@ Darkhold Discussion and possible 1.18 Job System

This is a minor re-post but adding it to a new topic so it gets more attention.

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Originally Posted by Foxclon

こんにちは。

今回実装されるレイドダンジョンは、一言で言えば「高難易度」と想定されています。中でも特に皆さんが気にされているボスモンスターの難易度について、開発チームと確認してきました。

ゼメール要塞の場合ですと、特技ランク50の8人PTが役割を明確にしたうえで、且つ単に通常の敵の強い版ということではなく、ボスモンスターにあった専用の戦い方をしないと倒すことができないとのことでした。

私自身もまだ触れていませんが、これは楽しみですね

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Originally Posted by Foxclon

The upcoming dungeons are estimated to be, in a nutshell, "really hard". I also confirmed the dungeon boss's difficulty with the dev team.

If you ever hope to defeat The Dzemael Darkhold dungeon boss, you will need to clearly assign roles amongst your specialized party of 8 rank 50 players. Furthermore, you can't just think of the boss as just a strong version of an ordinary monster. You will need to use special, boss-specific strategies to achieve victory.

I haven't played it myself yet, but I am looking forward to it

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Everyone completely missed an important line and some important facts in the other thread.

#1

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If you ever hope to defeat The Dzemael Darkhold dungeon boss, you will need to clearly assign roles amongst your specialized party of 8 rank 50 players.

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Specialized party? This sounds like a hint towards new job system to me. If 1.18 housed new job system + dungeons this would be a massive step forward.

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Rather than being advanced versions of classes, we would like players to think of jobs as specialized playing styles optimized for partying. While playing as a particular job will render you unable to equip certain actions of other classes, you will be compensated with access to exclusive actions, which can be acquired through quests.

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#2

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Are four players required to enter rank 25+ raids? And 8 for 45+?
Currently, yes. Rank 25+ raids will require four players to enter, and rank 45+ raids will require a full party of 8. This is a result of the balancing that is done inside of the actual raid, along with ensuring proper load on the servers are maintained. With the release of patch 1.18 we will monitor the comments and feedback from the community and re-evaluate as necessary and implement variations as needed.

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You cannot "solo" a dungeon. Unless you bring in 3 or 7 other people to AFK and let you do the work then it wont happen. Or if you multi-box multiple Characters. Either way I doubt we will be seeing it done for a very long time.



While #1 is JUST SPECULATION I Hope this brightens people's outlook on 1.18 a little bit more.

I'm still dubious that jobs will be anywhere near 1.18 release. Hell they might not even be a 1.19 thing.

Other than that I AM looking forward to the patch whenever it decides to roll out here. hopefully we hear something about a patch date soon.

Dungeons are supposed to be in 1.18 and they said jobs were supposed to be for things like dungeons.

So at the very least their wording is misleading.

Probably jobs will be in 1.20 imo. These first 2 dungeons will be suitable for the actual classes probably.

Yeah I kinda get a sneaky feeling jobs will be in for 1.18 or at least the basic framework for them. Still wondering how they are going to add them are they going to flash them out with a storyline and their own guilds, may in Ishgard ^^ or is it just a bolt on to the guilds we have already. I think it would be great to tie them in with the opening of Ishgards gates but do you think they will open them in 1.18. I wouldn't have thought so but you never know.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I'm still dubious that jobs will be anywhere near 1.18 release. Hell they might not even be a 1.19 thing.

Other than that I AM looking forward to the patch whenever it decides to roll out here. hopefully we hear something about a patch date soon.

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I'm gonna go with a Producers Letter on the 8th and patch on the 11th. And yeah it's SO HARD to try and not get a little enthusiastic at Yoshida's "slip of the tongue" in regards to specialized parties in 1.18 dungeons - but I really can't help it. It may be completely nothing in the end and I'll be fine with it. But then again... :confused:

I just like the part about it being intended to be uber hard im dying for this type of challenge.

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Originally Posted by Richard

This is a minor
#1
Specialized party? This sounds like a hint towards new job system to me. If 1.18 housed new job system + dungeons this would be a massive step forward.

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I hope your right,wouldn't it be terrible if you couldn't beat the boss without jobs and SE didn't release them in the patch.Like "you wanted hard,here you go f***ers!" Id ROTFL yet cry a little inside.

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Originally Posted by CptGrimlock

I hope your right,wouldn't it be terrible if you couldn't beat the boss without jobs and SE didn't release them in the patch.Like "you wanted hard,here you go f***ers!" Id ROTFL yet cry a little inside.

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I could see that happening, they give us our hard dungeon to shut us up but the only way to beat it is with jobs which have not yet been implemented ^^

4 Absolute Virtues at the end of the dungeon.

SE: "SUCK IT!"
SE begins casting Meteoraga

I hope it DOES pose a challenge and not just a time thing, but a real MP management, placement and TP heavy strategy that involves discussing in real time how to manage the boss. Something like the Darklord where it's resistant to Magic when it's down, or something, that'd be brilliant.

With auto-attack we can focus more on strategy than spamming, I'm really looking forward to the difficulty levels. With the disappointment of the last storyline missions behind us, I hope the team has learned and is looking into making future content just as difficult as XI's requiring active participation.

It could be that they implement the dungeon but NOT the job system and simply expect us to fail until we do have a job system.

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Originally Posted by CptGrimlock

I hope your right,wouldn't it be terrible if you couldn't beat the boss without jobs and SE didn't release them in the patch.Like "you wanted hard,here you go f***ers!" Id ROTFL yet cry a little inside.

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I'd actually have fun doing the dungeon Without jobs and then With jobs, just to see the changes by first person =)

I reallty hoped they did that.. add them in to surprise everyone. But after reading the french rep answer on the thread about dungeon implementation, the same thread that the rep confirmed there would be no cap limits on the dungeons, he says that they might change the restriction of needing 4 or 8 players (depending of the dungeon) because of the player feedback. So... honestly I wouldn't count on it.

Yes, I think they should let us in without jobs and have it be too difficult to complete. And then we can experiment with jobs once released to see how we can improve on the strategies.

Bump, can we get a rep response?

They should probably implement classes first to save some re-balancing on the content, but whatever.... XD

I'm pretty sure that there was no mention of jobs being in 1.18, just that they'd be out by summer's end, which could be the end of August or September depending on how they look at it. They'll probably be in by 1.19 or 1.20.

Reps probably wont respond to this to keep the ambiguity of the patch intact for now. The Devs/Reps said it would be before end of summer but also did not say it wouldn't be in 1.18. Still a 50/50 shot at they pulling a good surprise move.

I also see Dungeons being ultimately easier on Classes than Jobs. At the moment Classes are the jack of all trades which has made ALL content up to this point a complete cake walk. So you can have 8 classes who have heals and damage mitigation abilities in an 8 man dungeon as opposed to you having 2-3 healers 1-2 tanks and the rest DPS when we can switch over to jobs.

If SE was smart they would indeed add jobs in 1.18, get the balancing out of the way and start focusing on more content as the top priority.

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Originally Posted by Richard

Reps probably wont respond to this to keep the ambiguity of the patch intact for now. The Devs/Reps said it would be before end of summer but also did not say it wouldn't be in 1.18. Still a 50/50 shot at they pulling a good surprise move.

I also see Dungeons being ultimately easier on Classes than Jobs. At the moment Classes are the jack of all trades which has made ALL content up to this point a complete cake walk. So you can have 8 classes who have heals and damage mitigation abilities in an 8 man dungeon as opposed to you having 2-3 healers 1-2 tanks and the rest DPS when we can switch over to jobs.

If SE was smart they would indeed add jobs in 1.18, get the balancing out of the way and start focusing on more content as the top priority.

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I believe in 1.18 we will be getting the first of the Class adjustments that come along with the auto attack system. From what it sounds like we will no longer be able to cross class as we please and will be restricted to lower tier skill's and abilities from other classes. So you wouldn't be able to equip cure 3 on your MRD only Cure 1 and maybe Cure 2 depending where they set the cut off point.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

I believe in 1.18 we will be getting the first of the Class adjustments that come along with the auto attack system. From what it sounds like we will no longer be able to cross class as we please and will be restricted to lower tier skill's and abilities from other classes. So you wouldn't be able to equip cure 3 on your MRD only Cure 1 and maybe Cure 2 depending where they set the cut off point.

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I wouldn't have a problem with this if it were the case actually. It doesn't do the game balance any good if everyone is a veritable ubermensch throughout the whole game. This gives it the sort of limits that subjobs had in FFXI, while still giving the ability to mix and match a variety of abilities from other classes as per the armory system, while still saying "you need a specialist".

Sounds like what I originally thought the Armory system was going to be.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

I wouldn't have a problem with this if it were the case actually. It doesn't do the game balance any good if everyone is a veritable ubermensch throughout the whole game. This gives it the sort of limits that subjobs had in FFXI, while still giving the ability to mix and match a variety of abilities from other classes as per the armory system, while still saying "you need a specialist".

Sounds like what I originally thought the Armory system was going to be.

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Exactly I am thinking of it as a sub job 2.0 system in which you are not limited to just one class to choose skills from but every class. Now the trick will be in the balancing, SE said they would be making more skills Class specific and they wouldn't be allowed to cross class, so hopefully nothing like Utsusemi will come along and break everything by being allowed to cross class ^^

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

Exactly I am thinking of it as a sub job 2.0 system in which you are not limited to just one class to choose skills from but every class. Now the trick will be in the balancing, SE said they would be making more skills Class specific and they wouldn't be allowed to cross class, so hopefully nothing like Utsusemi will come along and break everything by being allowed to cross class ^^

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If they are starting the cross class blocking (before jobs) in 1.18 then they need to do it completely. If you take away Cure III from all jobs except CON then you need to take away Cure I-II as well. There can be no compromise. That would defeat the purpose of trying to specialize classes. If SE decides to half ass another aspect like not doing a full cross class block, the content will be a cake walk once again due to classes still being jacks of all trades.

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Originally Posted by Richard

If they are starting the cross class blocking (before jobs) in 1.18 then they need to do it completely. If you take away Cure III from all jobs except CON then you need to take away Cure I-II as well. There can be no compromise. That would defeat the purpose of trying to specialize classes. If SE decides to half ass another aspect like not doing a full cross class block, the content will be a cake walk once again due to classes still being jacks of all trades.

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Not really as Classes without a Job will be able to cross class in a limited fashion but I imagine Job's will have even further restrictions in place possibly removing the ability to cross class skills at all, or maybe limiting them to only the current class/weapon type you are using IF they are going to allow each class to use multiple weapon types.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

Not really as Classes without a Job will be able to cross class in a limited fashion but I imagine Job's will have even further restrictions in place possibly removing the ability to cross class skills at all, or maybe limiting them to only the current class/weapon type you are using IF they are going to allow each class to use multiple weapon types.

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Back to the battle reform blueprint:

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Classes

Actions will undergo major revisions, along with both the underlying mechanics and conditions.

By major revisions, not only do we mean the tweaking of effects and potency of existing actions - we will work from the ground up to redesign and reassign actions based on clearly identified class roles.

We will also make a number of changes as part of our reexamination of how actions are equipped and the character requirements for doing so. First, actions learned by each class will be set to the action bar by default when playing as that class. Also, we will be making some actions settable on any class, while other "class-defining" actions obtained at higher ranks will be usable only by that class.

Jobs

The job system - that series-defining trademark - will be implemented in FINAL FANTASY XIV (details such as specific jobs TBA). Quests to unlock each job will become available once you have reached a certain rank in the corresponding class.
Rather than being advanced versions of classes, we would like players to think of jobs as specialized playing styles optimized for partying. While playing as a particular job will render you unable to equip certain actions of other classes, you will be compensated with access to exclusive actions, which can be acquired through quests.

In practice, players will find the existing classes effective when playing solo or in certain party setups. Jobs, however, will shine in party situations where specific skill sets are demanded. Now, you didn’t hear this from me, but there are also rumors circulating that quests for obtaining job-exclusive equipment are also in the pipes.
We at the development team are currently hard at work on the job system, and expect to have details to share with you soon.

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So, it is safe to say that yes, we will still be able to equip cross-class skills. But not as many as at present. Jobs will not completely remove the ability to do so.

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Originally Posted by Lerris

Back to the battle reform blueprint:


So, it is safe to say that yes, we will still be able to equip cross-class skills. But not as many as at present. Jobs will not completely remove the ability to do so.

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Well that is pretty much what I said, good to know that at least something will still be able to cross class but it might turn out to be just weapon skills.

Let Melees equip SOME BASIC Melee Skills, and Mages equip SOME BASIC Mage skills/spells.

That means that melees wouldn't be able to equip any spell (cure, stonesking, spikes, etc...).
When a Gladiator Specializes itself into Paladin, he will learn Cure, and then he will be able to equip it's own Cure Spell.

That, or just let every class equip only Tier 1 skill/spells.

Mor than that it will be bad : /