Class Cap in 50 Bracket

Well, since SE wishes to go with 'easy' fixes - why not do the same idea here: Disallow any non-job classes (IE: LNC, MRD, PUG, THM etc) to queue in 50 brackets. This will help solve inbalances without nerfing Jobs. This way, for example, WAR won't have to receive any significant nerfs whilst dealing with the overtuned MRD.

I'm sure it was not intentional for non-job classes to be outperforming their successors.

easier fix is to make all the pvp gear job specific

You know something's wrong when a basic class is more viable in PvP than the advanced job.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

You know something's wrong when a basic class is more viable in PvP than the advanced job.

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lol you are funny man. your job is a strict specialization,while your classes is a is more lenient in it specialization. for example, the War tank soul gem specialized in TANKING. all its abilities is for reducing incoming damage or taking preventive steps to not die after a hit.all the cross skills war has ties into tanking. the mrd class, however, has far more dps options due to all the cross skills it can equipped.it is still a tank, but isnt tie down like war because it class isnt fully a strict tank.in the future Mrd will get a dps job to specialize in damage dealer, while maintaining alot of it tanking abilities. does this mean the future mrd dps is broken? no of course not.

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Originally Posted by LongNu

Well, since SE wishes to go with 'easy' fixes - why not do the same idea here: Disallow any non-job classes (IE: LNC, MRD, PUG, THM etc) to queue in 50 brackets. This will help solve inbalances without nerfing Jobs. This way, for example, WAR won't have to receive any significant nerfs whilst dealing with the overtuned MRD.


I'm sure it was not intentional for non-job classes to be outperforming their successors.

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you are also funny as hell. the reason why war is outplayed by mrd is simply due to more crosskills...that is it. a gld can be better than pld in dps and so forth for all classes without a dps job.i mean, if you want to ban base classes, you should just go for broke and ban all cross skills

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Originally Posted by LongNu

Yes, we know it's because of cross-class skills, doesn't refute anything I've said. WAR pales compared to MRD in PvP. PLD, on the other hand, does not to GLD. Neither does DRG to LNC.

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umm what i said does refute you. the war and mrd is the same except if the war tank is tie down because if we use defiance, that a 33% dmg decrease and all of main abilities is tie into defiance. mrd, on the other hand, have all the damage increase cross skills to improved it dps. and LOL, a gld w/ cross skills is SOOOOOOOO much better than pld. i run a premade with a gld that owns hard. you dont have to lie to prove your point. we get it, you just dont want mrd in lvl 50 pvp.

and i see you ignore the first part about jobs being strict specialization. that tell me you have no interest in a actual debate, but just want to impose what you think and damn all other logic. ok

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Originally Posted by astrobearthe2nd

you are also funny as hell. the reason why war is outplayed by mrd is simply due to more crosskills...that is it. a gld can be better than pld in dps and so forth for all classes without a dps job.i mean, if you want to ban base classes, you should just go for broke and ban all cross skills

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Yes, we know it's because of cross-class skills, doesn't refute anything I've said. WAR pales compared to MRD in PvP. PLD, on the other hand, does not to GLD. Neither does DRG to LNC.

You are a joke if you think GLD with full access to cross skill is stronger than PLD. Even Sword Oath beats out most stuff you can cross, not to mention Spirit Within. And Cover and Hallowd Ground which do wonders. Problem with MRD being strong is due to having Maim on top of Berserk. Pushing all CDs a MRD is capable of dealing 97% more damage on average not accounting Internal Release and Straight shot.

As someone who played MRD to Rank 30 before switching to BLM and now going 40 PvP Monk. I'd say MRDs are the single class that can almost reliably carry a team with gear. My server's penta-melded MRD Rank 30 (Miyabi Jeanmarie - Carbuncle) can pretty much roll over anything in one combo. Gladiator can never hope to achieve that level of carry. What a Paladin can do is annoy the shit out of people and do 12 seconds lockdown kills, pop Hallowed Ground if you think people is going to CC you during your 12 seconds stun. And lets not forget Flash Blind which is very strong when guarding your healer paired with cover.

We just need some ranks... r30 Ranked Matches with two options: SOLO queue or 4s queue. Until this we'll keep watching lucky games or unfair grinder playstyle gamers.

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Originally Posted by astrobearthe2nd

and i see you ignore the first part about jobs being strict specialization. that tell me you have no interest in a actual debate, but just want to impose what you think and damn all other logic. ok

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How can one debate with someone who is unable to even perform correct sentence structure? We know you want MRD to remain FOTM but man, could you be less obvious?

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Originally Posted by TaneshimaPopura

You are a joke if you think GLD with full access to cross skill is stronger than PLD. Even Sword Oath beats out most stuff you can cross, not to mention Spirit Within. And Cover and Hallowd Ground which do wonders. Problem with MRD being strong is due to having Maim on top of Berserk. Pushing all CDs a MRD is capable of dealing 97% more damage on average not accounting Internal Release and Straight shot.

My server's penta-melded MRD Rank 30 (Miyabi Jeanmarie - Carbuncle) can pretty much roll over anything in one combo. Gladiator can never hope to achieve that level of carry. What a Paladin can do is annoy the shit out of people and do 12 seconds lockdown kills, pop Hallowed Ground if you think people is going to CC you during your 12 seconds stun. And lets not forget Flash Blind which is very strong when guarding your healer paired with cover.

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Pretty much this. PLD is excellent for what it does. I'd never take a GLD over that and it's as you said, concerning MRD - it's far too overtuned.

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Originally Posted by LongNu

Pretty much this. PLD is excellent for what it does. I'd never take a GLD over that and it's as you said, concerning MRD - it's far too overtuned.

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The problem is that you have to give up useful PLD abilities if you go GLD. Forcing someone to queue as WAR is forcing them play as a gimped MRD that can use Inner Beast once a minute. The problem with WAR is that not only does it have abilities that are weak in PVP, but it has access to only one decent PVP cross class ability(Internal Release). If Bards didn't have access to LNC CC abilities they would go as ARC also.

If you think MRD is too strong and want to force people to go as WAR then you need to make the WAR crystal useful in PVP.

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Originally Posted by Telepathic

If you think MRD is too strong and want to force people to go as WAR then you need to make the WAR crystal useful in PVP.

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It's not? I've seen Warrage 2v1 people before and crit for over 2600. I think it's just fine if you ask me. People are too used to the absurdity of MRD.

LNC and PUG simply don't exist.
ARC may exist now that Foe is worthless.
THM may also for a focused support player to sacrifice Flare.

MRD exists as a consequence of game design. WAR has nothing but tanking abilities in a game mode where they take next to no damage and are almost never focused. MRD has access to so many great skills otherwise barred to him (Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, EfaE, etc.) and can output obscene damage and control over a single target. The choice here is obvious.

The only way to fix this imbalance is to drastically alter the meta and make it so tanks are tanking damage instead of masquerading as a third DPS. Like I suggested in an earlier thread: taunts like Flash/Overpower and Provoke forcing target/damage onto the tank would change it so all of the Warrior's job abilities have validity.

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Originally Posted by LongNu

I've seen Warrage 2v1 people before and crit for over 2600.

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Those are the Inner Beast crits of a rank 30 Warrior, most times with Full Swing applied.

The tradeoff in removing your soul crystal is staying power (WAR) versus raw damage and utility (MRD). An extra Inner Beast every minute still pales in comparison to the sustained damage of an equivalently geared MRD.

mrd are very cd oriented just use your CC propely against them

Nice thread title trying to hide an obvious whine.

I wouldnt count on a pvp rework for WAR. They just had one in PvE in the very version we're playing right now. And a rework would be needed. The 5 stack Wrath thing would be absolutely horrible unless IB and steel cyclone (thats about all that Defiance gives you over not using it) get some crazy effects to them. Unchained is pretty weird for pvp as it gives you the same damage as simply not using Defiance, in exchange for all wrath stacks. Unnerfing your damage for a hp buff you dont need.

A simple short sighted change like you imply would just break a class. Not to mention preventing future diversity in the pvp scene. I would prefer if you could come up with something constructive, something other than ironically swinging a giant 2h axe through the marauder class. I can try.

-Better cross class skills.

-Faster Wrath stacking would be needed. (an extra stack for critting or fun stuff like that)

-Inner Beast should apply a dmg debuff on the target instead of a -dmg taken self buff.

-Steel Cyclone could get nice synergy with that aoe stun/knockback skill we got that sounds like yesterdays burrito when used, forgot the name. A +dmg taken debuff perhaps? That would give some more use to the weird 'increase potency of your aoe stun' pvp trait. Pacify?

-Unchained could be some immunity to Heavy/Bind thing that other classes have access to. We are so easily kited and CC'd its insane how i'm allowed to run free all the time.

-Defiance.. the big one. I know its the thing that allows us to get Wrath stacks but it would be cool if its usable on others, sort of like Cover. Problem is that increasing max hp doesnt actually heal unless theres a heal attached, and the aforementioned Wrath stacks. The 25% dmg decrease is just so huge something big has to be done here. You're still stuck with a huge damage deficit with these changes, whereas a PLD can press his button and do móre damage.

I would like the choice of a more tanky playstyle. But i do not wish to trample over an existing or undiscovered or even not yet implemented class to do so.

And i just thought of something really simple: having Defiance simply increase damage in pvp, instead of decrease. Up to an acceptable point. After all the point of the Wolves' Den is not to survive hits from a giant dragon, but to cleave your enemies in tween.

Sorry longnu i disagree on this one

all the pros go glad for the hawks eye glory

@ Warrage...

No sure if you are serious. I've never lost a straight up fight with a Warrior. In fact, if I fought against a Warrior with Defiance on my HP doesn't drop while his does. No matter how you look at it Inner Beast is only a 14 potency attack. Why? Taking the case scenario of Turning on Defiance, Infuriate then Inner Beast. Problem is you cannot turn of Defiance for another 10 seconds. So say you take the maximum DMG combo and 3 auto-swings. To which all suffer the 33% DMG reduction. Sure if it was still on the 2.0 model where you get 300% HP back its good. But 100% DMG we're looking at most 1.4k CD with crit on Ilvl90s.

Meanwhile, the MRD is going to smash your face in with Straight shot 10% more Crit rate, make you hit like a wet noodle with Virus. Have invigorate to Stun > hit > Sprint away > Invigorate and re-engage when stun is ready or more potent CDs are up. Nothing in the Warrior tanking tools will beat the things he is able to cross over.

@Dusty

You're going to get CC'ed all over as a Gladiator with no Hallowed Ground, one trick pony that is easily countered when someone on the enemy team takes the initiative to CC. Besides stun locking with Hallowed Ground up and do a Full Swing > Glory > Spirit Within hits like a truck. You may not be removing Attunement but you sure as hell removing his Protect. It's the end for you when you stand longer than 8 seconds with a Range DPS, Fetter Wards Melee and The PLD on you.

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Originally Posted by TaneshimaPopura

In fact, if I fought against a Warrior with Defiance on my HP doesn't drop while his does.

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you're oblivious and haven't played against a real Warrior

and sarcasm is hard to detect, apparently

@ bbt

I don't even know really sometimes. You do see Gladiators in PvP from time to time. I've seen enough of you guys posting game results with Warriors in them which hardly worth any salt against a competent MRD. So pray do tell me what the hell can a REAL Warrior do to out DPS a MRD? You only have Inner Beast with penalty attached whereas MRD has cross abilities with no downside.

I'm not oblivious you're just kidding yourself to think otherwise. Heck even PvE itself it has been proven that MRD does more damage than a WAR both in optimal circumstances. A freaking competent MRD can kill you within 7 seconds flat. Even without CD they can burst you down in under 10 seconds without Raging Strike.

One of FFXIV's biggest selling points is the armory system which allows customization of the different classes and using them how you see fit. This isn't PvE, there are no set "roles". The system is working as intended and I love it honestly, it adds depth to an otherwise bland system.

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Originally Posted by TaneshimaPopura

You only have Inner Beast with penalty attached whereas MRD has cross abilities with no downside.

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Where do you get your math? Damage dealt is reduced by 25% when in stance, not 33%. Inner Beast is 300 potency and not subject to the damage penalty. Inner Beast is what defines a Warrior - it's the sole reason they're of any worth or even novelty in the arena.

The point I'm trying to push is that Warrior has unparalleled staying power. They can sit in Defiance cycling Inner Beasts and come out ahead versus most classes, and guaranteedly so against melee. 1v1, 1v2, sometimes even more against a spent/weakened team. The damage is not negligible when the Warrior is healing with on-demand burst and you're not. That 1200+ damage IB brought you to 60% and healed more than 40% of the WAR's HP. And oh look, he Infuriated and can do it again.

@bbt

Seriously go read up PvE forums sometimes will you? It is reducing your DMG by 25% but you could be doing 33% more, You know why prior to 2.1 threat generation was shithouse? Cause you reduce DMG done by 33% but only give a 50% threat increase.

Sure Inner Beast has 300 potency, but did you forget you have to turn Defiance up for 10 freaking seconds? Like I've said best case scenario you do a BB combo and 3 auto attacks all when you could have done 33% more without Defiance. 1200 DMG IB is on crit only, Heal for 40% of the WAR's HP? Wait... so you're saying you have 3k HP only? Ilvl 70 MRDs have 4.2k HP Ilvl 90s have 4.6k. If I'd wanted heal Storm Path would have done a better job with around 300-400 HP heal.

Push that Defiance off slower and you'd lose even more. Really... If Inner Beast was still 300% Healing I'd understand but as it currently stands. It's nothing more than a sack of shiet in PvP. Also this math doesn't even apply for how Defiance takes away 5% of your Maim buff, 12.5% Attack Power from your Berserk. Which will total to about another 12%. Thus putting you on a 48% DMG difference against a non Cross class skilled MRD. While you're clapping your hands on 1.2k beefed Crit Inner Beast, that MRD would have run around doing 1.8-2k Butcher Blocks with everything up and 1.1k Butcher Block Crits with ZERO CDs.

You don't kill a MRD/WAR/PLD. You hard CC them, Bind, Heavy, Sleep. A functional MRD/PLD/WAR is only as functional as how good his healer is at dispelling those statuses, and WHM worth their salt would Heavy/Repose you rather than healing through the DMG.

Edit + : Oh yeah I also forgot to add Full Swing... Which you guessed it widens the DMG gap to almost 61%.

Also Pro tip + Edit : When shit does go down with you alone facing adversities of 1-2 enemies. Storm Path and Blood Bath is your go to skill.... No freaking Inner Beast for god's sake...

i really don't care to make sense of your half-baked theorycrafting and imaginary numbers

fact stands that a berserked IB>IB can heal a Warrior to full health. that 1200 hit took away your HP and added the same amount to the Warrior's pool, if you don't feel that is significant then you truly are oblivious

@ bbt

This ain't half baked it is already proven in the Warrior Tanking forums and it is not me who did the math. You're even stupid to have Defiance up that long to get 5 stack first then double IB. You will never come close in the overall output of a MRD. You are delusional. I've did my fare share of research and practical. While you "think" you do clearly you aren't when the math proofs otherwise.

While you take that 1200 HP. The MRD can get more HP from Bloodbath and Storm Path and deal more damage which BTW is dealing 50% more than you are doing to totally negate your pathethic heal. Seriously, you're making yourself look like a fool. Lets just do that silly arguement in YOUR math simple for your simpleton mind to comprehend.

1000 DMG on WAR and MRD
Maim Buff + 20%
Berserk +30% DMG (50% Attack Power will be around this much)
Raging Strike +20%

WAR DMG 1500 MRD DMG 1700
Defiance Penalty (Just to fucking appease you 25% reduction)
WAR DMG 1125 MRD DMG 1700
Inner Beast DMG 4500

Rotation to Double Inner Beast
HS>Maim>SE>HS>BS>BB>HS>BS>IB>IB Time Lapse = 10 Skillx 2.5s = 25s
Auto attacks = 8
Total Potency = Skill + Auto Swings = 150 + 190 + 270 + 150 + 200 + 280 + 150 + 200 + 640 = 2230 Potency
1,125 DMG x 22.3 + ( 4500 x 2) = 25087 DMG
Total Healing = 9000 Heal

MRD Rotation:
HS > M > SE > HS > M > SP > HS > M > SP > BS
Auto Attacks = 8
Total Potency = 2580 Potency
1700 DMG x 25.8 = 43860 DMG
MRD is doing the LOWEST DMG Combo and Healing for 250 Potency
Which is 4250 HP Healed
Deficit of DMG to Heal from Bloodbath = (43860-25087)x 0.25 = 4693
Total Healing = 8943 Heal

Further Edit:
WAR Potency = 2830
MRD Potency = 2580
DMG variance in favor of MRD= 18773
HP deficit on WAR = 9773

So now freaking tell me Mr. BBT. How are you going to back up YOUR claim.