Off Hand equipment for Classes and Jobs that don't use Shields

This is something that has slightly bugged me. I don't really like looking at an empty slot on my character window and believe that every game should have a way to fill every character's equipment slot.

So far, that slot is only usable with Shields which only work on three character classes and the DotL and DotH classes. Why not allow the ones that can't use shields to have special items that can be placed in the off hand slot?

Take Arcanist, Summoner, and Scholar first. They all use Book like weapons. What does every book need? A Bookmark! Magical books shouldn't be an exception. These book marks can give a small boost to INT/MND/PIE or give added bonuses similar to what the Shields do.

Even if Bookmarks are a little odd, the Summoners and Scholars are always seen using Quills to write in the books. Bookmarks can be defensive off hands for Scholars while Quills could be offensive ones for Summoners.

Since SE doesn't give special effects to their items outside of stat boosts, I feel kinda deflated with giving out some extra bonuses though a lot could really benefit with general bonuses like, getting Arrows for Archers which change the element of their damage to match that of the Arrow. Arrows would not be consumed, it would be treated as all arrows that the Archer now carries are the same element and the one Arrow in the off hand slot would represent all the arrows the Archer carries.

Bards could carry Harps that, if SE allowed it, increase the support abilities of their songs, otherwise, it would just increase their own abilities that they need to focus on.

Monks and Pugilists, this one is a bit harder, but Monks are typically seen with Prayer Beads. I can't say what I see a Pugilist with as I haven't done much with them, but I can see them having the Prayer beads as well.

Dragoons and Marauders, now this one is interesting as their weapons are two handed. What I see for these two, are more like accessories. Special Dragon Fangs for the Dragoon and Bone fragments/trophies for the Marauder/Warrior. I'll have to play Marauder to learn more about them to give a better idea.

Could add Focuses for Thaumaturge and Black Mages as their Staves usually have some kinda focus stone to cast their magic. Conjurer and White Mages I can see with Idols when they don't have shields.

The only one I can't think of anything for is the Gladiator and Paladin as they require Sword and Shield by class default. I can't see them replacing the Shield as the off hand for bonus off hand equipment.


Other than Class specific, you can have Special Primal versions as well for the current Primals, though they'd probably fit better as an accessory just to allow the Gladiator/Paladin to use them.

I had a few examples, but forgot to write them down so when I think of some more I'll add them.

Yeah, this has bugged me for a while. But in SE's defense that is A LOT of design time to put into making off hand equips for classes that really dont require such items. I mean, it would be cool and all and i would LOVE to see some more customization with how your weapon looks. Maybe in the future they will add it. but i dont see it being anytime soon (1 year+)

I know I'm mentioning a taboo subject on these forums, something from XI (GASP), but XI had grips that you could equip when you had two-handed items like Great Axes, Great Swords, Staves, ect, that had various effects/stats on them. Some where more clearly designed for mages, some for damage dealers, some boosted stats, some boosted abilities/skills.

I really don't see how my character could work a Bow with 1 hand. Or a 2-handed Axe. Or a 2-handed staff...Or a one...fisted...pugilist?

Yeah, no. Why on earth would a fighter have an obligation to put something in his off hand?


The solution for your OCD would be to just put the main-arm icon in the off-hand so you won't be so confused, but I hardly believe that's worth development time.

What's the point in splitting the stats of any given weapon up into two items? Paladins can do it, because their shields provide not just the remaining stats for their primary weapon, but also Block and Block Rate (which they need, because they're shield tanks).

You're just inflating the loot pools by requiring people to get two pieces of gear that should just be baked into a single weapon, especially if the off-hand item does nothing else but provide stats.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

I really don't see how my character could work a Bow with 1 hand. Or a 2-handed Axe. Or a 2-handed staff...Or a one...fisted...pugilist?

Yeah, no. Why on earth would a fighter have an obligation to put something in his off hand?

The solution for your OCD would be to just put the main-arm icon in the off-hand so you won't be so confused, but I hardly believe that's worth development time.

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Where did I say it be forcing you to use two handed weapons as one handed ones? Off Hand is a bonus item that doesn't always take up your hand. I said treat it as another accessory for those that don't use shields at the end of the post. A Quiver/Arrow for an Archer would be kept on your back or side. Harp for Bard would be on your side. As the one below me mentioned grips could be on the weapon itself. Idols/Focuses can be carried on their person and not held in hand. Beads can be wraped around the arm or worn around the body. Only ones that would need to be held would be the quill. I'm not confused about anything either. I dislike seeing empty slots on my character's equipment screen. If we are allowed to have the slot we should have an item to fill it.

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Originally Posted by Nahara

What's the point in splitting the stats of any given weapon up into two items? Paladins can do it, because their shields provide not just the remaining stats for their primary weapon, but also Block and Block Rate (which they need, because they're shield tanks).

You're just inflating the loot pools by requiring people to get two pieces of gear that should just be baked into a single weapon, especially if the off-hand item does nothing else but provide stats.

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By the same standards, what's the point to adding new gear when all it does is add stat bonuses? Why do we need stat bonus gear at all? Lets not use Rings, they are useless outside of just giving a stat bonus.

I never said anything about separating the stats from the base weapon either. I do not want all classes to be treated as the Gladiator/Paladin. I just want items to use on other classes that still give an added bonus and take up all the usable slots in my equipment screen. All the items I lists add bonuses to what you already get. They don't share anything with your main weapon.

Veil of Wiyu Zenith for example would still give:
Vitality 32
Intelligence 31
Determination 18
Spell Speed 37

And if the Summoner had, Phoenix Quill (Random idea), its stats would be:
M.Def 1
Int: 3
Spell Speed: 3

Just a little added bonus. If we could get special effects, that would be even better. Also I kept it to small bonuses like those of the Rings, but lower cause otherwise they'd be too powerful.

Gladiator and Paladin, as I said was excluded because their weapon set is shield and Sword. None of the other classes are forced to use two sets of items. It would be a nice bonus that can assist with a small stat boost. A little extra boost can go a long way. A WAR with a little extra DET or DEX from a grip doesn't kill it. Bonus Crit Up rate doesn't break it.

If SE would allow more adverse bonuses the secondary items could be of relative use, but other than that its a bonus.

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Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

I never said anything about separating the stats from the base weapon either. I do not want all classes to be treated as the Gladiator/Paladin. I just want items to use on other classes that still give an added bonus and take up all the usable slots in my equipment screen. All the items I lists add bonuses to what you already get. They don't share anything with your main weapon.

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At which point you're just adding item glut. For the bonuses on the level you're talking about, the slot means next to nothing. You're basically asking for a set of arbitrary items to be added, increasing the number of items in the game and diluting the existing loot tables even more, without said addition adding anything appreciable, and this is assuming you mean to have the existing off-hand items inherit the whatever bonuses you mean to provide with your new types of offhands.

The only "benefit" your set is providing is assuaging your arbitrary compulsive desire to see all slots filled even if the content of said slot is basically worthless. If a change doesn't actually improve to the game in an appreciable way, it's not a change worth discussing and that describes your idea perfectly.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

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The same argument can be said for any form of suggestion based on a personal view of the topic. Current content that is being added, and the content added before this were no better in improving the game than the idea I put forth as none of what they added actually improved the gameplay. Look at a majority of the complaints and issues that arose with the new content. All it did was create server stress, horrible fluctuations to the economy, and goes unappreciated by a large number of people that play the game.

Our constantly added events only give you cosmetic items of no real use or value. They constantly add arbitrary items as contest exclusive that are easily outshone by mid level gear. There are worse ideas that are given actual thought and discussion. One of the last larger add ons that has one of the most complaints due to uselessness was Crystal Tower, who introduced a large amount of items that were weaker than two sets of end game gear and is constantly complained about because of the lack of interest in running due to the gear not being worth getting.

Don't have to worry too much about loot if the items in question are craftable which limits them to i70 until the next ilevel update in 2.2 if we get any kinda ilevel cap raise with the crafted gear. The idea IS more practical when items give off more adverse effects than just stat boosts, but SE only allows items that you can equip to give each character a stat boost and nothing more.

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Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

The same argument can be said for any form of suggestion based on a personal view of the topic. Current content that is being added, and the content added before this were no better in improving the game than the idea I put forth as none of what they added actually improved the gameplay. Look at a majority of the complaints and issues that arose with the new content. All it did was create server stress, horrible fluctuations to the economy, and goes unappreciated by a large number of people that play the game.

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It's not even remotely the same thing.

Holiday events are, by design, supposed to add to the game in a way other than gear. What it provides is purely cosmetic. Talking about it adding nothing to the game is like saying that adding new hairstyles or the aesthetician add nothing to the game because they don't contribute stats.

Crystal Tower isn't useless. It's simply not designed with the absolute endgame raiders in mind. The content itself is valuable because it's actual content that you can run. Even if it didn't drop any gear, it would still be adding something to the game because it's an activity. As to the gear itself, it's only useless to the people who've been running at the endgame for months and have gotten boatloads of off-class gear. There are a bunch of people I know that actually find the CT gear to be useful because they haven't been playing long enough to hoard enough myth tomes to be fully decked out in AF2 gear (or the stats on said AF2 gear are terrible and the CT gear presents a more useful alternative while waiting for certain allagan pieces to finally drop).

Your suggestion is explicitly useless. You even said that you wanted it to do as little as possible to stats so as to change as little as possible. It's not providing any new content to run, which both Crystal Tower and the events do. The only thing you're suggesting is adding a new category of gear for people to get that does next to nothing simply because you don't like having an empty slot. The only thing it's "adding" to the game is assuaging the minute annoyance you derive from not having every slot filled. There's *loads* of better stuff for the devs to work on than a problem that exists purely in your mind.

I'm down with the idea of having a little something in the off-hand equipment slot for non-shield users.

At least then it'd soothe my OCD of having an empty slot on my DRG :3

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Originally Posted by Kitru

The only thing it's "adding" to the game is assuaging the minute annoyance you derive from not having every slot filled. There's *loads* of better stuff for the devs to work on than a problem that exists purely in your mind.

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You mean like them working on plugging a different FF sequel for weeks on end into FFXIV which people didn't even care for in the first place? Because that was *so* worth spending lots of man-hours on.

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Originally Posted by Skyl1n3

You mean like them working on plugging a different FF sequel for weeks on end into FFXIV which people didn't even care for in the first place? Because that was *so* worth spending lots of man-hours on.

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Marketing is as marketing does. Devs can't really argue with mandates from corporate requiring them to do tie ins.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

The only "benefit" your set is providing is assuaging your arbitrary compulsive desire to see all slots filled even if the content of said slot is basically worthless. If a change doesn't actually improve to the game in an appreciable way, it's not a change worth discussing and that describes your idea perfectly.

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It's more widgets to collect, which is half of the point for these types of games.

Besides, the shields are a little wonky now. They need to fit offhand drops for 1 class (and 2 other classes sorta, sometimes) into the existing drop pools. For instance, most classes get their full i95 level of stats from their main/offhand slot if they get an allagan weapon. However, blm and pld only have 1 hand allagan weapons, and as a result are capped at slightly lower stat points because they only have i90 offhand items available to them. If most (or all) classes had offhands, there'd be more uniformity to the loot between classes.

You could also do things like removing offhands from coil entirely, only dropping offhands from certain primal fights or something.

You guys are missing the point.

The correct action would be to just hide the slot when a 2-hander is equipped. It's there and you can hove rover it to reveal it, but otherwise it's hidden

Boom. Problem solved

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

It's more widgets to collect, which is half of the point for these types of games.

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Except that you're adding a new category of widget that basically does nothing as opposed to adding new widgets to those categories that already exist that are designed to actually do something. The argument that it's new gear and therefore a good idea doesn't really work because gear is supposed to actually do something useful (barring the collectable event stuff, which the OP isn't suggesting these be) whereas all this new type of gear does is fill up a slot that's currently left empty because there's no need for it. The purpose of this suggestion isn't to fix some balance question but purely to assuage someone's obsessiveness with filling all of their slots. It's like someone complaining about not being able to be stack weapons/armor/etc in their inventory and demanding that the devs design a new aspect of the inventory system so that they can stack them while still preserving the independent identity of each item.

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For instance, most classes get their full i95 level of stats from their main/offhand slot if they get an allagan weapon. However, blm and pld only have 1 hand allagan weapons, and as a result are capped at slightly lower stat points because they only have i90 offhand items available to them. If most (or all) classes had offhands, there'd be more uniformity to the loot between classes.

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There's a few problems with your analysis here.

First off, current offhands afford more than just the basic stats on them because of the block rating/value so it's not like there is no benefit to using MH/OH as opposed to a 2h MH. The only class that doesn't "benefit" from this is PLD and that's only because they're built around using a shield at all times.

Secondly, the fact that PLD doesn't have an i95 offhand means that they're shorted a single point of VIT/STR/secondary out of total stat pools of several hundred, which means that the impact of the shield "penalty" is less than than of your racial selection. Choosing to be a Lalafell instead of a Roegadyn is going to do more to your tank stats than having 1/3rd of your MH budget being i90 instead of i95. If you're going to complain about the stat difference, be prepared to face the fact that you'd also need to complain about relative strength of certain races and subraces at given jobs/roles since that matters more.

Lastly, as to uniformity of loot, offhands represent a laughably minor aspect since there are only 3 classes that use them and only one of them uses them often. The bigger issue is that DoW DPS classes have a much greater chance of getting drops because there is always 1 piece of gear for each of those classes to use explicitly: for accs, there are 2 STR pieces for MNK and DRG and 1 for BRD alone and, for the rest of the gear, there's one piece for MNK, one for DRG, and one for BRD. For tanks, healers, and casters, there is a single piece of loot for each given tier, in every single slot except for MH, that is used by 2 classes. MNK, DRG, and BRD have twice the chance of getting useful gear compared to the other classes, which represents a helluva lot bigger issue to uniformity and balance of loot distribution than the altogether ignorable "penalty" associated with having to find a shield in addition to an MH (especially given that shields tend to drop earlier than actual MHs so they're easier to get). Complaining about OHs screwing up distribution of loot is just getting anal retentive.

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You could also do things like removing offhands from coil entirely, only dropping offhands from certain primal fights or something.

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Which simply means that you'd have those fights providing the new category of gear rather than more gear for the current categories, which reduces the options for the slots we already have. Furthermore, because the stats are so intended to be so low, the only place you'd see them would be the end game and, even then, they would have to have a lot of space between the relative upgrades because of cripplingly low itemization budget afforded to the slot. You'd be displacing options for current gear slots (which would be class/job specific, as well, instead of role specific, further increasing the glut) for items that no one is really going to see much of (because it's endgame exclusive), won't really have much choice in what to take (small itemization budget and specific class/job limitation means that there will be fewer potential stat allocations and a higher ratio of not-equippable to equippable items), and won't even have the chance to upgrade without massive increases in item level (low itemization budget; with i90 providing 3, going from 3 to 4 for whatever stat is a 25% increase in total itemization budget, which, at best, means having a 20+ ilevel gap between upgrades).

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Originally Posted by Raestloz

You guys are missing the point.

The correct action would be to just hide the slot when a 2-hander is equipped. It's there and you can hove rover it to reveal it, but otherwise it's hidden

Boom. Problem solved

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That would only work with everything but Arcanist with the ability to fill the off hand slot if and only if Conjurer and Thaumaturge don't use two handed weapons in exchange and aren't running with shields for what ever reason they choose to not fully utilize everything at their disposal.

I wouldn't want just Arcanist to get item fillers even as bonus things when other classes don't get equal rights to them.

Also assuming we get more 1 handed only classes in the future, still would be weird.

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Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

That would only work with everything but Arcanist

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The real problem is this:

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Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

This is something that has slightly bugged me. I don't really like looking at an empty slot on my character window and believe that every game should have a way to fill every character's equipment slot.

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So the correct action is not try to retrofit everyone with off-hand items, but to hide the slot so you no longer see empty slot. The cover can be anything, from plain old total transparency to something that looks like an off-hand item

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Originally Posted by Kitru

stuff.

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Oh, like there's a whole lot of variety now. VIT + Main stat + secondary stats the end. Even secondary stats don't provide much in the way of choice. Secondary stats only end up having 2 best options anyhow. Gear for accuracy (coil) or no accuracy (primals). So what is that more flexibility going to give us? Ability to add more gear with subpar stats?

And it's perfectly acceptable to just have a stat stick.
Rings? stat stick. DoH have offhands? same.

Bloat on itemization? Very small. Every class already has 12 slots to fill, 1 has 13, and 2 others have 13 ... sometimes. Adding a 13th for all other classes would not add very much in the grand scheme of things. And since it has the lowest item budget of any item, there don't even need to be that many options for them. Even less if some classes can share some of those offhands.

And you can't make the i95 argument that it's "ok" because they gain block for losing that ilvl on the shield. That's not how the VAST majority of the game works. Most of time, there's an exact ilevel appropriate off hand to match any ilevel MH. They didn't purposely not add the i95 offhand because of some semblance of balance. The devs just didn't want to find some place to stick it.

Besides, you can't tell me the whole way it's set up isn't very awkward right now. For classes that can use 2h or 1h+shield, there is no benefit whatsoever to getting the 2h item. Those classes *usually* use the 2h item anyway, but that's just because they aren't given any options for the 2h item.

Even the places they drop are weird. Outside of tokens usually means that class gives up the offhand for the MH slot. There's no titan sword, for instance. Even with tokens you can end up with some bizarre mismatches. There's a BLM primal 2h and a BLM primal offhand. If every class had off hands, then at least every class would be treated the same way, not a bunch of special cases just to wedge off hands in for those few classes that need it.

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Lastly, as to uniformity of loot, offhands represent a laughably minor aspect since there are only 3 classes that use them and only one of them uses them often. The bigger issue is that DoW DPS classes have a much greater chance of getting drops because there is always 1 piece of gear for each of those classes to use explicitly: for accs, there are 2 STR pieces for MNK and DRG and 1 for BRD alone and, for the rest of the gear, there's one piece for MNK, one for DRG, and one for BRD. For tanks, healers, and casters, there is a single piece of loot for each given tier, in every single slot except for MH, that is used by 2 classes. MNK, DRG, and BRD have twice the chance of getting useful gear compared to the other classes, which represents a helluva lot bigger issue to uniformity and balance of loot distribution than the altogether ignorable "penalty" associated with having to find a shield in addition to an MH (especially given that shields tend to drop earlier than actual MHs so they're easier to get).

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This I will agree with. And it's a more important issue too. But it's also a separate issue and has no bearing on the pros or cons of adding an offhand slot.

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Complaining about OHs screwing up distribution of loot is just getting anal retentive.

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Not having off hands for most classes isn't some catastrophic omission for the game. But adding them isn't the terrible idea you seem to be making it out to be either. The only counter argument that I agree with in any fashion is that it adds to a bloated item system. But the addition would be so small, I think the increased uniformity to class drops and the benefit of getting extra stuff to collect outweighs this.

I think there is no problem with the idea as long as we take out the minor/useless stats on these "offhand" items and just making them purely cosmetic. So if he wants super shiny arrows on his bard he can have them or what have you. And if we also make these part of an event or quest of some kind and not part of dungeon drops then it won't mess with loot tables. Or make it craftable to help the market. I personally would like to see more of these kinds of items because they are fun to collect. I do agree that we shouldn't let that part of the game interfere with the other aspects of the game that deal with being an effective combatant. In this particular instance, I think it's possible to have our cake and eat it.

For a Bard, I could see an arrow quiver, or using a crossbow instead of a bow (in order to free up the off-hand).

:3

I like the idea overall. Rather than instruments for Bards, how about sights (for bows, craftable items) or armguards (also craftable)?

It would be nice if they're visible items, but even if not, I'd take the stat or even ability boosts they could provide. They don't need to be next to useless, nor a huge buff either. All in all, it's just a good idea, especially if it gets crafters involved again. Hell, for that matter, make them available ONLY through crafting or maybe treasure hunts.