Why in god's green Earth do dungeons have a timer?

People complain about not being able to learn encounters, but my one gripe with this game is the timers on dungeons...why??

I don't get it.

because there is limited space on the duty servers and it needs to be shared by everyone

So you're saying it's a server design flaw?
Never had this problem in other games. FF is the only game that has timers on dungeons :(

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

So you're saying it's a server design flaw?
Never had this problem in other games. FF is the only game that has timers on dungeons :(

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Let's put it like this. During the game's early days Amdapor Keep was the top dungeon for farming tomes. Everybody wanted to cap their tomes ASAP and would flood instance servers causing wait times that were very terrible. If there was no timer you would have had people just sitting around in the instances doing nothing but trolling other people meaning NOBODY would be getting their tomes in a timely fashion.

Plus It's not hard at all to learn and wipe several times within the dungeon timer if you actually put the effort to learn it. The timers were much much shorter during Beta days. It took the entire hour for people to learn the instance, or about 30 minutes for people who're experienced.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

So you're saying it's a server design flaw?
Never had this problem in other games. FF is the only game that has timers on dungeons :(

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It's a reasonable design with a realistic view. I'll give you an analogy if there were no timers in dungeons:

People go to restaurants and eat or drink, whichever. But there was no time limit on the stay and all of the current customers don't want to leave the premises and keep doing what they are doing. Eventually, the restaurant won't be able to cater to new customers and eventually become scaringly crowded.

Same goes with game servers, there is a limit, there has to be an in-and-out queue.

EDIT: Also some of my greatest/fun/memorable moments are when the timer is creeping to end, the feeling of rush, urgency and exhilaration is what timers should give you. I can't picture a supposedly "dangerous" and "notorious" dungeon to be taken nonchalantly with tea breaks.

It's not a flaw...it's intentional. They did it to maximize the efficiency of their hardware. If they didn't put the timers in they'd have to account for a LOT more simultaneous server traffic which would mean more hardware to configure and maintain that most of the time wouldn't be utilized. Even without the timers most dungeon runs would take the same amount of time so with the exception perhaps of prime time, they'd be dealing with the same traffic they currently cap out at now but because there's no timers they'd see a HUGE spike during prime time so there'd be potentially 1 or more server shards that only get used during this time period and probably not even every day. That's a stupid and inefficient use of their hardware, memory, and network bandwith. The timer controls this.

It's like this so that people can't just camp out in an instance (whether to troll on purpose, or whether they just suck too badly to complete it) and prevent others from having their turn.

To be frank, the dungeon timers are so lenient that your group pretty much has to be majorly screwing the pooch if you find yourself running the entire clock on any of them.

90 - 120 minutes is more than enough time to do a dungeon. Don't even pay attention to the timer. It's not like dungeons are so well designed you have hours worth of exploring to do, 99% of the time they're a "long hallway" design that people seem to have hated in FFXIII but won't complain about in XIV :)

Theme park MMOs FTW!

No matter how people want to justify it, the fact of the matter is this shouldn't be necessary. This is simply not an issue any other MMO I've ever played has had, except WoW once or twice after big patches (I recall getting the "instance servers are full" message when trying to get into ToC when it finally dropped in Wrath - this was at the peak of WoW's subscriber numbers and when a heck of a lot of raiders were chomping at the bit for new content, critical mass). SE did something terribly wrong when working out how to organize their instance servers.

Someone told me once that SE has one server (or one section of a server) for each dungeon, while other MMOs tend to spread them out so that load is more evenly distributed. The latter seems more reasonable to me. What we have now just seems like poor planning.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

It's like this so that people can't just camp out in an instance (whether to troll on purpose, or whether they just suck too badly to complete it) and prevent others from having their turn.

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This really is not a thing that happens in other MMOs without a timer. SE needs to stop finding solutions to false problems.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

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P.S Most MMOs out there (especially Chinese and Korean ones) has timers on their dungeons or other instanced content because chances are they're a timed event based on achievement requirements and too suffer from "nothing but an elaborate hallway" design. What would removing the timer do..at all? You do realize there's literally nothing to the dungeons in FFXIV once the monsters are all gone...right?

It's not like FFXI where there could be actual puzzles or NM spawns or ability to Spawn NMs/Bosses throughout..right? Like how if you're going through Den of Ranchor (Dungeon) located under the Temple of Uggalepih (Tonberry dungeon) to reach Leviathan's Protocrystal (arena to fight avatars)..that would be a pain if you were timed...in XIV? It doesn't matter so much because you:

1. Clear Objective A-D
2. Slaughter Enemies
3. Kill boss
5. Get 5 minutes to collect loot.
6. Dungeon has zero purpose after 1-5.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

90 - 120 minutes is more than enough time to do a dungeon. Don't even pay attention to the timer. It's not like dungeons are so well designed you have hours worth of exploring to do, 99% of the time they're a "long hallway" design that people seem to have hated in FFXIII but won't complain about in XIV :)

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Then why's everyone in a big rush?

I want to start a topic but I'll settle for this thread [cannot post more than one thread day asked a question beginner forum my yesterday] - I'll deal with this vote to kick topic soon enough. My best friend just got kicked from an alliance just because she wanted to watch the cutscene. WHY IS EVERYONE IN SUCH A BIG FDONKEY HURRY?!? What happened to the polite peeps she met leveling up? Now she's 50 everyone is a big jerk. They run thru these dungeons, I've watched her play, like the devil's nippen their cheeks all the way. Do they really think this dungeon timer is going to run out before the goal?

I wish you all had played DDO (Dungeons & Dragons Online) and you'd know how an alliance is really done. You're suppose to look out for each other not bite, scream, and KICK.

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Originally Posted by JemC

Then why's everyone in a big rush?

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Because once you do the same dungeon to cap myth 40 times..you just want the agony to end lol. As for lower level dungeons, I have no idea why people would rush, you just lose out on exp and some treasure.

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Originally Posted by JemC

Then why's everyone in a big rush?

I want to start a topic but I'll settle for this thread [cannot post more than one thread day asked a question beginner forum my yesterday] - I'll deal with this vote to kick topic soon enough. My best friend just got kicked from an alliance just because she wanted to watch the cutscene. WHY IS EVERYONE IN SUCH A BIG FDONKEY HURRY?!? What happened to the polite peeps she met leveling up? Now she's 50 everyone is a big jerk. They run thru these dungeons, I've watched her play, like the devil's nippen their cheeks all the way. Do they really think this dungeon timer is going to run out before the goal?

I wish you all had played DDO (Dungeons & Dragons Online) and you'd know how an alliance is really done. You're suppose to look out for each other not bite, scream, and KICK.

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That is a completely different topic. Sadly those people that your friend met are just complete dickpistons, I feel sorry for him/her or any other player that has to deal with that over a simple cutscene. I'm just saying that those people are a minority.

I for one and a lot of my friends have never berated or teased anyone for watching cutscenes cause we know that they are a big part of immersion and gameplay. I'm afraid your friend just had bad luck in the notorious duty finder.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

P.S Most MMOs out there (especially Chinese and Korean ones) has timers on their dungeons or other instanced content because chances are they're a timed event based on achievement requirements and too suffer from "nothing but an elaborate hallway" design. What would removing the timer do..at all? You do realize there's literally nothing to the dungeons in FFXIV once the monsters are all gone...right?

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Well, as a roleplayer, I would really love to use a lot of the dungeon settings as locales for roleplay. The timers in 8 man content are annoying because they do nothing but force us out and back in every hour or so.

I've only played two eastern MMOs aside from this one - TERA and Aion. I don't recall if Aion had timers on their dungeons, but TERA certainly didn't. And that is really aside from the point. The timers in XIV have nothing to do with making a run more challenging or for achievements or anything. They are purely to minimize load on servers, and I strongly suspect this is because SE has organized their instance servers extremely poorly. This is not something you should be okay with! We should expect them to set up their MMO properly.

The instance population is one factor, but it's not the only reason.

The timers also used to add difficulty to the dungeons. Back in the early phases of Beta, Tam Tara Deepcroft was a much longer dungeon. About twice as long as it is today. And the Timer was only 60 minutes, not the 90 or 120 it is today.

This created a condition for failure, and honestly I loved it. Dungeons are NOT very difficult, not the trash, not the bosses. But having to fight your way through it and beat that final boss within a limited time frame? That made it challenging. Really good teams could clear it in 30 minutes, but I often finished it at very close to 60 minutes because my group either wasn't that good, or we tried to get a lot of side chests.

Think of Toto Rak. Ever noticed how long it is with a bunch of side rooms you can skip? Well, imagine what it was like in beta. In beta the chests in those side areas had some nice pink items in them... But going to get those chests took time. Do you try to get those side chests, or do you pass it up to save time?

The dungeon timer also meant that the group kept moving. People didn't get to join a dungeon then go AFK for 10 minutes.

This is something I feel this game really lost at launch. Back in beta, I honestly listed the dungeon timer as one of my favorite features of this game. I loved having a condition for failure in dungeons, rather than doing it the way other games do, and let players just try again and again until they give up.

Timers on instances are a problem? Since when?

I've been playing EQ forever, and every single instance that EQ has is timed. Ok, the timers are generally considerably longer (on the order of 6 hours for the most part) and the places/encounters are generally a lot more complex than what you see in FF14, but still, instances are timed. You log out inside an instance, and you either pop out at its entrance (if you zoned in naturally) or in the Plane of Knowledge (a safe zone) if you zoned in via a banner or fellowship campfire.

Now, there are a ton of dungeons in EQ that do not have timers, as well. They're called "static" as opposed to "instanced" dungeons. Anyone can wander in, it is not a private version of the place reserved only for you and your group. In FF14 terms, these would be places like those Sapsa Spawning Grounds or those mines in Outer La Noscea; they are part of the main world, not part of an instance.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Well, as a roleplayer, I would really love to use a lot of the dungeon settings as locales for roleplay. The timers in 8 man content are annoying because they do nothing but force us out and back in every hour or so.

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So your real issue is that dungeons are instanced.

Leave the timer alone, it never hurt you.

Let me put in another perspective, you're learning a new dungeon, now I'm not talking about YOU the elite awesome player who never messes up, I am talking about you the player who does dungeons with friends to learn it through and through and enjoy that. Now you hit a tough spot where a boss seems to be taking up some time and you can't quite figure out why...so you repeatedly attempt different things until BAM, something works, awesome! Now you've already been in the dungeon for 85 minutes, there's not enough time to finish it anymore and you have 2 bosses to go. Sad thing is you work tomorrow at 5am and while you love playing the game and would love to attempt the rest you just can't spare another 90 minutes to repeat the dungeon over.

That's my gripe, some people are learning, everyone learns at a different pace in different ways. I don't have the time to repeat a dungeon I enjoy playign with friends just because one or two of us couldn't quite figure it out. I like ot be in a dungeon and learn it and get as far as I can and let MYSELF be the timer, I'll decide when too much is enough.

It'd be nice if dungeons were open world and the instances were only related to the storyline so you had the option of choosing which one you'd like to visit at any time, but you know, modern themepark MMOs that have all gone F2P since then except for one or two.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

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It took you 85 minutes to clear trash and get to 1 boss, what makes you think you had time for the other 2 if you had to leave as is?

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Originally Posted by Naunet

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Or or we can give SE more time to let this game grow / get more players as i know for a fact most mmos come out with lots of probs ppl act like SE is Blizzard and that this game has been out as long as WOW

Is this really an issue for most people?

I mean the person that mentioned they liked to role play had a point, but what about everyone else? I've been playing this game for I guess six months now, and I can maybe think of two times that the timer inconvenienced me. Most of the times I do dungeons with duty finder, so basically, it could be with anyone.

Say the timer runs out in Crystal Tower or something, if and when that ever happened, I'd probably be happy. Gotta have a limit somewhere. Would you rather just bash your head against something for maybe four hours? Ninety minutes is a good limit.

Maybe I'm biased because I grew up with 8bit games like the normal NES system. I'm rather used to having to start over if I fail (or player 2 fails). Ninety minutes is really a lot of time. If you don't make it by then, you just have to start at the beginning. The few times it happened, I never sat around cursing my fate (and yes I queue as dps).

@Karnyboy: While I suppose it is technically possible that something like this would happen, I can't think of too many places where taking a very long time on the first boss wouldn't automatically mean that the next 2 are going to take even longer if you could complete them at all (never mind the time). In this scenario it should be relatively easy to pass the first boss a second or third time anyway because of the nature of this game's encounters so the time is barely lost.

This also sounds a lot like inventing a scenario where the timer is a problem rather than it actually being a problem. Having a timer solves overcrowding on the instance server to at least some degree without impeding anyone's progress in any significant way. Dungeons are not meant to take a very long time to complete and you can't go in underleveled (though you can go in the early ones wearing starter gear if you choose to) so there's no reason they should take a long time. The only time I timed out of a dungeon it was because we were repeatedly wiping and a few members (or possibly all of us) weren't playing well. I don't see how it's unreasonable for the game to limit the number of times you can attempt the last boss of a dungeon in succession. It's already very lenient on that front.

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Originally Posted by illuminapanic

It took you 85 minutes to clear trash and get to 1 boss, what makes you think you had time for the other 2 if you had to leave as is?

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I was totally giving you a scenario, not saying it was what happened, but every scenario can exist.

Honestly the way the overall community typical behavior is during duty finder parties, if your instance progress is that slow your party will probably disband before the timer goes below 30 minutes remaining

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

I was totally giving you a scenario, not saying it was what happened, but every scenario can exist.

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In my opinion, given that scenario, those people should work on their learning skills. I don't expect most people to be able to figure something out in one shot, but I do expect them to actually try to learn if that's what they say they are doing/want to do.

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Originally Posted by Mogi

Or or we can give SE more time to let this game grow / get more players as i know for a fact most mmos come out with lots of probs ppl act like SE is Blizzard and that this game has been out as long as WOW

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This is terrible advice. First, I can't think of ANY game that had to implement timers from launch. Second, Squee is a pretty damn big developer with a long history, so they should know how to make games properly. Thirdly, not complaining about stupid design choices is a good way to make sure your developer keeps perpetuating those stupid choices. Being nice is all well and good, but developers are here to make money, not to make games: if the customers become comfortable and do not make demands for improvement the developers will have no reason to improve.

Terrible advice.

I haven't read through everybody's responses - but I've gotta be honest: I always thought the reason there was a timer was to keep people from PUG-ing groups in DF and going AFK and making people wait for them to "have a cigarette" or whatever.

I just assumed it was to make sure that people who were registering and entering were committing to complete it in the allotted time.

/naive

Either way - I love that there is a timer. Unlike in some other games I've played in the past - I have rarely if ever had to wait on people who go AFK 10x in an instanced run in FFXIV. And also - when there are groups that are just not able to complete it due to inexperience it makes it a lot easier to at least be nice about it and say "Let's leave. Maybe next time." instead of feeling obligated to hang around until people can get the hang of it or give up without looking like a jerk.

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Originally Posted by Grembo

So your real issue is that dungeons are instanced.

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Uh.. what? No, that's not my problem at all. >_>

I have fond memories of clearing out dungeons and raids in WoW and using those as settings for really fantastic roleplay scenes. I'd love to do the same with XIV, but the timer makes that impossible.

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Originally Posted by Mogi

Or or we can give SE more time to let this game grow / get more players as i know for a fact most mmos come out with lots of probs ppl act like SE is Blizzard and that this game has been out as long as WOW

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I expect SE to learn from mistakes that others have already made. I would rather not have to go through the entire MMO development learning process all over again; there's no excuse for it. Other MMOs have solved instance crowding in far better ways - namely, spreading out the dungeons across multiple instance servers. Aurum Vale does not need the same amount of server resources as Amdapor Keep or the Coil turns.

Considering I've been in instances on DCUO where that particular instance has been opened for nearly 24 hours and they were still on the first or second boss due to bad party management and possibly trolling, I like the timer there. It gives a sense of urgency as well as makes it to where you don't have a lot of chances of popping into an instance that is already in session for the last 6+ hours with very little progress made.

but if I have 4-8 friends to group with then I don't believe I should be subjected to the timer...

You can still have bad party set up. People need to AFK. Many things to run a timer up and backlog a server, even with data stretched across other servers. I wouldn't want to be in any dungeon for more than 3 hours. Some are lengthy enough as is, allowing prolonged to indefinite play is horrible


There are three specific DCUO events that can last for over 24 hours because the party doesn't know what to do. Even with proper time to plan the party would fail time and again to pass those specific points. The most noteable one Inner Sanctum. You get locked at two points, one where you have to fight the Robot boss near the beginning. This is the part I've never gotten past myself on any team I was with. The other part of Inner Sanctum is the actual Brother Eye Fight which was the first time I've seen a Raid with over 24 hours in progress.

As for on FFXIV, I've personally failed 4 Duties due to bad party set up. It is indeed possible. First time I've ever timed out was in Stone of Vigil. We couldn't even get to the final boss. We kept losing at the point where you have the final boss shooting ice blasts at you while fighting off one of his mini boss dragons. I ran DPS and the healer could not dish out enough healing to keep everyone alive even with us using the cannons to keep the other dragon away. We all died to tornadoes. Second time I timed out was Aurum Veil. Couldn't get past the coin counter due to him not having a targeting display. I was the only new player running that dungeon. Tank and the Monk couldn't dodge the eye beam, and the Healer was always in Cleric stance. Third time was Demzem Darkhold. We got to the final boss and timed out.

The fourth time was close to timing out. Horrible party make up, our trouble was with a "Vet" Player that had never done the dungeon before. Were running Amdapor Keep, the healer kept dropping the purple pulsating orbs right on top of where we were fighting the boss. We did that fight 8 times before beating it with only 2 mins left. We were saved by a Bard and her Paladin friend. Everyone else that joined in quit because of the healer. We went through 3 tanks and 5 other DPS members. It took nearly the entire 90 mins to do. That was the slowest I've ever ran that dungeon. Horrible party make up is still an issue. Bad players can slow a team down and no matter how much planning you put into it, they will still ruin everything.

I don't know where the locking out from the dungeons completely comes it because I've ran the same dungeon side by side three other people, we were all in different parties. I called in two people to help me with a dungeon trouble a fellow in my FC was having. We thought we'd all end up in his dungeon since his entire party bailed, and all three of us ended up in the dungeon in three different parties. Not one of us were with my FC member. Multiple versions of the same dungeon don't block, but I still do not want to enter into an already started dungeon that has been running for over 3 to 4 hours. We're given more than enough time in all the dungeons to properly set out a plan and talk about changes to the plan should we fail. Ever good dungeon encounter I've had we've done this. We'd finish with more than 20 mins left every time. We have more than enough time to test out a fight, die, and change our strategy for that fight.

Its not detrimental to have the timer. I greatly prefer it the way it is. So does the friends that came over with me from DCUO because of all the headaches we've had with all the instanced fights we've had on there for Raids and Duties.

This is the only game I have come across with dungeon timers...I can't remember the last time I played an MMO that had one.

In the popular ones that were without a dungeon timer I honestly never saw a complaint about afk people in dungeons, etc.

Ildur is right, it's hard ot actualyl learn a dungeon to evaluate what went wrong with a ticking bomb waiting in your face reminding you that the luxury to do so is not there.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

Now you've already been in the dungeon for 85 minutes, there's not enough time to finish it anymore and you have 2 bosses to go. Sad thing is you work tomorrow at 5am and while you love playing the game and would love to attempt the rest you just can't spare another 90 minutes to repeat the dungeon over.

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There is a flaw in your thinking. 1) You learned the boss finally and thus it would not take 85min to get past him the next time you do the dungeon. 2) You can't spare another 90minutes to repeat the dungeon over (even though it will take you far less time to get past that boss this time) because you have to work at 5am. Well in your situation you still have trash mobs and 2 bosses. If it took 85 minutes to kill the first boss (the easiest one, arguably) then even if the dungeon didn't have a time you wouldn't have enough time to get through the dungeon because of your 5am work. It would stand to reason that you would take a long time on the other two bosses and end up having to give up half way anyway.

SO, since you are playing with friends (you mention if you have friends you play with you shouldn't have a timer) why not just call it quits and be like "Hey, we did good and killed that guy and can do it again. Let's leave and do this again tomorrow and get even further in the dungeon."?

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

90 - 120 minutes is more than enough time to do a dungeon. Don't even pay attention to the timer. It's not like dungeons are so well designed you have hours worth of exploring to do, 99% of the time they're a "long hallway" design that people seem to have hated in FFXIII but won't complain about in XIV :)

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Maybe because it have nothing to do with FF XIII?

This nice dungeon as example is from FF XII:
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...im_Passage.png

A very "long hallway"

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Originally Posted by Maku

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There is no flaw, because that was a hypothetical situation that could or could not exist. I am trying to stress that a dungeon timer is silly, it makes little sense since other games have flourished without them. I am not asking that a game mechanic be removed (because I understand it won't be), but the validity of it doesn't really seem to be a good debate point.

I don't know if you realize this or not but in said hypothetical situation, if it took 85 minutes to get to a boss then any additional time repeating the dungeon is still time lost and also taking steps backwards since you are doing the same thing to just get back to the last point where you were stuck. You see he point I am trying to make?

While I do agree that playing with your friends is nice because they can understand when it's time to call it quits it's "ok.", but that doesn't deter my point I am trying to make. I value your opinion, but to say that a situation is so easily fixed without knowing why a person is stuck on a boss in game and that it was the first one is rather presumptuous.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

I don't know if you realize this or not but in said hypothetical situation, if it took 85 minutes to get to a boss then any additional time repeating the dungeon is still time lost and also taking steps backwards since you are doing the same thing to just get back to the last point where you were stuck. You see he point I am trying to make?

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If a party need 85 minutes only to get to the first boss then they did something really wrong on the way. Doing the dungeon again from the start can help to go faster to the boss. Or the party should just go to the bed.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

There is no flaw, because that was a hypothetical situation that could or could not exist. I am trying to stress that a dungeon timer is silly, it makes little sense since other games have flourished without them. I am not asking that a game mechanic be removed (because I understand it won't be), but the validity of it doesn't really seem to be a good debate point.

I don't know if you realize this or not but in said hypothetical situation, if it took 85 minutes to get to a boss then any additional time repeating the dungeon is still time lost and also taking steps backwards since you are doing the same thing to just get back to the last point where you were stuck. You see he point I am trying to make?

While I do agree that playing with your friends is nice because they can understand when it's time to call it quits it's "ok.", but that doesn't deter my point I am trying to make. I value your opinion, but to say that a situation is so easily fixed without knowing why a person is stuck on a boss in game and that it was the first one is rather presumptuous.

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You asked why there was a dungeon timer and people gave you a reason. You then proceeded to argue why it isn't a good enough reason to have it. Just because it's not good enough for you doesn't stop the fact that there is a reasoning behind it and was explained. You then proceeded as to why it was a bad idea with a very bad hypothetical situation in which we pointed out to you.

I'm very sorry to say but you (any players stuck in this situation)would seem to be a horrible player if you took 85 minutes to only just get past the first boss in a dungeon. A majority of the bosses in these dungeons are pretty straight forward. Kill adds, dodge stuff, kill boss = win. The only boss that I can think of, where anyone would have trouble, is the Cyclops in Aurum Vale. The only reason is because he does not have any red indicators for people to follow from his attacks and you would have to pay attention to his casting bar.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

People complain about not being able to learn encounters, but my one gripe with this game is the timers on dungeons...why??

I don't get it.

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It's partially to do with server restrictions, partially to do with how the game is made. 1.x version was very reward oriented regarding speed runs, 2.x isn't so much, but even now you get extra rewards in the form of Gil or exp for 'swift completion' times. It stands to reason if there are rewards for finishing fast there should be a negative side to not finishing so fast (clear that trash again, you not fast enough).