Mantra and Bard

How important is mantra for a bard? I figure that a 5% healing increase is not of top concern when monks have it at 20%. I understand it can be useful, but didn't know just how essential it is. Reason being, a member of my coil group is making a big deal out of me getting mantra within a month or so when my pug is only 15.

So is mantra really that big of a necessity for Turns 4-5? We are a group filled with fairly new people who have only cleared up to turn 3 and should have turn 4 down within a week or two.

Thanks!

It depends on your party composition. I personally wouldnt think you'd need Mantra (5% really) the people that are going to need the most healing are your melee attackers, and a bard isnt even going to be near them so..

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Originally Posted by MrDiezel

It depends on your party composition. I personally wouldnt think you'd need Mantra (5% really) the people that are going to need the most healing are your melee attackers, and a bard isnt even going to be near them so..

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Currently our line up is 2 pld, 2 whm, mnk, drg, blm, smn.

I'm the smn atm until my bard is 50 which should only be a few more days.

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Originally Posted by Darkstatic107

How important is mantra for a bard? I figure that a 5% healing increase is not of top concern when monks have it at 20%. I understand it can be useful, but didn't know just how essential it is. Reason being, a member of my coil group is making a big deal out of me getting mantra within a month or so when my pug is only 15.

So is mantra really that big of a necessity for Turns 4-5? We are a group filled with fairly new people who have only cleared up to turn 3 and should have turn 4 down within a week or two.

Thanks!

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With t4 and t5 throwing a lot of damage everywhere, its not a bad idea to have it, work with your mnk, probably use urs first on not so heavy damage, and mnk blow his when the sh!t hits the fan... in 4 and 5 there are times when the party should group up, good time to use it, whm throws out a med 2... point is its, not a must have, its just helping the party and helping ur healers.

You as a BRD and having mantra, will not make or break a party with or without a monk. 20% from the mnk on the other hand is very useful at times. If your having to rely on a 5% mantra or any version to get you through T4 then your healers or tanks are not ready for that turn. T5 mantra, it can help (mnk version), but again if your going to be told to have it as a BRD so you guys can get through it...your prob not going to make it through.

Tough love, your mate's wrong. Get the ability yes, but making you "have" it to progress is ridiculous...ESP putting a time restriction on you. Let me guess he is prob a healer or tank?

As a MNK, it may not seem like a lot, but as an innate ability most WHM/SCH's have said that it helps. As a BRD I know it's not as big a buff, but it still helps. During Titan, as a MNK, I time it so that during his second jump Mantra is up as he lands, and I know it'll be up in time after the heart phase.

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Originally Posted by Pinworms

You as a BRD and having mantra, will not make or break a party with or without a monk. 20% from the mnk on the other hand is very useful at times. If your having to rely on a 5% mantra or any version to get you through T4 then your healers or tanks are not ready for that turn. T5 mantra, it can help (mnk version), but again if your going to be told to have it as a BRD so you guys can get through it...your prob not going to make it through.

Tough love, your mate's wrong. Get the ability yes, but making you "have" it to progress is ridiculous...ESP putting a time restriction on you. Let me guess he is prob a healer or tank?

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Yes, hes a whm, and he is also the one that has been guiding us through the turns. While I greatly appreciate everything he has done for me and our group, this is one thing that I disagree with him on. However, being new, I wanted to get my other peoples opinions first before I bring it up.

I also understand that it is a helpful spell. But I also believe that if it is a necessity for our group then something else is wrong.

Been clearing coil T1 - T5 without Mantra in our party composition. I hate to say this, but your partymates are just looking for a reason to blame their own lackings. LOL!

As a Bard not having Mantra will NOT stop your progression but it will help the group over all. I play Monk as main in Coil and I always use my Mantra on MT while MT is tanking two Dreadnaughts from phase 5 and 6. I wish the Bard would have Mantra for me and OT while we kill the Knight and Soldier during phase 5; especially, when we have 2 Melees in the group. The AOE from both Soldier and Knight can be pain even with defensive CD. Mantra + Regen from WHM and EOS on Melees/OT will allow healer to concentrate on healing MT that is tanking 2 Dreadnaughts.
Same goes to the BLM having Quelling Strike and Eye for an Eye, it does help.

For your group, one of the Melees should change into Bard. You should stay on SMN for Turn 4 and Turn 5. Have two heavy AOE DD for phase 4(2 Rooks and 6 Spiders) will help a lot. Also, since you have 2 WHM in your group, you would most likely want an extra body count from SMN's pet for Turn 5 Fire Ball.
Having a SMN in group will add another set of Virus, Eye for an Eye and instant Raise. SMN is also one of the best DD in the game for both Single and AOE.

Plenty of reasons to put up mantra.... I use it regularly as a Bard.. Does it make a serious difference in content? NO... but i like to think that it helps. Kinda like the DRG ability to reduce 10% piercing damage.... is the 30 seconds of hitting a monster for 10 hp more really all that more helpful in a fight like Ultima? Probably not... but to get optimum performance, i like to think using Mantra is a way better alternative than featherfoot or such...

AND. Its an ability that is helpful without causing me a loss in damage like my songs are, so i'm all game for putting up mantra EVERY SINGLE TIME we stack up in content, whether its needed or not.... just to say "HEY, F U, I got mantra" cause It was painful leveling a monk to 50.... very painful, and i probably wont touch that job again

Our Static DPS is 2 DRG, BLM, SMN. No Mantra at all (neither of us is willing to level MNK right now lol)

Do we have any issues? Nope. 5% healing boost isn't going to make or break anything.

Especially Mantra on a BRD is unnecessary. A DRG would use it to boost healing on themselves and the tank...a BRD would need to move into melee range really close to the tank, which will most likely cause more harm than healing. And since you have a MNK already...its really not needed at all

Your WHM is just looking for a reason to blame others for his failings. You don't even need a BRD in Coil 1-4 at all with a PLD and MNK for ADS silences.

Both of our melee don't have bard leveled up at all so that wouldn't work. My reason for switching to bard from smn is because I was told that a bard was essential to a group and that we would not be able to clear T4 or T5 without one.

i am i86 but only have a 16 lancer. i've cleared t4 and healing was never close to an issue its always been feeding spiders, tanks keeping hate or dpsing the right mobs. i have never tried t5. if your healers cant keep up they need better gear or more practice. as a brd you would only get hit by the spinner rooks at most. if u get hit with cleaves or pull hate from a knight then you need to adjust. you "can" use foe req on spiders and the first dread then normally you will BV ballad for p4/5 i think.

blms should switch soldiers if they pull hate and dds all need to watch for cleaves. healers need to feed spiders properly and tanks need to keep hate. now the only issue would be your tank not surviving double dreads. that part is a party effort. mantra is better then featherfoot but not the critical factor to beating t1-4

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Originally Posted by Darkstatic107

Both of our melee don't have bard leveled up at all so that wouldn't work. My reason for switching to bard from smn is because I was told that a bard was essential to a group and that we would not be able to clear T4 or T5 without one.

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You can clear T4 easy with no BRD; its all about positioning and kill-order. Our best clears have been DRG, DRG, MNK, SMN, and our current static is DRG, DRG, BLM, SMN.

Not sure about T5 (we haven't really started on it due to scheduling issues)...but you're no where near ready for T5 if you haven't been in T4 for a while. So don't worry about that yet. As far as I know, a BRD is great for learning T5, but once you've cleared it a few times BRD is unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Darkstatic107

Both of our melee don't have bard leveled up at all so that wouldn't work. My reason for switching to bard from smn is because I was told that a bard was essential to a group and that we would not be able to clear T4 or T5 without one.

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ya you need a brd for mages ballaf. you also need enough dps though so an i50 brd is not too likely to cut it. if your healers were i90 may not need ballad, not sure

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Originally Posted by Defiledsickness

ya you need a brd for mages ballaf. you also need enough dps though so an i50 brd is not too likely to cut it. if your healers were i90 may not need ballad, not sure

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All bard gear that has dropped has gone to me as well as gear i've gotten from the past two weeks in CT. I also have saved up philo tomes and myth tomes to buy enough gear to have myself covered.

We are a fresh group, this is only our second week together. We have reached phase 6 of turn 4 numerous times but our dps is not quite there. Particularly my dps as a smn is not quite there since I am saving all my tomes for bard gear. Ive brought up this up and mentioned gearing out my smn with my tomes which would probably fix a lot of our issues, but apparently a bard is more important than a smn and since I will switch anyway, then I shouldn't waste tomes.My bard is 45 and should be max by this weekend.

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Originally Posted by Darkstatic107

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If you were just having DPS issues you WILL have more with a BRD. I know a BLM can solo-magicDPS T4...but they have to be near i90 to do so. SMN can be lesser0geared and do it solo thanks to how the class works.

Unless one of your melee is going caster...you're going to have one heck of a bad time in T4 with you switching to BRD.


First, do you like SMN or BRD more? If you like SMN more, or are just leveling BRD because they told you to...leave the group and find one that wants you as a SMN, and gear SMN up
If you do like BRD...then keep going like this if you want.

Personally, I would leave them and find a group that wants me for the class I want to do. Your group sounds a little toxic based on what you've said, and I wouldn't stick around.

At first I really hated my smn which is why I decided to switch to bard. Now I don't mind it as much and both classes are enjoyable. It isnt my group per se, as its just one member who is bringing all this up. We are also a group from the same FC and all enjoy each other. It's mostly trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. My gear is really really bad as a smn, im wearing crafted gear with darklight accessories and a relic wep with an ilvl of 70.

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Originally Posted by Darkstatic107

At first I really hated my smn which is why I decided to switch to bard. Now I don't mind it as much and both classes are enjoyable. It isnt my group per se, as its just one member who is bringing all this up. We are also a group from the same FC and all enjoy each other. It's mostly trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. My gear is really really bad as a smn, im wearing crafted gear with darklight accessories and a relic wep with an ilvl of 70.

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How geared are the other people in your group, specifically the healers and BLM? And remind me of the total group comp (sorry, don't feel like reading the thread again; know you said MNK, BLM and 2 WHM)


You have to make a few decisions.

First, do you like SMN or BRD better? Do you like the people in your group enough to keep going with this one person who is trying to boss everyone around? Will you regret not gearing your SMN if you gear your BRD?


What I would do is talk to everyone in your group.

Bring up these points:

1) How are we going to make up the lack of Magic DPS in T4 if I go BRD?

2) Are you sure we need a BRD for Manasong?

3) Why isn't one of the other Physical DPS going for BRD? (if you want to gear SMN more than BRD)

4) Are one of the Physical DPS going to change to a Caster to replace me? (if you go BRD)


EDIT: Also, what exactly is your SMN gear? And what do you have specifically for BRD right now?

Then it looks like your Monk should be using Mantra at appropriate times. 5% can help, but its not a substantial boost. But if you have the hotbar space/ cross class space for it, why not

Here's my opinion... is Mantra crucial? No. Is mantra helpful? Absolutely. Now here is my question to you... Why wouldn't you want to give you and your group every advantage you can? The mentality of "you should be able to get by without it so don't bother" boggles my mind. All I see when I read that is laziness and apathy.

When you're in a static doing endgame raiding, everyone should bring everything they can to the table to help the group succeed. If you're not, then why are you even there? If you don't care enough to maximize what you can bring to the group, why should you expect anyone else in the group to?

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Originally Posted by Tinks

Here's my opinion... is Mantra crucial? No. Is mantra helpful? Absolutely. Now here is my question to you... Why wouldn't you want to give you and your group every advantage you can? The mentality of "you should be able to get by without it so don't bother" boggles my mind. All I see when I read that is laziness and apathy.

When you're in a static doing endgame raiding, everyone should bring everything they can to the table to help the group succeed. If you're not, then why are you even there? If you don't care enough to maximize what you can bring to the group, why should you expect anyone else in the group to?

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Tell me...as a WHM, if it takes 1 Medica to bring everyone to full health...does an extra 5% bonus help or not?

Our comp is 2 pld, 2 whm, drg, mnk, and blm. Everyone is around ilvl 80-85. My smn gear is the full vanya set except for pants as I have crimson breeches from CT. I also have darklight ring, waist, ear, and neck as well as relic wep.

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Originally Posted by Darkstatic107

Our comp is 2 pld, 2 whm, drg, mnk, and blm. Everyone is around ilvl 80-85. My smn gear is the full vanya set except for pants as I have crimson breeches from CT. I also have darklight ring, waist, ear, and neck as well as relic wep.

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OK, one last time, do you like SMN or BRD better? That's the decision you have to make.

Your group is going to be really light on magic damage if you go BRD, so you're going to have issues. Your WHM should be able to manage MP without a BRD at those ilv as well.

Gearing your SMN will mean you have enough DPS to pass without much issue, as long as your WHM don't derp on MP management.

And to be really honest...one of the WHM should go SCH; it will help out a lot IMO...

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Originally Posted by PArcher

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I like my bard better. My only concern is this whole mantra issue which is why I posted this. I'm talking with the same guy atm and he's stating that if I decide to do bard then he needs mantra.

Normally I wouldn't mind, however I already leveled a monk up from 1-50 in two weeks with friends on a different server just a month ago. They quit, so I went back to my original server. Leveling has burnt me out and while I understand mantra can be useful, I don't think its that important that I absolutely need it.

Also, he doesnt have the gear for sch apparently. TBH he should get the gear as it would make things easier for us

no one said mantra wad bad but personally i dont have a lot of time to lvl every job. mantra is not needed to clear t4 and ive never had anyone ask me if i had it available. i would replace featherfoot with it if i could but atm lvling my whm and gearing my pld take priority.

if your group thinks you need mantra they are getting bad advice. invigorate is pretty important imo but not mantra.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Tell me...as a WHM, if it takes 1 Medica to bring everyone to full health...does an extra 5% bonus help or not?

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Tell me, how often would you be using mantra when a single Medica will bring everyone up to full health? If that's when you're blowing it, you're doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Tinks

Tell me, how often would you be using mantra when a single Medica will bring everyone up to full health? If that's when you're blowing it, you're doing it wrong.

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the main point here is that his healers need better gear and he does not need mantra for t4. but its up to him how he wants to get along with his static and fc

if your healers are relying on anyone else in the group to help mitigate damage or boost their heals besides the tanks they are healing then they arent ready for healing t4.

healing t4 successfully relies on a few things, melee cc skills are not among them. the first key to success is positioning, the other is the tanks popping the proper cool downs during p5-6. a 5% healing boost is going to mean approx. sh*t when the tank is being wailed on by 2 dreadnaughts

Bard using Mantra? That's first time I've heard this lol..

Nope Bard doesn't need Mantra. Use that slot for another cross class skill instead.

I've never heard of any of my present and past FC raid teams that says their Bard needs to have and use Mantra too.

dont bother. mnk mantra is far superior. bards mantra is meh :/

not mandatory at all. one of those optional skills that you can do fine without. :p

How are you even planning to be 50 without Mantra?

It's such a mandatory skill any content you fail clearing will be because you don't have it.

I'm horrified at the thought of Bards without Mantra.

/sarcasm

Obviously it's not mandatory and there is little chance it's going to make or break a fight.
So I agree with you that it seems silly for him to put some sort of timetable on you getting the skill.

However; we don't really have any other skill to replace it with that makes a difference either, so you might as well pick it up because 5% is better than nothing right?
I use it every time one of the EX Primals does their "2hour". I use it during Turn2 enrage. I use it right before Fireball if my side gets targeted and before aetherial explosion on Twintania.
Has it ever prevented a wipe? Probably not. But it certainly doesn't hurt.

Bardo, those are legitimate places to use it.

But where in Turn 4 is it at all helpful for a Bard to have mantra? Only time you should be near the tanks are during spiders, and there is not really enough raid damage pre-enrage for it to be a factor at all. If your positioning is correct, only the tanks and melee ever take more than a random swipe or 2 over the entire fight. It in no way will be a significant factor in that fight.

I will say, losing that rez, super virus, E4E, contagion baned dots, and an extra body to soak fireballs will hurt that raid group a lot more than the OP going bard will help it. Make one of the mDPS do it.

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Originally Posted by Hitokirinomad

But where in Turn 4 is it at all helpful for a Bard to have mantra?

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I guess you could run up and throw it on the main tank after the 1st Dreadnaught eats spiders?
And like you said, you could use it if you hit the enrage because it's possible to heal through it for a while.

Actually though, Turn4 is one of the very few fights where you could make the case that Featherfoot is actually better than Mantra.
You can pop Featherfoot and "tank" the Phase 5 Rook that drops.
So if he's telling you to get it specifically for Turn4, then I don't know what to say... that's just dumb.

That doesn't preclude it from being useful on other fights though, so my advice to the OP is still "you should probably pick it up eventually."

From a healer standpoint, I tend to run into overheal situations or too much damage at once, but haven't quite come across, "not enough healed" on the party after Titan HM tumults.

My Medica II (atm) affected by a 5% mantra does about 130 more HP over 30 seconds. And on a Cure III, about an extra 70 HP give or take depending on the cast. Between two healers, if we use two heal spells (e.g. precast a Medica II, then Cure III or Medica, position depending, then the other healer is doing similar), we're probably going to be overhealing by a big chunk.

Can Mantra help? Sure. But to me, it's not worth rushing up Monk for. If you're leveling Monk for fun and you happen to get Mantra along the way, cool.

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Originally Posted by Bardo

That doesn't preclude it from being useful on other fights though, so my advice to the OP is still "you should probably pick it up eventually."

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I still don't have it and I have no intention to get it.. it's really not needed, it doesn't affect me in clearing any of the game's contents at all.

My group used to use mantra when we hit the enrage in Turn 4, since we all stack up to burn the last dreadnaught, mantra will hit everyone, our bards, one of which is me, and dragoon all have mantra. Now we don't actually even need it anymore, since we don't hit enrage, or even if we do it's just for like few seconds. Nice skills to have, but 5% is not even enough when you need emergency heal top up unlike Monk 20% version. Nowadays I used Monk for turn 4-5, so if mantra is really needed mine is more effective. I am curious you group has a dragoon, does your dragoon have mantra, because the most you need is like 2 mantra for turn 4 if your dps is a bit low, the monk and dragoon can use theirs.

If you have time just level it, but I would say that if your dragoon have mantra, couple with monk's is more than enough to go around, it's easier for melee mantra to hit tank than range, if that's what they going to use it for.

Honestly, what other options are there, though? Let's list them out.. Invigorate and Blood For Blood are givens, as is Internal Release. That leaves us Featherfoot, Second Wind, Mantra, Feint, and Haymaker.. Least I think that's all of them. Haymaker has next to zero use, reactive and all. Feint is a bit depressing without the improved trait from DRG, giving it 10/5/3 before a 60 second slow resist lockout. Second wind is always a nice option to have, in that "OH GAWD THAT HURT!" moments. So that leaves the primary choices to be either Featherfoot or Mantra, Both of which are situational at best. Given this is all just my opinion on it though.

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Originally Posted by Truefaith87

Honestly, what other options are there, though? Let's list them out.. Invigorate and Blood For Blood are givens, as is Internal Release. That leaves us Featherfoot, Second Wind, Mantra, Feint, and Haymaker.. Least I think that's all of them. Haymaker has next to zero use, reactive and all. Feint is a bit depressing without the improved trait from DRG, giving it 10/5/3 before a 60 second slow resist lockout. Second wind is always a nice option to have, in that "OH GAWD THAT HURT!" moments. So that leaves the primary choices to be either Featherfoot or Mantra, Both of which are situational at best. Given this is all just my opinion on it though.

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I'd have Keen Flurry over Mantra / Featherfoot anytime. And it's not time consuming at all if you're not planning to level a Mnk.