what I though they were supposed to be when I first saw the description on the FFXIV website a long time ago. I love knowing that I'm responsible for any stray monsters that may come up and try to eat a mage. The versatility is really nice, I like doing a job that keeps me on my toes.

Our higher MP pools and decent bulk afford us those options alongside a more "support fighter" aspect that THF and DNC had glimpses of in FFXI. In fact, weapon choice aside, I find Lancer the closest thing that matches up with a Dark Knight, at least in the sense of 2/3 melee+ 1/3 magic. Alternately, we're Samurai with spears.

But we don't fit exactly into any of those either, so we are what we are: Lancers :P
I agree with a "rear guard" role.

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Originally Posted by Lahru_Hukurou

I started spazzing out when I saw your post. Looks like you play Lancer just like I do. It is exactly what I though they were supposed to be when I first saw the description on the FFXIV website a long time ago. I love knowing that I'm responsible for any stray monsters that may come up and try to eat a mage. The versatility is really nice, I like doing a job that keeps me on my toes.

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Wierd in NM fights i do straight up dmg. 800+ dmg with doomspike II on BRs.

Yeah if anything Archers pick up the stray mobs not having to move due to range and the their speed of removing said add and the TP needed to do over 1k BR dmg.

Lncr is probably best as Lancer/Samurai Gain tons of TP and decent WS's but currently there's nothing to set them apart. Just another job to break horns and a couple useful buffs/debuffs.

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Originally Posted by God

Yeah if anything Archers pick up the stray mobs not having to move due to range and the their speed of removing said add and the TP needed to do over 1k BR dmg.

Lncr is probably best as Lancer/Samurai Gain tons of TP and decent WS's but currently there's nothing to set them apart. Just another job to break horns and a couple useful buffs/debuffs.

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Agree, Archers are definitely the best class to manage adds.
We are amazing in TP management (ours and mob's TP), but we have nothing special to use them for... our WS do decent damage, but nothing special, we can incapacitate a few things, but nothing compared to archers, we can set a couple of buff/debuff, but they have a horrible miss rate so it's not even worth to try :/ right now I feel like we are somewhere in between and we don't excel in anything... Plus no party will want us for the buff/debuff thing.

Personally I think SE should emphasize Lancer's job into 2 roles, DD and Buffer, wich can be switched via point allotment and cross class abilities, making both roles valuable when a build is set, instead of keeping us always something in between.

I honestly haven't been in a party where the Archer ever took care of adds. The ones that I have been in parties with always just focus on the one mob. I know not all Archers do that, but that has just been my experiences.

Nothing I hate more then targeting the marked leve mob only to have its HP drop to 20% before I engage. As an Archer i'm usually soloing the other red leve mob while everyone readjusts to the second target. lol.

Only other time is Toads and Bulls in Dedore camp and Efts on Goblin NM camp. usually though TBH the mages deal with adds for Shipon MP.

I dunno about you folks but I love my Lancer, we are like the second highest DD in game with archer being top DD. On top of that we have pretty good defense with being able to wear plate armor effectively, and certain skills like Distraction.

Then we also have a prety decent amount of CC skills, which right now are not the most useful but will be when they add PvP. We have second furthest Range of DoW. Then we have stamina management and TP management skills for ourselves, party members, and mobs. We can also provide ourselves with continuous healing (life surge) that really isn't that bad at all. We can also AoE effectively without having to worry about instantly dieing upon pulling agro. Then we have Collusion which we can use to assist tanks on building hate or help to swap hate over to another.

I dunno I would say we are a pretty diverse class that brings a lot to a party. The only thing I wish we had was Jump.

PS: we f'n look awesome!

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Originally Posted by Shampooo

Wierd in NM fights i do straight up dmg. 800+ dmg with doomspike II on BRs.

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Same here. We generate TP for the party and hold off TP on mobs and also explode in Br's.

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Originally Posted by Aurora

Same here. We generate TP for the party and hold off TP on mobs and also explode in Br's.

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Why would you choose Doomspike II when the main goal in NM fights is incapacitating and not killing the NM as fast as possible? o.O

It's useful with the adds, but on the NM itself I find much more useful Twisting Vice and Moonrise II that are dealing less dmg but are incapacitating the target and lowering his TP.

Archers can deal 800 dmg with incapacitating skills, wich is much better. So the point is we are usefull but we also can be easily replaced, while fighting Haughtbelly or Dodore without any archer is definitely a hard task :/

If only Comrade in Arms II would work well the sitution would be so much better :/ And I would love to see more skills like that.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

PS: we f'n look awesome!

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so true ù.ù

i dunno, but my doomspike II did 865 to ureasus, more than any archer in my group and more than shadowsear from thms in my group

^In BR I hope? I've done 280-300's per hit with quick nock on Uraeus with BR's+Buffs and +2 Crab bow without the maximum str. I haven't tried Chaos Thrust since I got it but wouldn't be surprised if it's a dissapointement. THM's are going nuts on solo'ing nm's or doing it with small groups so it made me lose interest.

edited: Misread some things. Anyway, using skills to first incapacitate then going full DPS once everything has been broken is how it should be. We just never bother with Uraeus.

If I said Lancers are whores for hire, would anyone agree with I?

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Originally Posted by Alcide

Why would you choose Doomspike II when the main goal in NM fights is incapacitating and not killing the NM as fast as possible? o.O

It's useful with the adds, but on the NM itself I find much more useful Twisting Vice and Moonrise II that are dealing less dmg but are incapacitating the target and lowering his TP.

Archers can deal 800 dmg with incapacitating skills, wich is much better. So the point is we are usefull but we also can be easily replaced, while fighting Haughtbelly or Dodore without any archer is definitely a hard task :/

If only Comrade in Arms II would work well the sitution would be so much better :/ And I would love to see more skills like that.




so true ù.ù

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what u gonna incapacitate in ureaus, also, doesnt take a whole fight to incapacitate a body part. we want to kill things ASAP so that we can kill the NM multiple times in a cycle. ie: dodore 3x per dark, ureaus 3x per night etc etc... theyre so easy theres no need to put moonrise debuff on the NM or have to use twisting vice (unless your trying to incapacitate a part)

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Originally Posted by Shampooo

i dunno, but my doomspike II did 865 to ureasus, more than any archer in my group and more than shadowsear from thms in my group

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-_-;

A poorly geared Arch can easily beat that damage. Sure not with Foeseeker or a non effect bloodletter but even a barrage will do more that's not without busting out quicknock.

Incapacitate is ideal although even that takes no time at all :(

Hears hoping the lncr 50 WS is super awesome later on and I guess thankful you don't have to evade like SimianThrash.

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Originally Posted by tsuki

^In BR I hope? I've done 280-300's per hit with quick nock on Uraeus with BR's+Buffs and +2 Crab bow without the maximum str. I haven't tried Chaos Thrust since I got it but wouldn't be surprised if it's a dissapointement. THM's are going nuts on solo'ing nm's or doing it with small groups so it made me lose interest.

edited: Misread some things. Anyway, using skills to first incapacitate then going full DPS once everything has been broken is how it should be. We just never bother with Uraeus.

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Isnt Chaos thrust basically like multishot but x6 basically it will hit 1 mob 6 times or 2 mobs 3 times each etc.

Lancer in my viewpoint is used as a heavy DD such as a cross with dark knight in the strength sense and samurai in the TP burn. When I am fighting nms I like to use a full STR build with 170+ and the rest is accuracy. I find myself doing as much damage as an archer with buffs (ferocity/raging strike/keen flurry or hawks eye). If I get my WS in the right spot of the BR I can do an easy 900+ dmg doomspike II on great buffalo or ueraus. When fighting the group nms I like to equip a lot of low tp/AoE moves to spam and throw in buffs every now and then. I find it taking down the off mobs a lot quicker than having a group on each off mob at a time.

As of my soloing, I keep it standard with strickly lancer ws's and abilities to buff dmg and drain hp, and ofcourse the standard conj spells for protect/shell/spikes. One more thing I forgot to mention was that it seems to be better when sticking with speed surge for nms and party and life surge for solo since it drains HP on ws's making it next to never needing to cast cure.

Some of the traits I have found incredibly useful for this job are the 10% healing bonus you get from pugilist, out of sight from archer which lowers enmity for those of you who do not know, and the movement speed + for active mode just incase your healers can't reach you in time for a cure while fighting nms or party mobs in threat of getting AoE'd on low health.

Copypaste from my LNC guide for the hell of it:

WHO?
You are a Lancer (LNC). You are unique in that you are a "mid range" attacker, with a longer reach on your attacks than any other Disciple of War except Archer. You are also unique in that you carry multiple job-specific abilities, such as SPEED SURGE, TWISTING VICE, and FLEET OF FOOT.

WHAT?
You serve to employ damaging piercing-type damage from close-to-mid range as well as control enemy TP with abilities such as MOONRISE and TWISTING VICE. You are also capable of dealing damage to a group of enemies with abilities such as PIERCE and LEG SWEEP,as well as supporting your party with bonuses from Surge-type abilities such as HP drain and Evasion Down. You are also a powerful soloer, being able to constantly heal yourself with HP drain, and in LIFE SURGE's case, HP drain via weaponskills.

WHERE?
On the front lines, you serve as an integral and invaluable force in damage and support. Being able to help heal your tank and other combatants is always appreciated, and for those tough NMs, you are able to regulate and mitigate enemy TP in order to bring sucess to your endeavors.

WHEN?
Lancer is valid in almost any party formation, thanks to it's varied offensive and support abilities, as well as in-battle mobility from FLEET OF FOOT. Even fighting extremely evasive enemies is little trouble when you have TP regeneration via INVIGORATE and a guaranteed hit from FEINT if you are to miss a prior attack.

WHY?
The defining features of Lancer set it apart from other damage dealers. You are a toolbox full of unique and helpful devices. HP drain, evasion debuffs, multi-targetting melee attacks with PIERCE, and many others. You might not pull the raw numbers that Archer does, but your utility and longevity is outstanding. You are a true credit to the team in NM battles in that you can keep a constant flow of HP coming to your fellow front-liners as well as help delay those hard-hitting enemy TP moves. Welcome to the fold, friend.

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Originally Posted by Snipplwits

When I am fighting nms I like to use a full STR build with 170+ and the rest is accuracy. I find myself doing as much damage as an archer with buffs (ferocity/raging strike/keen flurry or hawks eye). If I get my WS in the right spot of the BR I can do an easy 900+ dmg doomspike II on great buffalo or ueraus.

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I hate to tell you, you are not out damaging an archer. I have all the same buffs you just mentioned and even a poorly geared Archer will still break 1k in the situation you described.

Maybe when they nerf archer lancer will be neck and neck in dmg.

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Originally Posted by Snipplwits

When fighting the group nms I like to equip a lot of low tp/AoE moves to spam and throw in buffs every now and then. I find it taking down the off mobs a lot quicker than having a group on each off mob at a time.

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Same thing here; hello WideVolly II for 350-500 dmg across multiple mobs . It's faster for an archer to get rid of adds than a lancer. Especially considering you have to move yourself between the groups of mobs where as archer just needs to switch targets range distance is usually enough. There's just way more burst damage output there to take down adds faster.

TBH any adds we ever get are taken by the mages using emulate so they can siphon mp or me for TP.

Yea that's one of the main reasons I'm bringing archer up but even though I may may not always out damage the archers in my ls (they using str with bucc set + tricorne) and me in same but with temp, I guess what I should have said is that I will occasionally out damage them by 50 more dmg or so if I can add in a blindside and get the extra crit bonus on the ws

LNC have the highest dmg'ing WS in game.
LNC control enemy TP/debuff.
LNC are the best DoW soloers.

if ARC doesnt exist.(spam multshot!!!!)
LNC are the fastest TP gainers.

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Originally Posted by God

I hate to tell you, you are not out damaging an archer. I have all the same buffs you just mentioned and even a poorly geared Archer will still break 1k in the situation you described.

Maybe when they nerf archer lancer will be neck and neck in dmg.



Same thing here; hello WideVolly II for 350-500 dmg across multiple mobs . It's faster for an archer to get rid of adds than a lancer. Especially considering you have to move yourself between the groups of mobs where as archer just needs to switch targets range distance is usually enough. There's just way more burst damage output there to take down adds faster.

TBH any adds we ever get are taken by the mages using emulate so they can siphon mp or me for TP.

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ARC is stil best at extra adds like Hogs during dodore due to their burst dmg and longer range.

During Dodore, we usually have ARC and LNC in pt, ARC are lucky because Wide Volley II only cost 1000tp, but LNC arnt far behind, they can do 700-900 to each of Dodore's Minions (up to 4, 5 possible but hard to adjust) with Doom Spike II @ 3000tp. I personally did 725, 775, 790 and 820, and currently hold the highest DMG on Dodore, @ Doomspike II 1378, 2nd best is ARC at 1238 in our shell (Legacy - Bodhum).

For lancers, is best to have other side jobs that give good debuff with WS, such as Pugilist's Victimize, Gladiator's Luminous Spire, Archer's Bloodletter (for DOTs).

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Originally Posted by Synapse

currently hold the highest DMG on Dodore, @ Doomspike II 1378, 2nd best is ARC at 1238 in our shell (Legacy - Bodhum).

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15-20second fight right?

I've already popped 1.5k on him several times and that's not even the highest of our LNCs, much less ARCs.

In terms of raw damage, ARC > LNC, and that's absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. We're not that far behind, plus we bring quite a bit more to the table than raw damage. 1 LNC can make an enormous difference if they put even a pinch of effort into it. Damage may be our first priority, but maximizing the damage of our melee brethren is a close 2nd.

If everyone continues to QQ and argue about it, we'll just have lolDRGv2.0.

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Originally Posted by Airlea

15-20second fight right?

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what do you mean by 15-20 sec fight!? Dodore!?? awesome.
Also if possible could you take a screenshot of one of those several(assuming you can do it often) 1500dmg on him + your stats/attributes, i'm really interested in comparing, thx!(serious request).

*edit* If your trying to bring other threads(Life Surge vs Speed Surge: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...vs-Speed/page3) into this - rather you not -, i feel /sigh because i'm pretty sure that discussion was mainly focused on RANK20-RANK39(Life Surge vs Speed Surge(1)) and everything said on it was from the view within those rank range. Unless you guys do NM at rank 40, then, great!

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Originally Posted by Synapse

Also if possible could you take a screenshot of one of those several(assuming you can do it often) 1500dmg on him + your stats/attributes, i'm really interested in comparing, thx!(serious request).

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No problem^^ The base stats you can check on here anytime of course. iirc, with gear my STR is 158, DEX 130, but I'll double check tomorrow. for Dod I use Banneret+1 atm. Still gathering HQ mats for Champ. Had a hell of a time getting the head to drop.

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Originally Posted by Synapse

*edit* If your trying to bring other threads into this - rather you not -, i feel /sigh because i'm pretty sure that discussion was mainly focused on RANK20-RANK39(Life Surge vs Speed Surge(1)) and everything said on it was from the view within those rank range. Unless you guys do NM at rank 40, then, great!

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No. That was life vs speed in general. Go reread the OP and subsequent posts. I had to poke you with that since you said there weren't any fights in XIV that last longer than 15-20seconds. ;)

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Originally Posted by Airlea

No. That was life vs speed in general. Go reread the OP and subsequent posts. I had to poke you with that since you said there weren't any fights in XIV that last longer than 15-20seconds. ;)

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The discussion started when i said:

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Originally Posted by Synapse

10 > 20 Speed Surge, 20 > 40 Life Surge, 40+ Speed Surge II

Speed Surge I isnt really noticible, so i would stick with Life Surge untill 40. If there is more than 1 LNC in party, find if he is using Life Surge, if so u can use Speed Surge I.

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than it lead to:

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Originally Posted by Airlea

I...I'm not even sure what you're implying in the above post.

I meant that your post about speed surge not being "really noticeable," and suggesting using life surge rather than speed surge for 20 ranks is ridiculous. Particularly coming from a r50 LNC. That was just the most polite way I knew how to express it.

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The OP was maybe a discussion between Life Surge vs Speed Surge, but our discussion was between Speed Surge I vs Life Surge, i never said anything bad about Speed Surge II because that is a really noticible stamina boost nor did i say to use Life Surge from 20-39:

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Originally Posted by Synapse

I meant the use of Life Surge in party play(solo, it varies with mob difficulty), i rather have a noticable evasion down on mob and have the party kill it faster than gain a very small boost to my stamina bar.

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Use of either Life Surge or Speed Surge depends on the mob as well as current pt set up. Im still sticking by the fact Speed Surge 1 is not better than Life Surge from 20-39 nor im saying use of Life surge is must, again it varies with pt play and mob.

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Originally Posted by Synapse

it varies with pt play and mob.

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Originally Posted by Airlea

tl;dr - Don't be a lazy LNC. Use both.

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I agree. ^5