A solution to the Crafting/Gathering/Economy crisis.

By now, most of us are familiar with these quotes

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

Greetings,

There are currently no plans to add any end-game style content for Disciples of the Hand.

Once free company housing becomes a bit more widespread we expect the demand for furniture to increase, and as the maximum item level is increased, we will of course be introducing new recipes to create higher-level items.

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

Confirmed with Disciple of the Hand lead

Currently there are no plans to add any new low/mid level crafting recipes.
We designed FFXIV so that gear obtained from dungeons is more effective than crafted items.

For their first class, players can gain equipment from the main quests so we don't think they should face any problems. But we believe there are other chances to use low-level gear, such as creating materia or equipping them when leveling a second class.

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From this, it looks as though crafting is dead-in-the-water as dungeon gear is far more plentiful, free, and quickly horded by players for leveling their other classes.



But there is a way to revive the crafting and gathering jobs, and it involves a type of gear that appeared near the end of FFXIV 1.0 (and was subsequently removed in ARR):


Class-Exclusive Gear.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/d65c2e117...o9_r1_1280.jpg

Simply introduce (and/or modify) recipes from iLvl30 - iLvl90 that are meldable with higher stat caps, but are only Class-Exclusive (that is, Jobs cannot equip them).



This accomplishes several things that are sorely needed in the game:

1. The 'Armory System' will regain relevance by giving Classes an actual role in endgame.
2. Players will find more enjoyment experimenting with the cross-class skills sandbox for endgame content.
3. More people will focus on the 1-50 content in order to unlock more cross-class skills.
4. Gatherers and Crafters will have a new market to work within without disrupting the dungeon-based gear progression for jobs.
5. It opens the door for more rare crafting material drops from dungeons, bosses, Treasure Hunts, Beastman Quests, and Gathering (ie 'bloody' items, 'abjurations', etc.)
6. A brand new avenue for the materia market.

Potential issues:

1) Balancing - most content is balanced around the Job system, not Classes.

The classes are likely the baseline for job balancing, so this might not be a real problem.

2) Inventory/Armory chest space - things are already a bit tight.

A real concern for players with most jobs/classes capped and implementation would have to be paired with improved storage space.

3) Players ignoring endgame content in favor of crafted items

This can an be counter-acted by:
A) restraining the designs of Class Exclusive gear to be less flashy/more realistic than Job gear.
B) Using a cursed-abjuration (FFXI) style system for high-level endgame gear (buy the crafted 'cursed' gear, use the abjuration dungeon/primal drop to 'uncurse' it).
C) Class Exclusive recipes are always introduced at -5 vs max iLvl of Job gear. (ie current max iLvl of Job gear is 90 for armor, and 95 for weapons, Max iLvl of Class gear would be 85 for armor and 90 for weapons.)

LOVE this idea as well!

+1

The other bonus to this approach is that it would add a larger visual variety to endgame gear as well. I know I'm tired of seeing Darklight/Myth AF everywhere.

BTW, If you look at the class images in the official site, some of that armor has yet to be released, the other is ilvl70 crafted gear
http://eorzeandiary.com/wp-content/u.../gladiator.png
http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...R_Marauder.png
http://jolstatic.fr/www/captures/974/2/78002.jpg
http://jolstatic.fr/www/captures/974/9/77999.jpg


I wonder if something along these lines might be on the cards already.

Great idea, but if it's something that's easy to craft (like everything else) it'll just flood the MB. :<

You guys really want so much new gears and means to min/max our respective jobs/classes?

You guy really want PS3 to die from its limitations???

I say yes. Great idea. I am also sick and tried of looking at the same stuff, and no craftable armour for me to play around using materia.

This is a "temporary" solution, because it would be exhausted eventually.

A solution would be to remove repair and simply allow gear to disappear or only convert it when it wears out. Substituting gear obtained from dungeons with crafting materials would help alot. Also, making harder to level up would be also help mid-level crafted gear.

Also, I didn't know there was an "crisis" going on. What's the problem exactly? Prices aren't to your liking? So? If you are going to say "Housing", then the problem is in that particular market.

I don't believe that making classes comparable to jobs is any kind of solution as you're just shifting the problem around or delaying it for a few more weeks.

If they want to make craftable i90 recipees, the Armoury system isn't what's stopping them. They could easily make them available for jobs.

Making classes competitive with jobs won't suddenly bring more "experimenting with cross-class skills", as the best skills for each role (tank, DPS, healer) are pretty obvious already.

The real solution to crafting is what you suggest at the end or your post:

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B) Using a cursed-abjuration (FFXI) style system for high-level endgame gear (buy the crafted 'cursed' gear, use the abjuration dungeon/primal drop to 'uncurse' it).

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Which has nothing to do with the the class/job system.

Though I'd add more things to fix crafting:

- all equipment should be meldable. Why on earth endgame dungeon drops can't be melded is simply beyond me (though you'd obviously have to adjust their stats to account for this).
- add new affixes to drops. Some of these new affixes should boost specific abilities. You see those abilities that no one uses because they're complete crap? Imagine if we had affixes on equipment that actually made these abilities desirable?
- some (if not all) endgame equipment should be convertible into materia.
- new materia should be added to the game. This new materia should have the above-mentioned new affixes and these new materia should only be obtainable by converting equipment that have those affixes. Some of the endgame drops that are now convertible should also give materia with special affixes.
- specific fix for potions: give each type of potion an individual timer. Make potion effects last longer, 15 seconds is simply too short, needs to be at least 30-60 seconds (can't be much more than that or they'll just be food).

I think these suggestions would do more for crafting, because at the very least it would be used for melding equipment.

Now, would all this lead to how in FFXI some pieces of equipment were worth millions? No. Because the only way to achieve something like that is to make endgame drops a hell of a lot more rare and have materials also be a lot more rare (or just make overmelding a lot more difficult). So should FFXIV implement something like this? In my opinion, no it shouldn't. I personally don't give a rat's ass if having all crafts at 50 doesn't make you millions of gil. These complaints about the "economy being in ruins" don't mean much to me. I do have a problem with crafting being virtually useless at endgame though. I just want that to be solved.

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Originally Posted by HumsterMKX

I say yes. Great idea. I am also sick and tried of looking at the same stuff

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The only ways to prevent people from all looking the same:

- vanity slots (though I get the feeling that people won't be satisfied by this).
- making builds that require specific pieces of equipment (which would only last until the definitive builds are found and everyone flocked to those).
- making gear rare and take a very long time to acquire, a la FFXI (oh boy, the ****storm something like this would cause).

The only one that would truly fix the problem is the last one, and it wouldn't be a popular thing to implement (I'm completely against it).

Ran out of posts for the day:

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Except they won't. It's been stated that by design, the devs want people to get the best drops from dungeons.

By moving endgame crafted gear to Class-exclusive, it neatly side-steps the issue. It allows the devs to have their cake, and us to eat some too.

As I stated in my OP, the devs had already started down this road in 1.x -- all the crafted iLvl70 weapons were Class-exclusive. Is it merely a coincidence that all the Class profile art and pics feature those crafted iLvl70 weapons in them?

I have no idea why the devs reversed course in ARR. But they need to go back.


A two-tiered system is what is needed, it fits the original design, it adds variety to gear and play-styles, and most importantly, it creates a real end-game market for crafters and gatherers into the future.

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And it's been stated that by design that they want Jobs to be more powerful than classes too. So there's not going to be any i85/i90 class specific gear either.

If we're going to be making conjectures, lets try to actually solve the problem instead of just shifting it around.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

I don't believe that making classes comparable to jobs is any kind of solution as you're just shifting the problem around or delaying it for a few more weeks.

If they want to make craftable i90 recipees, the Armoury system isn't what's stopping them. They could easily make them available for jobs.

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Except they won't. It's been stated that by design, the devs want people to get the best drops from dungeons.

By moving endgame crafted gear to Class-exclusive, it neatly side-steps the issue. It allows the devs to have their cake, and us to eat some too.

As I stated in my OP, the devs had already started down this road in 1.x -- all the crafted iLvl70 weapons were Class-exclusive. Is it merely a coincidence that all the Class profile art and pics feature those crafted iLvl70 weapons in them?

I have no idea why the devs reversed course in ARR. But they need to go back.


A two-tiered system is what is needed, it fits the original design, it adds variety to gear and play-styles, and most importantly, it creates a real end-game market for crafters and gatherers into the future.

I think all three of these posts are of similar vein.

this plus

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...he-hand...pt-1

and

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ems-to-be-dead

Namely that those who are crafting seem to be doing it as a quick check in the box and then stopping. They are not "endlessly enjoying" crafting, the way people are enjoying war and magic. Less crafting means less gathering (although they added the treasure maps to help account for this). So why not fix the problem at the source and now that the game is not so under the 1.0 stigma, work on bringing the balance to the three so you really can enjoy all aspects of the game.

True, and it shows the need for a fix.

It always seemed to me that Materia was better suited for classes anyways..

As far as putting materia slots on all weapons goes, I kind of like that they're not on unique/blue items, as I've always felt that gear of that nature should exist as a 'defined' item that has a distinct identity. That said, they've made even that gear feel generic enough that I wouldn't oppose it too much if they actually did it. I'd rather Blues/Purples actually stand out though. :-/

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Originally Posted by Toranja

A solution would be to remove repair and simply allow gear to disappear or only convert it when it wears out.

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I'd wish the game a painful death, quit, and never look back.

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Except they won't. It's been stated that by design, the devs want people to get the best drops from dungeons.

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Then it is about time that they start to nerf myth gear to ilevel 85. Or boost coil gear to ilevel 95

Why not just remove the vast majority gear quest rewards and have the crafters supply the leveling gear?

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Originally Posted by Celeblhach

Why not just remove the vast majority gear quest rewards and have the crafters supply the leveling gear?

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Players don't want to feel forced to touch crafting. Even if they don't have to, most of them don't want anything to do with it.

I don't see how shifting gear from jobs to classes is going to help. There is a significant stat boost for rolling with your Job that can't be made up for with materia, item stat caps, and cross class skills. Would it make classes more interesting? Maybe.. Will it make crafting more appealing at end game? Not if everyone rolls with their Jobs.

The best idea I have read on here and thought about is being able to make unique items with dungeon drops. Which they do have pre-50. Take this tattered robe and make it a vintage robe, etc. Seems to be the easiest solution to implement for it's effectiveness.

I like this idea as well. I kind of missed when vanya used to be class exclusive and I think it is refreshing that you could focus on classes for end game content rather than for early game...

im more suprised they dont just delete DOL & DOH and abolish gil.

this is just a lobby game then you queue up for things to do, which turn into speedruns.

I've already seen several cases where classes are of use still. For example when in small parties or doing FATEs often the difference between having access to a healing spell can mean life or death. I've lost count how many times during a difficult boss battle in a light party dungeon that the group might have won if we had access to an additional healing spell. Fighting a tough dungeon boss, it's nearly dead. Suddenly the healer wipes, oh crap now we're finished, game over. Wait! That archer has Cure on his hotbar! Archer goes into pseudo heal-mode. It's barely enough but with a quick Limit Break it boosts the group's HP back up a bit. Sliver of life left, final blow by the tank, and win!

By all means classes aren't superior to any situation over jobs but in some cases having or cross-class skills can help you. I frequently solo and when I do I'm Archer over Bard more often than not. The same with something like Pugilist, I'll switch to it over Monk when solo. I still find it as peculiar that class-specific armors no longer exist, they probably saw them getting much less use. As it stands right now I think a lot of the armor is class and job usable. Darklight for example can be used by either and I think Allagan gear is similar. I've strayed off topic now.

What I'd like and want to see is more emphasis put on crafting gear. And actually, on that subject, I'd say no to making dungeon gear meldable. Let's again look at Darklight. Infinitely easier to obtain than the high-end ilvl70 crafted gear. For that you need to get the materials, find a crafter or level a crafting job yourself, synthesize the materials to make one main piece, synthesize that together to make the armor all while hoping you don't blow it up or fail to make a high quality version. Darklight vs crafted is pretty close in comparison, other than crafted can be strengthened even further with materia. But the offset is it's much more difficult and time consuming to obtain over running a few dungeons and getting the tomes right there to buy it. Unless you've got oodles of gil of course, then you can just buy it over working your way to earn it.

While I wouldn't say they should allow melding to armors or weapons that are dungeon/token drops (Like Allagan, Darklight, Relic, etc.) I do believe they should be convertible and offer recoloring. When you graduate from Darklight to Relic, what do you do with that gear now? I have a pair of Darklight Gauntlets of Aiming I replaced with my Gryponskin Bracers. I can't return them to Rowena for my tomes back, I can't convert it into materia, I can't even trade it to my Grand Company for seals. And last I recall I can't even sell it to an NPC for gil. The only option is to throw it away. Nice design SE.

Overall I'd say make dungeon and token-earned gear convertible into materia (When they offer higher tiered materia in the future.) and add in a few more crafting gear selections that could be sub-par to things like Allagan. Crystal Tower. Let this place drop crafting materials you can USE to make modern-day Eorzean versions of the ilvl90 Allagan gear earned from coil runs. It's not as exquisite looking, and the gear is still ilvl80 making that gear still superior in strength. The crafting materials like Crystal Tower's gear, is still on a once-a-week timer but a separate one. Once you've gotten your CT gear drop for the week you can still continue the run looking for the materials. Still iffy on if this can be sold on the market boards or not, but sadly I doubt any of this is something SE will ever consider looking into.

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Originally Posted by Kaizlu

Players don't want to feel forced to touch crafting. Even if they don't have to, most of them don't want anything to do with it.

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Why would they feel forced to touch crafting? They can buy the gear through the auction house. You don't need to craft to make money. If the crafters need to make gear, they need materials. Materials drop from mobs and you can do gathering.

The economy doesn't need new dynamics, it just needs demand. There is virtually no demand right now because the game awards the stuff that's in demand.

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Originally Posted by Celeblhach

Why would they feel forced to touch crafting? They can buy the gear through the auction house. You don't need to craft to make money. If the crafters need to make gear, they need materials. Materials drop from mobs and you can do gathering.

The economy doesn't need new dynamics, it just needs demand. There is virtually no demand right now because the game awards the stuff that's in demand.

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I understand what you're saying, but we had that and people complained. I don't like it but that's how things are - people just want to do dungeons and get their drops from them or with a token system. It's a shame since the new crafting system is pretty good compared to what we had in 1.0 :\

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Originally Posted by Kaizlu

I understand what you're saying, but we had that and people complained. I don't like it but that's how things are - people just want to do dungeons and get their drops from them or with a token system. It's a shame since the new crafting system is pretty good compared to what we had in 1.0 :\

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How about instead of awarding gear, the tokens award a tarnished piece that needs to be upgraded by a crafter?

I believe crafting/gathering professions need more functionality. They play like a class but are boring compared to a DoW or DoM...why? I think the reason is because you get stuck to small area repeating the same actions over and over, that's no fun. Your brain needs to change things up to prevent boredom, you need to make it have more of an involvement, nodes should be based on more than just zone level, but should appear everywhere, you can't mine it if it's not high enough end of story, but I don't have to lock myself to the SE corner of Alamihgo desert to get mythril I shoudl be able to get it anywhere in my journey.

On top of that, Dyes need to be more useful, they NEED to have consumption, they need to have value in a way that makes them useful, ie: everythign should be dyeable(to a point) I can see class gear having a certain theme, but why can't it maintain that theme and still keep it's class flavour (thinking of the red trimmings on a WHM AF suit, etc)

Well for one, people level so fast that gear becomes an afterthought until 50+. Really, who gives a damn about gear before your 45 armor? Unless you're on your very fist job, you have probably accumulated quite an armory without trying.

The things we do need crafted, we can gather/make ourselves thanks to each character (for better or worse) able to max EVERY class/job/role/jellyfish.

Like, limit the number of crafting classes available per character. Every other MMORPG limits these for a reason... so you HAVE to trade and work with others. Encourage the user to not re-sell the gear they get which should encourage the crafter to make more. Materia is one way but it doesn't seem to be enough (atm anyway).

A "style" system which you could use to adjust the individual "look" of your character's attire (while keeping equipped gear stats) based on gear they have in storage/inventory. They would in turn lose the style if it is removed/made into material/traded/eaten.

yes like someone had posted a few pages ago a specialized crafting tier where you have to commit to it and therefore cannot master all aspects and create an industry.

I can understand the idea behind the FF system, one character all roles, I agree with it (i like it) but that only works with battling classes, it seems when it comes to crafting having one character doing everything with no difference between anyone else creates a weird void in a market and individuality.

I for one would welcome having my goldsmith becomes a Master GOldsmith at the sacrifice of not being able to have my other crafting classes able to do so. If it meant being able to create unique gear with a very viable use to it in every aspect present and future.

I find it interesting that in the concept art the Heavy Darksteel torso has no helmet.

2 things:

1) Add a "Request craft" feature (sure it's unreliable, but it's better than just handing over all your mats to the crafter and hope they don't run off with them).

2) Add untradeable materials to dungeons that can be crafted into high level items that are on par with the highest tier of gear.

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Originally Posted by Diadumenos

Like, limit the number of crafting classes available per character. Every other MMORPG limits these for a reason... so you HAVE to trade and work with others.

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I can't agree with this. Crafting exists almost entirely for its own benefit. Opening all of crafting to every player dramatically increases the value of materials involved in and related to leveling crafting. Players who level multiple, let alone every, crafting class to 50 are no doubt in the minority. While the markets, especially the endgame markets, are currently in shambles, that has more to do with the combined double whammy of sky-high free company housing prices and shrinkage of the playerbase, no doubt abetted by the sticker shock of sky-high free company housing prices.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

If it meant being able to create unique gear with a very viable use to it in every aspect present and future.

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But that's not what it means. Plenty of other crafters will be offering the exact same items, and you're right back here complaining, instead of being able to switch to another crafting class because there's some clear gap in supply.