New Job: Pugilist Tank

Simply add a new job to pugilist available at level thirty that fulfills the tank role. Tank would be focused around evasion for survival more than defence or HPs. This adds a tank role to every current monk.

And you are going to get your position bonuses how?

THen give him a kunai + a utsusemi skill and you have...

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Originally Posted by Messenger

THen give him a kunai + a utsusemi skill and you have...

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No reason to bring a PLD tank.

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Originally Posted by Maku

And you are going to get your position bonuses how?

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Just remove the positional requirements and fold them into the normal attacks (or change the positional requirement to "front" so that you can only get the benefit while being in front of the target, which means tanking).

PGL is actually fertile ground for a tank job. You can coopt Greased Lightning to provide +eva instead of +dam while in the tank stance, which acts as both the damage reduction and the increased survivability; for enmity mods on the attacks, you can simply have raptor and coeurl forms increase enmity by x3 and x5, respectively, while those forms are active (another option would be to simply add high enmity mods to certain raptor and coeurl form requirement attacks if you don't want to have the problem PLD has with only being able to use high enmity combos); there's already a pretty decent native CD suite (Second Wind, Mantra, Featherfoot) that just needs a bit more (Conv from GLA, Foresight from MRD; just leaves 2 more from job), and there's Fists of Earth as well. You'd simply need to add a tank stance (30% +hp to provide slightly more eHP thanks to reliance upon RNG mitigation and 80% increase to def and mdef to make PGL armor equivalent to WAR/PLD armor; you could have it tweak Fists of Earth to have these attributes instead), a couple CDs, and probably some type of controllable effect similar to IB that increases max HP for those times when you need to deal with big spikes.

With the current design philosophy of ARR, a evasion based tank would break the game. Let's use the ever present twintania and extreme modes for examples. Firstly, we need to come to a understanding about evasion tank survivability. That is, for any semblance of balance, it's primary mitigation comes through evasion; meaning that it can't really take a hard hit. A obvious, but needed statement.

Now, for extreme modes, or turn 2 of coil. I cite stacking debuffs. The ability to completely mitigate these raid mechanics through dodging, would completely void PLD and WAR in these encounter. In the case of twintania, the ability to evade Death Sentence would once again, break the encounter to the evasion tanks favor.

Well, how do you fix such an obvious overpowered job? Well, for that to happen and not break the mechanics, would mean that DS or incinerate, or MB, or whatever would have to ALWAYS hit. meaning the evasion tanks primary means of mitigation is now void. Remember how evasion tanks can't really take strong hits, like death sentence? It would be underpowered in this case, if not completely unviable. This is only taking into account certain factors as well, for example, what about aoe damage? Now, I'm not saying a evasion tank isn't possible, but would require something really complex, such as tiered levels of evasion, you can't simply evade an attack but you can evade most of an attack. Which would be similar to a PLD, only with a better shield and fewer cooldowns. Of course, that's just a simple muse on my behalf and the actual viability of such a system is suspect.

Point is, I extremely doubt an evasion tank is ever going to happen, and if it does, it'll be nothing like what most people will expect or want.

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Originally Posted by Alwryn

With the current design philosophy of ARR, a evasion based tank would break the game. Let's use the ever present twintania and extreme modes for examples. Firstly, we need to come to a understanding about evasion tank survivability. That is, for any semblance of balance, it's primary mitigation comes through evasion; meaning that it can't really take a hard hit. A obvious, but needed statement.

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You're remarkably uninformed about tank design. There are 2 aspects of a tank that have to be balanced: eHP (the amount of premitigation damage that a tank can take in a single blow discounting any and all RNG effects) and mean mitigation (the effective increase in healing received based upon your mitigation effects as derived from reduction in damage taken over time). Certain mitigation mechanisms will bolster one while ignoring the other (+hp increases eHP but does nothing for mean mitigation; evasion and +healing increase mean mitigation while doing nothing for eHP) while others bolster both (damage reduction reduces damage over time and, because it's always there, increases eHP as well).

If you're not completely ignorant of the dichotomy of tank mechanisms, it's actually easy to design an evasion tank. Hell, I actually outlined exactly what you'd need to do in my previous post: you give it +hp (to provide equivalent eHP) to make up for the fact that the evasion does nothing for it. You get the similar eHP as the other tanks (slightly higher to make up for the spikier damage profile) as well as similar mean mitigation, which means that it's balanced against the other tanks, no problem whatsoever.

If you want to talk about truly borked tank designs that require all kinds of complex math and design to balance them out, try looking into blink tanking, like NIN in FFXI; blink effects create *all* kinds of problems because they're controlled 100% mitigation mechanisms (which means that they're either monumentally abusable if they can apply to anything and incredibly weak if big attacks go right through them) that are charge based (which means that their performance is *highly* dependent upon the number of incoming attacks per second, which causes wild vacillations in performance based upon the number of attackers and their attack speed).

The only time tanks get borked is when the designer is ignorant of the actual mechanics and balance constructs involved (like conflating eHP with mean mitigation or assuming that there is only a single metric with which to measure tank survivability). If you actually know what you're doing, it's pretty simple as long as you understand the mechanics you're electing to deal with.

Here we go, an other "bring back the NIN we misused in FFXI please".

No thanks

Blink/evasion tanks would break things. A light-weight magic class tank that gets its defense from magic buffs and attacks would be easy to balance. I'd be happy to see all melee classes given the ability to tank or dps in Light party content - and all magic classes given the ability to heal or dps.

If they want to get lazy with encounter design, they could always tack on a glancing blows concept for special moves, so that you're still "evading," just not the whole hit. Ducking enough so that you take it on the arm instead of the face is a good idea even if it doesn't get you completely out of the way.

Leave auto-attacks all-or-nothing so there's still general spikiness and evasion. Then make special attacks glance a certain percentage at base. Maybe a random range, say 5-15%. Then let CDs increase that percentage. For example, Featherfoot on top of the tank stance would push your auto-attack evasion to 100%, and your special attack glancing percentage from 5-15% to 15-25% (or whatever). Other CDs can futz with the percentages in other ways and/or do something with self-healing.

Throw in a longish CD that guarantees special attacks miss, but leaves you flat-footed (no glancing, no dodging) for X seconds afterward as an answer to HG/Holmgang.

You think you know more then you do, I'll forgive your terrible attitude though. I also choose to omit any references to eHP, they're meaningless to most people and unrelated to my key argument of evasion tanks breaking mechanics. I will comment on this though.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

you give it +hp (to provide equivalent eHP) to make up for the fact that the evasion does nothing for it.

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An evasion tank that doesn't benefit from evasion?

You're just throwing out ideas that you'd think would work, not caring about how they would actually work in practice or their balance. You also still haven't commented on how an evasion tank will affect current mechanics like debuff stacking.

Edit: For a new tank to be balanced with the other tanks, their total eHP and mitigation potential have to be similar. That is not only on paper, but in practice. Remember 2.0 WAR was somewhat balanced on paper, but due to how it worked in practice it was inferior to PLD. Evasion as a mechanic would skyrocket a tanks ability to mitigate damage, therefore for any semblance of balance on paper, evasion tanks would need to be less beefy then other tanks.

Please try to think things out before you post and insult, it cheapens the community.

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Originally Posted by Alwryn

An evasion tank that doesn't benefit from evasion?

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No, I was saying that Evasion does nothing for eHP, not the tank itself. Evasion is a mean mitigation mechanism, not an eHP mechanism. As such, you give the class +hp to allow it to survive the burst effects that you think render them non-viable coinflip tanks. This is exactly what the devs did with WARs through Defiance: +healing is there for mean mitigation and +hp is there for eHP.

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You're just throwing out ideas that you'd think would work, not caring about how they would actually work in practice or their balance. You also still haven't commented on how an evasion tank will affect current mechanics like debuff stacking.

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No, I'm pointing out the exact ways that an evasion tank can be implemented because that's how they're implemented in a balanced manner. The whole question of debuff stacking is a nonissue because the very mechanics that apply the mechanic relevant debuff stacks are those that you cannot avoid with evasion. Evasion does not nor should it apply to all attacks which you seem to think that it should. It's the exact reason why you provide it with eHP so that it can survive the burst attacks that it cannot avoid with the evasion working to simply reduce healing requirements over time.

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Edit: For a new tank to be balanced with the other tanks, their total eHP and mitigation potential have to be similar. That is not only on paper, but in practice. Remember 2.0 WAR was somewhat balanced on paper, but due to how it worked in practice it was inferior to PLD. Evasion as a mechanic would skyrocket a tanks ability to mitigate damage, therefore for any semblance of balance on paper, evasion tanks would need to be less beefy then other tanks.

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First off, I was the one that told you about the separation of eHP and mean mitigation as balance concerns for tanks. Don't try and copycat to make it seem like you know what you're talking about.

Secondly, WAR was not balanced with PLD on paper. It was a well known fact that PLD was explicitly better at mitigation which is why WAR was not brought. Defiance was explicitly worse than Shield Oath, the WAR CD suite was a joke compared to PLD's, and Inner Beast was basically worthless in 8m content. Anyone that honestly thought that WAR and PLD were balanced for survivability in 2.0 was deluding themselves.

Third, Evasion does not skyrocket mitigation capability. A 25% chance to avoid damage provides the exact same mean mitigation benefits as a 33% increase to healing received or 25% reduction in damage taken. The only time that Evasion breaks the game is when you have someone who doesn't know the math assigning numbers. Your whole "omg debuffs" argument is completely irrelevant anyways because you're operating under a flawed understanding of the attack system of the game anyways.

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Please try to think things out before you post and insult, it cheapens the community.

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I do think things out which you apparently do not (nor do you have much in the way of reading comprehension). You operate under flawed assumptions with a equally flawed understanding of the concepts while parroting things that I've already said in order to make it look like you aren't. Try doing some math and research before you tell someone who *has* done the math and research (and actually gotten changes implemented in other games exclusively through providing devs with math) that they're wrong. It cheapens the community when someone like you starts spouting inaccuracies as if they were anything resembling the truth.

If you think I'm being rude, I'm not. I simply cannot abide idiocy and don't feel like making people that don't know what they're talking about feel like they were doing anything but.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

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We could go back and forth all day but I have neither the interest or energy to argue with you.


I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Alwryn

We could go back and forth all day but I have neither the interest or energy to argue with you.


I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

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You're new here, aren't you? : D

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

You're new here, aren't you? : D

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Haha, in a sense. I used to frequent the forums alot back when ARR first hit. Giving out tips where I could. Mountain buster will always come after a landslide, coil tips, etc etc. Just the little details that can make or break a encounter. As we all improved and cleared content I just felt like there really wasn't much to discuss anymore from a progression standpoint. So, I stopped using the forums, only coming back every once and again to share some opinions.

But, are you really saying that an internet forum can be irrational and overly confrontational?! Sir, I'm am shocked! Shocked!


Well, maybe not that shocked.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

No, I'm pointing out the exact ways that an evasion tank can be implemented because that's how they're implemented in a balanced manner. The whole question of debuff stacking is a nonissue because the very mechanics that apply the mechanic relevant debuff stacks are those that you cannot avoid with evasion. Evasion does not nor should it apply to all attacks which you seem to think that it should. It's the exact reason why you provide it with eHP so that it can survive the burst attacks that it cannot avoid with the evasion working to simply reduce healing requirements over time.

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So evasion shouldn't apply to certain attacks (the most damaging) so you are giving them enough HP to survive them. However, evasion does mitigate other attacks thus reducing the amount of healing they need over time.

When would you use either of the other two tanks if this is the situation? If an evasion tank can take less damage over time cause of evasion but has enough HP to withstand the unavoidable and most dangerous attacks, you would never use either of the other two tanks.

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Originally Posted by Maku

So evasion shouldn't apply to certain attacks (the most damaging) so you are giving them enough HP to survive them. However, evasion does mitigate other attacks thus reducing the amount of healing they need over time.

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First off, it's not that evasion *shouldn't* work against stuff like EX Mountain Buster and EX Incinerate; it's that it *doesn't* work on those attacks. The only reason that matters in the least, however, is because those attacks apply fight relevant debuffs. If they didn't apply fight relevant debuffs, it would be perfectly acceptable for evasion to work on them because it's not providing any benefit over the +healing that WAR gets or the DR that PLD gets (which, if you consider that HM MB can be evaded but EX MB cannot, it's pretty indicative that the devs actually kept that in mind).

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When would you use either of the other two tanks if this is the situation? If an evasion tank can take less damage over time cause of evasion but has enough HP to withstand the unavoidable and most dangerous attacks, you would never use either of the other two tanks.

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I never said that it would take less damage over time than the other tanks. 20% evasion is no better than 20% DR where mean mitigation is concerned. That's the entire point. Evasion is simply a mean mitigation mechanism. If you provide it in the equivalent quantity as the other tanks get +healing or DR, it provides no increased benefit.

+20% evasion and +25% hp provides the *exact same benefits* as 20% DR from Shield Oath. That's the entire point. Evasion tanks are only broken when you screw up that simple concept.

I really shouldn't do this, I said I wouldn't. Curse my lack of self control and boredom.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

+20% evasion and +25% hp provides the *exact same benefits* as 20% DR from Shield Oath. That's the entire point. Evasion tanks are only broken when you screw up that simple concept.

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This is both correct and incorrect. In terms of total mitigation over a long period of time, yes. They are equal.

However, think of bulwark. Bulwark is the worst PLD cooldown. Why? because its unreliable, it doesn't always work. I've used it for a death sentence, blocked neither the plummet, the death sentence, or the auto attack and died because of it. No one was prepared for Bulwark to fail so spectacularly. Does this happen often? No, it's happened twice in the months I've been doing twintania but it still happens and is still a major issue in the very core concept of an evasion tank.

Evasion isn't reliable since it isn't constant, if you have some bad luck and don't evade during a burst phase, bad things can happen. Of course this works both ways as well, sometimes you evade alot of attacks. Point is, unreliable mitigation is not what anyone wants when they're facing down foreseeable burst damage. Why would anyone put their hands completely into RNG when they can take steps to mitigate damage through their own actions. Unreliable mitigation is inferior to reliable mitigation in practice, even if on paper they should be equal.

But another huge problem is once again, is debuff attacks and death sentence. What if you can't evade them? Imagine a PLD facing down DS without shield oath. Because if 20% evasion is replacing 20% dmg reduction or 25% hp/healing and you can't evade a death sentence; you're basically a PLD without oath, or a WAR without defiance. One of your main mitigation mechanics is now worthless. How will an evasion tank be able to deal with these situations? If it's some form of damage mitigation cooldown ala inner beast or rampart, whats the point? All you have now is another clone of the current tanks with different flavour text, but is also more liable to burst damage. Completely breaking encounters by being able to dodge fight relevant mechanics isn't viable, its broken by its very nature.

Listen, I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. Total mitigation over a fight doesn't matter. What matters is mitigation when you need it, relevant mitigation. Death sentence, Wicked Wheel, Mountain buster, Incinerate Spam; you want mitigation for them. Who wants a ton of mitigation when the healers would be able to keep you up easily with their most mp efficient heals without said mitigation; it's a waste.

I still say we will probably never see a evasion tank. SE will not break their own mechanics and SE will not create another tank job that plays no differently then the others. If we do see one, it'll be different from what most people expect an evasion attack to be, which is what I've been saying all along.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

+20% evasion and +25% hp provides the *exact same benefits* as 20% DR from Shield Oath. That's the entire point. Evasion tanks are only broken when you screw up that simple concept.

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If you only think in terms of a tank yes. But you need to take into consideration the healer. the HP plus of WAR and the DR on PLD are great but the require a good deal of healing even just from auto attacks because in things like t5 and ex primals the healers must keep the tanks at 100% at all times or risk an instant death from a series of instant moves. Because we have to keep them at 100% there is a lot of over healing involved. However, with an evasion tank sure when they do get hit they get hit harder but this will actually allow the healers to over heal much much less because the evasion tanks are actually using up all the HPs we are giving to them in the spell instead of only say half like the WAR or PLD do. We will have to cast less because of the evasion because an evasion is a 100% mitigation where the current tanks only have partial mitigation (looking at a single attack here). This opens up healers to DPS or take care of the other party members much more easily.

Even though your math looks good on paper (And I admit what you said makes perfect sense), simply put healers will have to cast fewer heals and those heals will be more effective due to less over healing on an evasion tank helping alleviate (<-did I use this correctly) enmity issues of WHMs and allowing both healers to potentially DPS more.

This is assuming that the evasion tank doesn't get defensive CDs like Foresight and stuff that up Defence because they are evasive and shouldn't be getting hit right? So they would get things like Featherfoot to up the evasion even further and potentially evade auto attacks in a consecutive row and thus help the healers even more.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

I simply cannot abide idiocy and don't feel like making people that don't know what they're talking about feel like they were doing anything but.

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There's some irony here in that he's exactly right and you're way out in left field on this.

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Originally Posted by Alwryn

Why would anyone put their hands completely into RNG when they can take steps to mitigate damage through their own actions. Unreliable mitigation is inferior to reliable mitigation in practice, even if on paper they should be equal.

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Which is why there is +hp.RNG based mitigation mechanisms are not a replacement for static mitigation mechanisms for spike damage situations. As I have said time and time again, Evasion doesn't isn't a factor when you considering the massive spike hits. It's explicitly because of the worst case stuff that you're discussing that any Evasion tank would need the ~25% +hp *because that gives them the exact same eHP as a WAR or PLD*.

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But another huge problem is once again, is debuff attacks and death sentence. What if you can't evade them? Imagine a PLD facing down DS without shield oath. Because if 20% evasion is replacing 20% dmg reduction or 25% hp/healing and you can't evade a death sentence; you're basically a PLD without oath, or a WAR without defiance.

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What you continually seem to be incapable of comprehending is that 20% evasion is *not* replacing 20% DR or 25% +hp/+healing. 25% +hp and 20% evasion are replacing them. Evasion is a mean mitigation stat. It does not affect a tank's eHP specifically because it can, and will, fail. You do not rely upon Evasion to keep you alive through something like a Death Sentence. You rely upon the 25% +hp that you would be getting *alongside* the evasion.

I have said this *over and over*. How do both of you keep missing this and act like Evasion would be the sole benefice given to this theoretical tank?

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Listen, I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times. Total mitigation over a fight doesn't matter.

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That's an ignorant viewpoint because, if you only care about eHP (which is what you keep bringing up), you're leaving out mean mitigation, which would be like giving WAR 25% +hp but no +healing: yes, they would be able to survive the same hits as a PLD, given the same starting hp, but it would take 25% more healing to keep them at that place.

You *have* to account for both eHP and mean mitigation when coming up with a tanking. On top of this, you have to realize that not all mechanics affect both, which I have said multiple times. Any tank getting a substantial amount of evasion is going to *have* to get something to bolster their eHP specfically because evasion doesn't do *anything* for eHP; it's a pure mean mitigation stat, and, honestly, it's not like the math is even remotely hard.

You keep saying bad points over and over as well, which get shot down with very specific reasons why it either would have to not work or be utterly broken. If your evasion tank evades more, it'll be broken. If it doesn't, it wouldn't be an evasion tank. Not quite sure how to put it more simply here.

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Originally Posted by Maku

If you only think in terms of a tank yes. But you need to take into consideration the healer. the HP plus of WAR and the DR on PLD are great but the require a good deal of healing even just from auto attacks because in things like t5 and ex primals the healers must keep the tanks at 100% at all times or risk an instant death from a series of instant moves. Because we have to keep them at 100% there is a lot of over healing involved. However, with an evasion tank sure when they do get hit they get hit harder but this will actually allow the healers to over heal much much less because the evasion tanks are actually using up all the HPs we are giving to them in the spell instead of only say half like the WAR or PLD do. We will have to cast less because of the evasion because an evasion is a 100% mitigation where the current tanks only have partial mitigation (looking at a single attack here). This opens up healers to DPS or take care of the other party members much more easily.

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I seriously have to wonder how much overhealing you're dumping into a tank to keep them alive during EX primals. I've healed all of the EX primals and I've *never* had a tank die to lack of healing nor have I ever ended up spending a majority of my time overhealing. If you're overhealing like that, you're doing it wrong.

As to the aspect of tanking that you are dancing around, it's called "spikiness" (or, more properly, the incoming damage profile). It refers to the pace in which damage is received and healing is required. Evasion tanks, because their form of "bonus" mitigation, have incredibly spiky incoming damage profiles. In fact, any reliance upon RNG based mitigation ends up increasing your spikiness, though higher chance/lower potency mitigation mechanisms have lower spikiness than lower chance/higher potency RNG mechanisms. It's exactly what PLDs have to consider when deciding between the Allagan Shield and the Onion Shield: the Onion Shield reduces you spikiness substantially, which is a significant benefit even if it provides less explicit mean mitigation over an extended period of time.

The problem with what you're saying here is that you're acting as if spikiness is a *benefit* because it decreases overhealing and/or allows for gaps between healing required. Yes, it does, but you neglected to realize that, when a tank with a spiky incoming damage profile needs healing, they need it *very quickly*. You have to pay a *helluva lot more attention* to a tank with a spiky incoming damage profile and, because of the rapid drops in hp that are possible, if you're busy throwing damage on enemies or heals on other targets, you're not going to be able to get back to the tank as quickly as you could/should be. It's the exact scenario that occurs when you have a WAR that gets hit with a Plummet>DS>Plummet: if you're doing *anything* but healing the tank when that happens, the tank is basically dead.

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This is assuming that the evasion tank doesn't get defensive CDs like Foresight and stuff that up Defence because they are evasive and shouldn't be getting hit right? So they would get things like Featherfoot to up the evasion even further and potentially evade auto attacks in a consecutive row and thus help the healers even more.

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Any tank that focused *entirely* upon RNG based mechanisms would be shooting itself in the foot. The key to effective tanking is diversity. Evasion tanks should not be thought of as tanks that rely entirely or even in a *majority* upon dodging attacks to survive. I've dealt with games tried to make it work but it never did (City of Heroes/Villains Super Reflexes). An "evasion" tank is best thought of as a tank that relies upon evasion more heavily than the other tanks but not to the exclusion of everything else. PLD is considered to be a damage reduction tank, but it doesn't have *only* damage reduction: it still has the baseline dodge (which is bolstered somewhat by Flash's Blind), and actually brings in an extra level of RNG with shield blocking.

A well design tank is diversified in the mechanics it draws upon. Since evasion are already creates a woefully spiky tank, the best set up is for one is to have their CDs to focus upon smoothing out their spikiness: DR, Defense increases, etc. It has less of an impact upon mean mitigation than you might think because evasion is already an all-or-nothing mechanic: if you dodge an attack, it wouldn't matter if you had 1000 def or 0 def. The only time the CD would actually benefit you would be if an attack actually punched through your evasion.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

There's some irony here in that he's exactly right and you're way out in left field on this.

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The irony is that you think it's ironic when it's nothing of the kind. The only way that their "points" make any kind of sense is if you misread everything I've been saying just like they have.

At this point you're just not listening. To anyone. Think what you want to think. Dream of an evasion tank that doesn't need to evade to tank, and isn't broken by either not needing to evade or evading while not evading. Enjoy it. Just stop posting about it.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

You keep saying bad points over and over as well, which get shot down with very specific reasons why it either would have to not work or be utterly broken. If your evasion tank evades more, it'll be broken. If it doesn't, it wouldn't be an evasion tank. Not quite sure how to put it more simply here.

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No, I keep making salient points that get misinterpreted by people that think they know what I'm talking about but don't actually because they didn't actually read what I had written well enough to understand it which makes people like you that read even *less* of a given post (and, at best, just skim it) *think* that a point has been made because you're not actually cognizant of the details. For every single one of the "reasons" posited by other people, I have explicitly shown why that reason is either not valid or already accounted for in everything I've been saying the entire time.

Though I don't agree with what you just said let me respond as if I did.

If the healer has to pay more attention then before then um, why would you use that style of tank then?

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Originally Posted by Kitru

No, I keep making salient points that get misinterpreted by people that think they know what I'm talking about but don't actually because they didn't actually read what I had written well enough to understand it which makes people like you that read even *less* of a given post (and, at best, just skim it) *think* that a point has been made because you're not actually cognizant of the details. For every single one of the "reasons" posited by other people, I have explicitly shown why that reason is either not valid or already accounted for in everything I've been saying the entire time.

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Well, you certainly love your walls of text. And thinking you're right no matter what anyone else thinks.

<drops in and looks around>

<gets really depressed>

SHISHI HOKODANNNN!!!!!

There you go. Emo Tank.

:)

That would be the DRK threads, where some are saying it should be a tank. ;)

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

At this point you're just not listening.

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Well isn't *this* just ironic.

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Dream of an evasion tank that doesn't need to evade to tank, and isn't broken by either not needing to evade or evading while not evading.

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I applaud you on your strawman description, because, you know, it's a poorly worded and badly described flawed interpretation of what I've been talking about.

An evasion tank *needs* to evade attacks, not as a question of short term survivability, but as a question of long term survivability because evasion does not contribute reliably to short term survivability.

Let me make it as simple as possible so that you don't misunderstand:

A PLD has a ~5% chance to be missed by an attack but reduces the damage dealt by any attack to them by 20%. An evasion tank would instead have a ~25% chance to be missed by an attack but take "full" damage from that attack. It's not that difficult to comprehend.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

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You can really tell you don't have much experience in actual endgame. Practical applications, balance, it would seem all you can really say is mean mitigation and eHP. You're also contradicting things you've said earlier are are now proposing a evasion tank that doesn't actually use evasion in any meaningful capacity, once of which you're willing to give anything and everything to make it viable against criticism.

Well, whatever. I should have left this alone, but to err is human. I've said my piece, shared my opinions, and had some fun along the way. I've said all i need to say about evasion tanks in 14 and it looks like we're continuing to disagree. That's fine, everyone's entitled to their own opinion after all.

Of course, all varnished in a smug sense of self satisfaction.

Just want to say, despite my unwillingless to play a Tank let alone a DoW, I'd like to see an evasion tank used. Its different and a lot of evasion based classes were typically squishy by main design. I think it be something worth seeing and would play a bit differently than what we have now so it could be worth a shot as much as adding a magic Tank that does the same thing as the current tanks but with spells instead of skills.

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Originally Posted by Maku

If the healer has to pay more attention then before then um, why would you use that style of tank then?

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Generally, the trade off would be slightly higher mean mitigation (you have to pay more attention but are rewarded in having to use fewer resources to keep them alive). When you're talking straight equivalences, like compared DR to the combination of hp and evasion, the math ignores stuff like spikiness because it's looking for the equivalence not the practical balance concern. As I see it, an evasion tank would probably get roughly 22.5-25% evasion along with 30% +hp, both of which exist to make up for the significantly spikier damage profile. Spikiness is a calculable attribute, but it's got be balanced using heuristics and intuition rather than straight math (the math gives you a guideline that has to be honed down to account for the abstract). It's done in the same way that Defiance is balanced: to be equal with Shield Oath, Defiance *should* have 25% +hp and 25% +healing, but it only has 20% because WAR brings in self healing which necessitates a reduction in their increased mean mitigation. The math behind it isn't absolutely solid, mainly because the value of self healing shifts greatly depending upon how much damage you're taking over a period of time, so it's tweaked to get to as close to balanced as possible.

Archer and pugilist are the two jobs I don't see leaving the damage dealer department, at best I think PUG will get a "support" DD maybe BLU or something, like ARC got BRD. Archer will get a straight DD job like RNG, like PUG got MNK.

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Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

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now don't get me wrong, It's not that I don't want to see an evasion tank; quite the opposite really. I was a tank in FFXI as well, which meant I used NIN when it was relevant to the encounter. I would love to see an evasion tank.

I just really don't see a way for one to exist in XIV's system.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Generally, ...

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That just reads as standing around more waiting to heal because you can't look away to DPS or heal other people because you have to be ready at a moments notice.

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Originally Posted by Alwryn

You can really tell you don't have much experience in actual endgame.

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I've been clearing everything for Twintania for months already, which my (new) static is currently working on. Unless you think that the *only* endgame is Twintania (and, even then, I've been up to Twisters), I'd have to say you're outright wrong.

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Practical applications, balance, it would seem all you can really say is mean mitigation and eHP.

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That's because those are the two numerical concerns that drive tank balance. Would you care to enlighten me what else exactly I should be discussing when talking about balance tank survivability?

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You're also contradicting things you've said earlier are are now proposing a evasion tank that doesn't actually use evasion in any meaningful capacity, once of which you're willing to give anything and everything to make it viable against criticism.

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No, I've been saying the same thing I've been saying the entire time. Go read my first post in this thread: I explicitly describe the tank as having 30% +hp and 22.5% +evasion. If you think that I'm somehow changing what I've been saying, it's because you don't actually know what I've been saying the entire time, which just proves my point.

Concerning you saying that my construct does not use "evasion in a meaningful capacity", 20% is *quite* meaningful, unless you honestly believe that neither Shield Oath, Defiance, Rampart, or Inner Beast are significant. The shield for a PLD does less than the 20% evasion I'm talking about. 20% means a crapton. Just because it's not getting 50% +evasion, or whatever amount you believe is required to make it an evasion tank, doesn't mean that it's not an evasion tank; everyone said that 2.0 WAR was a self healing tank even though a *tiny* portion of their total mitigation was actually drawn from it. The "type" of tank is determined by how it is different from the other tanks, and all that's required to make a tank using evasion significantly different from PLD or WAR is to give them ~20-25% +evasion.

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Originally Posted by Maku

That just reads as standing around more waiting to heal because you can't look away to DPS or heal other people because you have to be ready at a moments notice.

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Which is kind of the point. Spikiness is synonymous with predictability. If you can predict the amount of healing required less accurately with one tank than another, you're going to have to pay more attention to that less predictable tank. The "payout" for not being able to predict how much healing is going to be required over the short term is needing to heal less over the long term. It actually works out pretty well for balance purposes.

But it doesn't imagine that this spike damage happens on a big hit (mountain buster is a good example) and the tank goes down in 1 hit. Just because of a bad RNG the party is wiped, if this happens more than once the party disbands and everyone says, get a normal tank that doesn't have the ability to insta-wipe a party for no fault of its own. So nobody then uses the evasion tank because people don't like to waste time wiping due to dumb luck. Or it goes the other way and it consistently evades big hits thus making WAR and PLD useless because what is the point in mitigation if the other tank avoids it all together.