@ WHM who stoneskin whole party

just stop it, most of the time its just wasted anyways.

@ People who tell other people what do do because they don't understand that damage mitigation is never wasted. ^.^

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Originally Posted by Squa

just stop it, most of the time its just wasted anyways.

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Sorry I wasted 24 seconds of your time, next time I'll make sure to cast a Protect on every single party member individually just so they can feel powerful.

Wasted? So in the 30 mins it's active that player is not receiving any damage at all? And how does it hurt doing it? It takes 12-24 seconds. Even as a SCH I make note to SS/Succor before a fight. It's just good practice, wastes no mana and no time.

As a Scholar yourself you should appreciate and see the value in shields.

Mid-battle? If you find time: Knock yourself out, better then sitting there waiting to react.

Edit: Oh, just checked out your lodestone. I get it...Mr.CNJ 15.

Chances are they might be using this as a tool to keep low threat

Stoneskinning everyone mid-fight: possibly a waste of time or MP

Ain't nothing wrong with doing it pre-fight, though

Precasting Stoneskin before a fight is quite simply one of the best things you can do as a WHM.
It lasts 30mins, you're not under any fight enrage timers, nobody is receiving any incoming damage, and your MP is regenerating at a sky-high rate.

Casting Stoneskin mid-fight is highly MP inefficient, but if you're in danger of pulling aggro or you know an attack is coming that has the potential to one-shot your tank, go for it.

Cross-classing Stoneskin is excellent too.
It actually gives PLDs something to do between RoH combos, if I'm in a 4man party with a SCH I've got no problem spamming it on everybody.
(And it's one of the few ways you can noticeably contribute when you're doing CT as a PLD and end up on "tower" duty...)

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Originally Posted by Jarlax

Chances are they might be using this as a tool to keep low threat

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Extremely useful during the Caduceus fight to keep hate down pre-split.

Even if it was true that a whm would waste the time of 7 ppl by doing this - You wasted the time of 8 ppl so far.

Not sure if troll, or doesn't understand basic mechanics.

What are you meant to do anyway while people are preparing for a boss or waiting for everyone to load in? Stare lustily at that Highlander's bottom?

Mm, oh yes, you-

Uh, where was I? Might as well Stoneskin everyone if you're not chainpulling like mad. D:

In most cases we're looking at a shield for 400-450, so it's not useless per se, but I would not call it more valuable than the time to cast it for certain things like wiping on Titan EX when people have food buffs on.

Because if you ss the party with full mp regen its free at the moment of cast. When the first aoe hits it will require one less aoe cure saving the equivalent of one x-ether in mp. Its predictive MP management.

Depends on fight. Most of the time it's a waste, similar to succor pre pull.

Garuda Ex? No thanks.

ifrit Ex? Stoneskin please so we don't get knocked back on first vulcan burst.

Titan HM/Ex? No thanks. You're just wasting my time when it falls off on the first tumult.

T1 Caduceus? Yep.

Turn 2 ADS? Nope.

Turn 4? Nope.

Twintania? Yes, please. It helps the healers quite a bit in the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Rona

Not sure if troll, or doesn't understand basic mechanics.

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Seriously? Another person throwing the word troll around? So lame...

As for the OP, stoneskin is your friend. Whining over the time it takes to give everyone stoneskin, it's just not worth it. Until you understand how the game works, then I can see why it would come across as a waste of time. It's mostly SE's fault, in 1.23b, WHM would use their ability to have 1 spell hit the whole party and bam stoneskin for all and really quickly, but SE got rid of that, so the time waste comes from them, not your party member that was looking out for your best interests by giving you a stoneskin...

Also, they need to bring back Shock Spikes, they got rid of it before reaching the end of 1.23b, so I dunno, 1.19 or 1.16 or whichever, but shock spikes was just perfect for tanks and was a life saver for CNJs that accidentally got hate in battle, it would paralyze mobs that hit you every few seconds. SE removed more spells than they kept and added a few new ones, but all in all, the CNJ class was a lot more interesting before the new team took over FF14 and changed CNJ and THM, merging them while splitting them apart and then removing a ton of their spells. CNJ had it all, all the black magic and all the white magic, while THM was a unique mage, probably closer to a Time Mage than a black mage. There, you just learned something about 1.0 that you didn't know (except you Legacy readers. :) )

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Originally Posted by Avette

In most cases we're looking at a shield for 400-450, so it's not useless per se, but I would not call it more valuable than the time to cast it for certain things like wiping on Titan EX when people have food buffs on.

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WHM Stoneskin is 18% of the Target's Maximum HP.

At endgame, you can expect most classes to be sitting at around 4k-4.5k HP, so 18% of that would be somewhere in the region of 720 to 810 HP. Personally, I'm still lacking a few i90 pieces, and my HP as a PLD is currently 6767 in a party. 18% of that is 1218 HP. That's considerably more than a Cure or Physick cast (I've occasionally seen Cure IIs that heal for less than that!)

Stoneskin helps prevent one-shots, doesn't pull healing aggro and ignores Healing debuffs. It really only has two downsides: Long Cast Time and Large MP Cost. Both those downsides are irrelevant at the start of a fight. It also has a somewhat interesting mechanic in that the benefit it grants is proportional to the Target's stats not the casters. You can be a naked level 36 WHM and still get exactly the same effect out of it as you would fully-i90ed at level 50.

For Titan Ex I'm not sure that you'd get much use out of casting it mid-fight; but that's more to do with all the dodging mechanics of that fight than the skill itself... it can still have its uses occasionally even in Primal battles. To give you an example; on Garuda HM (usually not a tough fight) I've used it before in order to help lesser-geared players live through "Aerial Blast" whenever too many rocks are gone. And on Garuda EM, it can help to mitigate Double "Wicked Wheel"s. And that's not even counting the numerous occasions when a sudden HP buffer is useful during Coil Runs or other endgame dungeons! If you know when gaps in the fight are coming up you'll generally get a chance to pop a SS or two off- as long as you're not hurting for MP it can potentially make things a lot smoother.

Arg, phone wont let me quote.
@Avette - not sure if you using the context of any other class besides WHM using stoneskin but with the WHM trait it's 18% of max HP. So between 700-1600 depending who you use it on. It also stacks with defensive buffs. So if a PLD with 6k HP using CD's to negate 40% damage gets SS then it is worth almost 2k damage. With Shield Oath and Sentinel it's worth 3k damage.

-SCH complaining about shields.

Guys there's a problem here.

You also wanna consider that Stoneskin and Galvanize DO stack. So stoneskin+adlo on tank before pull=1 ( or 2 if adlo crit) less phyisck.

Garuda EX and Titan HM/EX, I would pre-Stoneskin the tanks and melee DDs at least.

Garuda EX, the Stoneskin often lasts long enough on melee DDs that they can survive a Wicked Wheel if they're not using Blood for Blood and the i65+ isn't coming from his/her accessories.

Titan HM/EX, the pre-battle Stoneskin while MP regeneration is high often leads to one less AoE heal during combat, when MP regeneration is weak. Helps me manage my MP and threat. I think it's worth the 30 seconds on a serious try. If we're learning mechanics and do not expect success OR overgeared for HM, then no, screw it.

I do it before fights when people are loading or explaining and pretty much always on the MT before pulls because sometimes odd things happen.

Other than that? WP Boss fight, Garuda EX on MT before wheels.

I do find it kinda silly when people stand around before going in waiting for it.

I always Stoneskin at the start of a dungeon and before every boss fight (with the exception of T2 after the first pull). Doesn't cost MP and saves me a cure or 8 (which DO cost MP).

BTW, just a pair of handy, simple macros for all you stoneskinners out there

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Light Party Stoneskin
/ac "Stoneskin" <1>
/wait 2.6
/ac "Stoneskin" <2>
/wait 2.6
/ac "Stoneskin" <3>
/wait 2.6
/ac "Stoneskin" <4>

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Full Party Stoneskin
/ac "Stoneskin" <1>
/wait 2.6
/ac "Stoneskin" <2>
/wait 2.6
/ac "Stoneskin" <3>
/wait 2.6
/ac "Stoneskin" <4>
/wait 2.6
/ac "Stoneskin" <5>
/wait 2.6
/ac "Stoneskin" <6>
/wait 2.6
/ac "Stoneskin" <7>
/wait 2.6
/ac "Stoneskin" <8>

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Crazy Fighting Stoneskin
/ac "Stoneskin" <mo>
/ac "Stoneskin" <t>
/ac "Stoneskin" <tt>

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Makes life easier

A healers job is to keep the party alive even when you have stupid people in your party. If a dd wants to pull hate at the start then a tank can get hate back with no damage taken kuz SS took it all, but if you heal him then you got hate. If something goes wrong in a fight you got SS to keep someone alive. If you make a wrong step and get bit by an aoe and the tank takes a big hit right then and your both almost dead, who do you heal?

It can be a tough decision to make in a split second, SS would save you that trouble. SS is like insurance because you can't assume everything to be fine. I cast SS in DDs mid fight tank last but usually not at all because he's gonna keep losing it anyway but DDs shouldn't be getting hit anyway unless they are doing something wrong, and I time the last SS on the tank when a pull is done so he's buffed for the next pull.

Using your abilities to their fullest is what good healers do and bad healers don't understand that and get mad. Any healer I've seen that uses SS often had been a good healer. Of course this is all for dungeon runs. On bosses with high aoe I dont SS the group after the first one, unless things like mountain buster are coming or other similar situations. Learn to use it efficiently yourself before you tell others not to use it

I always cast stoneskin on everyone and THEN protect that way everyone stay close and I dont have a desperate DD or Tank rushing to fight. If you dont like to wait can always go as whm and do w/e you want.

SS is one of the most important spells in a WHM's arsenal. Precasting/curing someone makes much easier management when things get dicey. MP cost/efficiency only comes into play in certain situations. But the tradeoff you gain in time (not having to heal them ad hoc) and even MP (if a squishy guy dies and you end up blowing a swiftcast + 700mp on a rez) is immeasurable.

Even during mid fight, I would spam it to all applicable units as long as I have time and if it doesn't drain my tank. For PLDs, it's extremely useful to spam SS on themselves.

I mostly (even on my SCH) stoneskin everyone cos I'm OCD and it annoys the crap out of me to see that one extra defensive buff on just the tank.

Or cos I'm bored while waiting for the fight to start.

And because it helps me know which DPS are the good little boys and girls who dodge and don't pull aggro. I get so happy when I'm halfway through a dungeon and everyone but the tank still has SS up :-)

I find that stone skin helps me dps a lot longer then if I dont use it... But a scholar told me n ot to use stone skin so im totally done using it...

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Originally Posted by Hitome

Titan HM/Ex? No thanks. You're just wasting my time when it falls off on the first tumult.

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Wasting your time stone skinning pre-fight? guess what, it would be an even BIGGER waste of time if I steal hate with that one or two extra Medica(s) and cause people to panic

Ah, sometimes soon people will tell us protect is a waste of time! Wouldn't surprise me though, since people don't seem patient enough to wait for that either...<.<

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Originally Posted by Squa

most of the time its just wasted anyways.

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I really don't understand this statement. How can extra mitigation be wasted when in 9/10 fights AOE or adds hit a DPS or fellow healer?

It can also prevent the squishes getting one shotted.

I'd rather wait 20 seconds or so for everyone to get a Stoneskin than watch a healer waste mp/time on a heal or raise mid battle. If there isn't a WHM in the party I'll help out with the Stoneskins on my PLD. 10% mitigation is better than no mitigation.

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

Wasting your time stone skinning pre-fight? guess what, it would be an even BIGGER waste of time if I steal hate with that one or two extra Medica(s) and cause people to panic

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You're one of those useless WHMs who starts casting medica 2 right after a big AoE when whispering dawn is already on everyone and everyone is at 85%, aren't you? If you pull aggro on Titan Ex with one medica, your tanks are doing something wrong.

Also, know what shroud is? No? Sounds about right.

Edit: My apologies: looks like you don't do Titan Ex.

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Originally Posted by Squa

just stop it, most of the time its just wasted anyways.

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^ this complainer here

its why we cant have nice things D:

I cast stoneskin on the full party between fights. I still end up with 100% mp. So it's hardly a waste. As for recasting during a fight... that depends. I never recast on the tank until the fight is nearly over so he/she has it during the next pull. This is mainly so there is a damage buffer so the tank can get agro before I need to start healing. Other party members, again it's a buffer for when they take a hit. Sometimes it doesn't happen for a while, but it helps me stay focused on the tank, and other members won't take too much damage before I can focus on them. On a fight like Titan, I pre cast then forget about it. The fight becomes too busy to worry about it after it starts. Sure it doesn't help much. But you still start with full mp, so why not?

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Originally Posted by Hitome

You're one of those useless WHMs who doesn't look to see if whispering dawn is on or succor is being casted by the other healer, aren't you? If you pull aggro on Titan Ex with one medica, your tanks are doing something wrong.

Also, know what shroud is? No? Sounds about right.

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Please read. I said "one or two extra Medica(s)" When in Titan HM I'm juggling 3rd to 5th place agro and I never need shroud to reset hate, I'd feel it's better used for the MP regen. Please don't assume my playstyle when you >CLEARLY< don't know. The attitude you're giving off is not helping either

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

Please read. I said "one or two extra Medica(s)" When in Titan HM I'm juggling 3rd to 5th place agro and I never need shroud to reset hate, I'd feel it's better used for the MP regen. Please don't assume my playstyle when you >CLEARLY< don't know. The attitude you're giving off is not helping either

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I really hate WHMs like you. You're a healer who doesn't coordinate/watch the other healer to perform complimentary actions. Instead, taking it upon yourself to do the work of both healers.

As a SCH, the first thing I do on phase 1 tumults is cast succor. This means all you need to do is cast medica. Do you medica twice like an incompetent WHM? Why would I assume anything about your playstyle when you've told me exactly what you do.

He tumults several times during phase 1 which can all be handled with 1 medica and 1 succor or 1 medica from each WHM or two succors. Not once do you have to cast more than medica 1 before post-heart death.

I would really like another trait for WHMs that allows you to cast an AoE version of stoneskin outside of combat: similar to the SCH version in FF11. When doing multiple attempts on a learning fight like Titan Ex, it's such a waste of time to wait for stoneskin when tanks never have aggro issues and the first tumult can be covered by one medica and one succor/rous'd whispering dawn.

I stopped doing it except for MT during 8-man content. As OP says, however impolitely he may have so done, it is a huge time sink, and frequently unnecessary. I had someone tell me to SS during Garuda EX, and I told them my cure III was more than enough to deal with the aoe heal need for the first part of that fight. I'd rather cast two Cure IIIs up front to heal when needed than to cast 8x stoneskin every time we start the fight. Nothing wrong with that.

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Originally Posted by Hitome

*teeth and fangs*

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You're really assuming things here. In Titan HM, not every tank is super geared, what if you're helping a tank get their relic? Do you know how hard it is for a tank that isn't relic to keep aggro from a fully geared healer? That stoneskin in the beginning allows the WHM to skip a Medica (assuming theres a SCH in the party who can Succor it) effectively lowering their hate in the beginning considerably. What if you're solo healing? (Which is very possible for a geared WHM to do, if there's a Bard in the party) That stoneskin prevents a Medica, you can instead wait until the next tumults or jump. Solo healing WHMs draw MASSIVE aggro, and every bit counts. But you wouldn't know, considering your WHM isn't 50 yet.

Get your WHM to 50 before you start trashing WHMs. Unfortunately, we actually have a mana bar and have to manage hate unlike Scholars.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

I stopped doing it except for MT during 8-man content. As OP says, however impolitely he may have so done, it is a huge time sink, and frequently unnecessary. I had someone tell me to SS during Garuda EX, and I told them my cure III was more than enough to deal with the aoe heal need for the first part of that fight. I'd rather cast two Cure IIIs up front to heal when needed than to cast 8x stoneskin every time we start the fight. Nothing wrong with that.

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Except for the fact that you effectively just wasted 1000 MP vs waiting a mere 24 seconds to cast SS on everyone before the fight for 0 MP.

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Originally Posted by JonFarron

Except for the fact that you effectively just wasted 1000 MP vs waiting a mere 24 seconds to cast SS on everyone before the fight for 0 MP.

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Where's your proof? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Let me walk you through my logic here:

Fight starts. 15 seconds later, she AOEs. One Cure III gets everyone up to full. Nothing more to do until after she jumps. Mana is up to full.

Let me clarify my point a little: if there is a clear benefit to fully casting SS on the whole party beforehand, and I am not in a DF pug, I will do it. Otherwise, no thanks. I don't really have issues with mana management, but that might be my play style. If anything hurts my mana stores for that fight, it's casting Holy a few times on plumes.

Anyway, thanks for discrediting my point of view. Good job!

EDIT: Sorry, I just refuse to spam a pointless pre-heal that shouldn't even be a single target buff. I'd rather SS cost 3x as much and AOE everyone. Anyway, I use it situationally in a fight, such as before sisters pop on OT/MT and before wheel. But, sorry, I am not going to spend 30 seconds target/casting SS on people when there really is no need, or the group is likely going to wipe over and over anyway. SS won't do anything to avoid learning curve wipes.

Why am I defending myself? I am doing it right.

IMO, stoneskin is never a waste of time to cast pre-fight. You will never know what might happen during fight. Maybe stoneskin will save everyone in a dire situation, you might never know.

Better be safe than sorry is my way of life.

I am a SCH and stone skin before the fight. Hack, i even stone skin during the fight just because i can. 10% on a WAR is a lot of damage mitigation and i do it during fight transition. If you are just being lazy not to stone skin and instead label it as unnecessary and a waste of time, maybe being a healer is not for you.

Those saying it's a waste of time just don't get the first rule of healing: Better safe than sorry.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

Where's your proof? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Let me walk you through my logic here:

Fight starts. 15 seconds later, she AOEs. One Cure III gets everyone up to full. Nothing more to do until after she jumps. Mana is up to full.


EDIT: Sorry, I just refuse to spam a pointless pre-heal that shouldn't even be a single target buff. I'd rather SS cost 3x as much and AOE everyone. Anyway, I use it situationally in a fight, such as before sisters pop on OT/MT and before wheel. But, sorry, I am not going to spend 30 seconds target/casting SS on people when there really is no need, or the group is likely going to wipe over and over anyway. SS won't do anything to avoid learning curve wipes.

Why am I defending myself? I am doing it right.

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Except: The only target that should need any cure at all from you as a WHM (assuming there's a SCH in the party) is the MT. The SCH's healing does more than enough and you can, get this, use that 1000 MP you say will 'regen before I need it anyway' in CS DDing Garuda.

Not only that: How many times have you missed someone with that Cure III. Because if you cast it right before she disappears, Melee and Tanks are out of range, if you cast it when people stack and hide...very rarely does everyone stack on the same side. (which yeah shame on them, but healers adjust to the party)

Oh and as to calling it a pointless preheal: I can actually keep my WAR tank friend alive on many low-heal things in full Cleric's stance with just SS's. Single-target 18% damage mitigation is nothing to sneeze at. And the pro to SS is unless I am missing something, unlike your cures, it's not effected by CS. So you can even cast it without having to go in and out of CS like you do with a cure. Does this work for everything? No. But it can eat a crap-ton of damage you're not giving it any credit for.

And no, making it party wide would either gimp it or give WHM something too similar to SCH's tool kit. It's fine single target.

As to the attitude: 'well they're learning they're just gonna wipe anyway' How would you like it if DD's and Tanks took that attitude. Oh, it doesn't matter if I get out of the AoE damage, we're just practicing anyway...Oh who cares if I did the proper rotation...wear the proper gear...use my Defense cooldowns effectively.... Part of the learning curve IS knowing how much damage is going to happen to everyone in each phase of the battle. SE gives WHMs (and SCH's) a tool that helps them keep their hate low and basically gives every party member a 'free hit'. Why wouldn't you take a couple seconds (time when people are chatting anyway) to just prebuff the inevitable?


If it was so bloody pointless, every SCH and tank I know wouldn't be casting it so much.


And yes, in dungeons I have SS on the tank before every pull...every time, last mob has 10-15% health I'm casting SS so tank without missing a beat can grab next set, Why? Because that gives me about 10 seconds where I can Repose/DD/virus or chill until they need a heal. I have SS on the party before they enter the boss room in every dungeon as well...again pre-casting during last mob before entrance's dead.

So maybe, instead of saying it's a time-eater or wasteful spell, learn to time your usage better.