New Class/Job in 2.2?

I may be jumping the gun here, but with the 2.2 update being centered around Maelstrom as a Key word and the Lord of Whorls being unleashed, I think our Sea Fairing Grand Company is going to share with us her secrets of the Corsair and Pirate/Buccaneer. Pirates plague the area around Limsa Lominsa and pirates who have given up their ways are the farmers of various locations across La Noscea.

With that, the hints for the update so far...Am I too far off to assume the possibility of the Sea Fairing Jobs and Classes making an appearance?

Maybe I'm just looking into it too much and getting hopeful over nothing, but it feels like the devs have been dropping several hints that the next class, likely to be introduced in 2.2, will be the Musketeer. I just hope it's more than just me being overly optimistic...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DarkStar

Maybe I'm just looking into it too much and getting hopeful over nothing, but it feels like the devs have been dropping several hints that the next class, likely to be introduced in 2.2, will be the Musketeer. I just hope it's more than just me being overly optimistic...

---

I'm reading the same thing in all honestly. I said Corsair because that's what they were called in FFXI. Basically its a gunner type class which is awesome in any form its put. Since Maelstrom is the key word and Merlweb uses guns its where I came to my conclusion from. That and pirates cause I like Pirates and they'd be a pretty good Starter Class for a Corsair/Musketeer Job. At least in my opinion they would be. Can't see them releasing their Class without the extended Job.


I'm wondering if Musketeer/Corsair will be a DPS class. Seems like an obvious choice since a Ranged Tank is kinda dumb. Wonder if they'd overtake the Bard as Ranged DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

....

---

Considering the Musketeer guild has been in the game since 1.0, it's less a matter of IF it will get implemented, but WHEN. I seem to recall Yoshi-P saying that new classes and jobs could be introduced in major patches, rather than having to wait for expansions to come out, so it's entirely reasonable to think that Musketeer could come out of 2.2. Corsair being the job to the Musketeer class is a popular suggestion and could work as a ranged support DD, similar to the Bard. I doubt one would ever overshadow the other, because that's just bad game design.

we can see what we want, personally i see more pointer to ninja than musketeer... CT armor, minion pet based on the ninja's dog interceptor from FF6 and the recent event talking of the Far East.

but i wait for it, then i see the sign i want.

nothing was done for say musketeer are coming, the guild was already there in V1 and nothing point in this direction, nor the team need another ranged dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by silentwindfr

...

---

While Yoshi-P has said that he wants to include a "Rogue-like" class, a perfect way to bring in the classic Thief and Ninja jobs, Musketeer as a gun-wielding class has been something SE has wanted to do since Day 1. If the general consensus that "Maelstrom" means more stuff for Limsa is on the horizon (pun intended) is true, it's a safe bet that Musketeer, with it's Limsa Lominsan-based guild that's currently closed, is the next class that's going to be made available and not the Rogue-like one. You can't quite conclude that a new class is coming out based on seemingly unrelated bits of happenstance, over something more concrete like the Musketeer class already having a guild and a presence in game. Plus, the Far East has pretty much always been the aesthetics of the new years event, which is why the helmets for them are all designed in the style of ancient samurai kabuto (their helmets).

In addition, we really do need another ranged DPS class, which I should point out is different from casters. Right now, there's two jobs for every archetype in the game. For tanks: PLD and WAR. For healers: WHM and SCH. For casters: BLM and SMN. For melee DD: DRG and MNK. However, BRD is the only available ranged DD, which is a hole in the current pattern of two jobs per combat archetype, and one that the OCD in some of us would like to see filled.

Or maybe we'll see both? Musketeer -> Corsair, Scout -> Ninja / Thief. Boom added a ranged and 2 melee DPS jobs. So long as NIN isn't a tank in this game, should be good.

personally musketeer, even if i want to see it... it's maybe the class that i want the less, many other jobs can be added for increase the gameplay of the game.

indeed the musketeer guild was there since V1, indeed it was planned to be the next added... when it was tanaka leading. when yoshida have take the lead, it have fall back a lot. (soo much that arcanist was added first) but what it will bring to the game? what mechanic and role will he fill? that the true question we must ask there.

Rogue-like class can bring far more actually, what we don't have in the game it's a true debuffer. everyone can debuff a bit, but no jobs can cripples the enemy and i feel it's missing. other point add a ranged class now, will simply make the melee jobs life horrible... it's already to the point where you bring 1 melee dps only for the LB and get only bard, black mage or summoner. in the case of the monk it's worst, people tend to get a dragoon for buff the bard dps.

it's more time for them to focus on the balance between ranged and melee class. because even with the fact to bring only one of each jobs for the lb, you still have 1 melee dps for 3 ranged dps...

however, i doubt seriously that they will add new class soo soon after the release... when the balance it's still not that good. 2.3 or 2.4 seems more legit.
maybe in the 2.2 we will see a raise of level cap.

ps: as jobs i await a lot they are stuff like Dancer that will bring interesting new mechanic to the game.

Not sure where he said it, but Yoshida definitely mentioned that he wanted to add another Disciple of Magic before anything, since there are five Disciples of War, and only four/three Disciples of Magic. He's also mentioned that he kind of "has to" add in Musketeer, because of the guild.

indeed musketeer will be needed at some point, but right now, today it's that needed? i really really doubt it.
bring another ranged dps will need a lot of work for balance it and make it part of the whole game.
other point that i just did think, bring the musketeer now will create a big inbalance even in the melee one. the musketeer will probably be a piercing damage dps. even if they add magical bullet. bring a monk over a dragoon if you have a musketeer will loose all interest. even if the monk dps is good, it will not beat the fact that your dragoon will boost the musketeer and the bard dps.

all of this for say, it's maybe a bit early for a new class/jobs. i really hope we will get a raise of level cap first.

ps: indeed yoshida "has to" since it was said 3 years ago... but sadly with the game as it is... i doubt it's the better move to bring it now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rawkzor

Or maybe we'll see both? Musketeer -> Corsair, Scout -> Ninja / Thief. Boom added a ranged and 2 melee DPS jobs. So long as NIN isn't a tank in this game, should be good.

---

It will never be Scout (or Rogue) => Thief (DPS) or Ninja (DPS).

Why? They'd play exactly the same as each other. You can't differentiate jobs from each other with only 5 skills considering majority of your skills are from the class. So it'd be something like;

Scout => Thief (DPS)
Wanderer => Samurai (tank) or Ninja (DPS)

That way you can make them different enough so that they don't play together. Not to mention if you had Scout go into Thief / Ninja, you'd run into animation problems since Thieves only use 1 dagger (and attack multiple times) as opposed to Ninja (who just has 2 swords/daggers/etc). Kitru made a good post on it a while back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mezolitik

What is a scout in the FF sense? I only know scouts as healers, from Granado Espada.

---

Since my daily post limit has been increased to one post every 3 days, I'll just edit this one.

Look at classes like Arcanist, Conjurer, and Pugilist. They are just Summoner, White Mage and Monk with different names. Just because. So Scout would just be Thief without cool job skills.

Quote:

---

ok, i need to react to this one since it go way to far for explain an idea that a no go...
Samurai =/= ninja, you can't get them from the same class.... a samurai will use a Katana or a nodachi (two hand katana) while the ninja will use a Tanto (dagger version of the katana) or a wakizaki (short katana).
that said, generally in Final Fantasy series the only difference it's the dual wield for the ninja with the use of the ninjutsu+throw against multi hit+steal for the thief. (and it's not always the case for the multi-hit)

---

The only issue I can see with Samurai and Ninja not being from the same class is why I believe dual wield classes will not come from single weapon classes. Remaking animations for all skills is very annoying and really a waste of time.

Quote:

---

now, nothing forbid them to make the thief get dual wield and lose multi-hit since it potentially the same stuff! instead to use 2 weapon, you hit 2-3 time. that said, you seems to misunderstood some point, the class is generally based on the weapon, teaching you how to use it. the jobs give you special tool that goes with this. for make it short..

---

This is where you misunderstood. Thief used to attack with 1 weapon so in ARR they would use only 1 weapon to attack with. In previous games they just attacked multiple times, which is fine. Ninja uses two swords. Now, follow me with this; the animations for these weapons will not be the same. This is where this notion falls flat on its face. So Thief shouldn't be connected with Ninja solely based on that.

Quote:

---

Rogue (or whatever they choose as name) give you the weapon skill for use 2 blades at the same time:
- Thief, teach you the art of steal
- Ninja, teach you the use of the ninjutsu.
your skill with the dual wield will come from the rogue class while your jobs will give you more...specialized skill.

now, you mark a point when you say that jobs are hard to differenciate from the class, and that the main reason i think they need to add more level before add new class and jobs. for give to the jobs more skill and make them really different.

---

They'll need to introduce another 10 new skills (L60 cap) before you can sufficiently differentiate jobs from each other if they the same role and come from the same class. Let's take a look at Archer/Bard for a moment. Remove all their songs and what are they? An Archer. Do they use songs all the time or even Rain of Death religiously? Nope. So if you were to make Ranger, a dps class, how would not be exactly like Bard in practice? So you can see how doing that within the new few levels won't work.

Quote:

---

ps: for the samurai will come from the two hand sword class, it's seems more logical and will allows him to wear the right armor, since it will be in chain mail or heavy armor, when the ninja it's in leather armor.

---

Two-hand can easily just be a stance. Considering the staple of Samurai is Fdraw, Iaido which is one handed.

What is a scout in the FF sense? I only know scouts as healers, from Granado Espada.

One thing I noticed about the "New Years Greeting" post was in Louisoix's entry was taking about splendor dancing with shade and unsheathed blades. So I hope that's a hint at a Dancer class/job.
Or it could be a nod at Shiva, given that it's a "rime kissed blade", rime being a layer of ice formed from water droplets, and it "Spills crimson o'er fields of white.", which is most likely snow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

It will never be Scout (or Rogue) => Thief (DPS) or Ninja (DPS).

Why? They'd play exactly the same as each other. You can't differentiate jobs from each other with only 5 skills considering majority of your skills are from the class. So it'd be something like;

Scout => Thief (DPS)
Wanderer => Samurai (tank) or Ninja (DPS)

That way you can make them different enough so that they don't play together. Not to mention if you had Scout go into Thief / Ninja, you'd run into animation problems since Thieves only use 1 dagger (and attack multiple times) as opposed to Ninja (who just has 2 swords/daggers/etc). Kitru made a good post on it a while back.

---

ok, i need to react to this one since it go way to far for explain an idea that a no go...
Samurai =/= ninja, you can't get them from the same class.... a samurai will use a Katana or a nodachi (two hand katana) while the ninja will use a Tanto (dagger version of the katana) or a wakizaki (short katana).
that said, generally in Final Fantasy series the only difference it's the dual wield for the ninja with the use of the ninjutsu+throw against multi hit+steal for the thief. (and it's not always the case for the multi-hit)

now, nothing forbid them to make the thief get dual wield and loose multi-hit since it potentially the same stuff! instead to use 2 weapon, you hit 2-3 time. that said, you seems to misunderstood some point, the class is generally based on the weapon, teaching you how to use it. the jobs give you special tool that goes with this. for make it short..

Rogue (or whatever they choose as name) give you the weapon skill for use 2 blades at the same time:
- Thief, teach you the art of steal
- Ninja, teach you the use of the ninjutsu.
your skill with the dual wield will come from the rogue class while your jobs will give you more...specialized skill.

now, you mark a point when you say that jobs are hard to differenciate from the class, and that the main reason i think they need to add more level before add new class and jobs. for give to the jobs more skill and make them really different.

ps: for the samurai will come from the two hand sword class, it's seems more logical and will allows him to wear the right armor, since it will be in chain mail or heavy armor, when the ninja it's in leather armor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mimilu

One thing I noticed about the "New Years Greeting" post was in Louisoix's entry was taking about splendor dancing with shade and unsheathed blades. So I hope that's a hint at a Dancer class/job.
Or it could be a nod at Shiva, given that it's a "rime kissed blade", rime being a layer of ice formed from water droplets, and it "Spills crimson o'er fields of white.", which is most likely snow.

---

That is speaking of some kind of event to happen in Coerthas. The first stanza speaks of a Spear of Light which could be both the Ishgard people who rule through religion and Halone who's symbol is a triple spear rune. Halone is also the Patron Goddess of the Ishgard.


Beckoning shadows deeper still, is some plot meaning. There are many shadowy people in Coerthas that hide among the Ishgard people, look at the story mission with the guy that pointed fingers at people.

Splendor dances in the shade...eh..I have a pandora's box vibe. Through all the horror and doubt released, hope was burried deep inside. So even though the times will be dark, there is a guiding light deep inside that will bring about hope.

Rime Blade....frost covered blade....an Icy Spear or sword perhaps. Ice is Halone's element, spear is her symbol...I heard tell of a Knight group in Ishgard so their swords (being the only idea for a Job class though second soul for the Gladiator seems unlikely most likely a new Tank class to go with both Gladiator and Marauder.

Crimson spilled over a field of white. There is going to be war in Coerthas....not like there isn't already a war going on now.


So the prophecy is more a foretelling of 2.2's story event than a class hint.



As for how soon it is, I completely disagree. 6 months after the release of the game is plenty of time to have gauged the overall specs of the individual classes and decide on whether or not we need a new one. Now is a perfect time to add in a new class if one is to be added.

A lot of the hints given do see to favor the Musketeer over anything else, though I'd really prefer a magic class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

A lot of the hints given do see to favor the Musketeer over anything else, though I'd really prefer a magic class.

---

It's largely arbitrary, but, while I expect Musketeer to be added in 2.2, I'm also hoping for them to add a new tank job and a new healer job, even if they don't have accompanying classes (though, to add a new healer, it would pretty much require a new class entirely). There's loads of DPS options but the tanking/healing options are still slim pickin's.

I know it usually doesn't fit, especially with most traditional MMOs but I'd love to see a Non-magical healer. Preferably a dancer. I know it doesn't make sense, but a Dancer is a support class. Dancing to entice the viewers. This could be used to create special dance evoked rituals to either heal or enfeeble the opponent. This way you could have Dance buffs and heals. I'd always assume that the Dancer would primarily be a party healer, majority of their moves would effect party rather than a single target, same with opponents, though that would make them into close range healers as they'd have to be a specific distance to effect both party and opponents.

If the Alchemist didn't take the name, a chemist could have provided a non-magical healer.


As for tank I'm still praying for a pure magic tank, and not one that relies of physical force to get things done.


Kitru...as a fan of many of your designs (i've read your DRK and RDM ones.) Why aren't you on the development team? D=

i still think we can see thief as class for the ninja, i know a lot of people don't like this idea, but it's not that strange it did already happend in the past final fantasy actually.

in the first final fantasy the thief can be upgraded in ninja

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Fantasy

I think what they were saying though is you are comparing water to wine. Here, the expanded jobs take on the stances of the previous class. So a thief Class bringing in a Ninja Job is bad because then the general Ninja would be limited to the Thief's animations of one handed dagger attacks rather than the potential dual wielding attacks that a Ninja should have. If the Thief isn't a dual Wielding class it basically becomes a crutch to the Ninja who is usually a dual wielding class on its own.

For the same reasons a Red mage would have to come from a brand new class and wouldn't be able to cross Class Job it with Conjurer and Thamaturge since the Red Mage uses Swords and neither Thamaturge nor Conjurer uses swords.

Even skills seen to stay the same as my Summoner holds his Grimoire under his left arm and flings out as a Thamaturge does when using a Thamaturge Cross Class Spell. He also holds the Grimoire out and raises it up into the air when using Conjurer spells as a Scholar. The animations stay roughly the same based on the originating class and it would seem extremely odd for a Dual Wielding class to not be able to use two weapons just because its previous class didn't use two weapons in the animation. That's what I'm getting from their replies.

Not saying that a theif cannot be a dual wielding class themselves, but that was what the others were trying to push across.

And really you cannot compare older FF arch-types to FF14 since the Armory Class is different from the old traditional Class Grid.

you simply focus on game like Final Fantasy 11 or stuff like this, but every FF have it own rule. i have simply say that the thief can perfectly a class leading to the jobs of Ninja and that will not shock me.

other point, this interview it's.... interesting and make your point irevelant:

http://www.secrets-eorzea.com/en/new...rets-of-eorzea

Quote:

---

• The Secrets of Eorzea (SOE)

Will you make the second jobs very different from their class or first job? For example, the Dark Knight is a very aggressive job and since you seem to want it to become the second Gladiator job (This has never been confirmed but since Yoshi-P always uses it as an example, you never know... ), don't you think Gladiator's abilities are in contradiction with his style?

• Naoki Yoshida (NY):

I see what you mean. We created the system, but we do not necessarily need to follow it all the time. For example, let’s say that the Dark Knight is the second Gladiator job (attention, it is still not a confirmation), when you get its job stone at level 30, all acquired Gladiator skills will certainly be modified to better fit the image of the Dark Knight.

It was just to give an example to explain that we are not going to destroy how players consider different classes / jobs. It could be an interesting way to introduce future classes / jobs. We will consider your concerns on this issue, rest assured.
This should make things more interesting, don't you think?

---

this part show you how they can change a class animation and even the skill for adapt it to a jobs.

Can and will are two different things.

They say they can, yet they haven't done so as shown by my statement with my Summoner and Scholar moving like a Thamturge and Conjurer when casting their spells. I'm stuck with their animations, and that's not an animation arguement, that's a skill set argument. The Gladiator is a Tank and the Dark Knight would be a DPS. He's saying that they could make it to where the abilities could function differently while under the guise of a DPS like class rather than a Tank, similar to how the Arcanist can become a DPS or Healer with the same core move sets. It doesn't change the relevance of my or anyone else's post against what you say at all.

in some mmorpg the animation of the same skill change when you dual wield, but that not the point, like i did say, it's greatly possible that thief will be dual wield like ninja, mostly because it's easier for them. and even if that not the case, change the animation is not the harder part behind this.

you take the example of the summoner/scholar for say that the jobs will feel the same. and it's true, with 5 skill it will look like a lot. it's why i think they need to add level before add class. for make dual class more....different. but even if that the case.... the core skill will still the be same...

other point you say that talk of the old FF games is not good too... but when you say that ninja must be dual wield and thief one handed... you are using the old Final Fantasy as basic for decide this. the point it's... they have already take a lot of liberty and make them jobs/class them own turf. the warrior, monk,... don't feel like the class/jobs they are coming from. the best example it's the warrior that a mix of the berserker and viking.

for come back to the subject.... don't hope for an add of class for the 2.2. nor that the musketeer will be the first class added. like many have said before other class are in need more than a ranged dps with a gun. tank, healer and scout class will surely be in the first line....then the musketeer will come.

indeed Yoshida has to add the musketeer, but he can decide to add it in 1-2 years who know. indeed the guild are here, indeed we have some npc using gun in the basement, but they was already there in the 1.x and nothing have change outside the fact that now the marauder and the musketeer guild are in the same building.

ps: i can understand that you really want to see the musketeer come fast, like i hope for the dancer to come to the game as a jobs from the pugilist *grins*
however, i invite you to try to search some interview of yoshida or in the old live letter for see that the musketeer it's really often asked and each time, he avoid the subject... i can understand why that, the class will need to fill a role and be different of the archer and that really hard to do.

Nothing you have said helps your point at all. All I did was explain why others disagreed with your assessment. There is relative proof backing up the claim for Musketeer, and only the claim mind you. I do not say that it will be done, but there are written hints to it with this update as subjective as they are.

Balance and what should be added is in the eye of the beholder. We have 2 of each Tank and Healer roles. In an ideal party as set up by SE for this game, you have 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, and 4 DPS. All of which we do have. So no matter what, what ever is added will create an imbalance that we already have set. I have not said anything saying that he must do anything. Its there, so I do agree that it has more importance than anything else, but I do not subscribe to "they have to do it". In all honesty, no they don't.

As for animation wise, I agreed with you on the point that the Thief can be a Dual Wielding class. Though general structure (Not just FF structure) they typically are not and a lot of people don't accept them as such either. I only explained what I saw as the reasoning behind others views. I have not a care for Melee classes. I deal with arcane classes only and I have little to no interest in leveling up the Disciple of War. I started this thread because of rumors being thrown around, another of which is a Knight or Templar of Isgardian origin, a possible second Job for the Gladiator and the Lancer if you are to believe what is being said.

I'm simply stating what has been shown by others and trying to at least get you to see what they are saying rather than you blindly ignoring everything.


When it comes down to it, I basically want, Red Mage, Geomancer, Blue Mage, Beast Master (Possibly one of the only non-Magic centered classes I'll play due to being a tamer class and I love tamer classes), and Dancer (IF AND ONLY IF Dancer is a Healing class.). I'd be willing to try Rune knight/Fencer and Mystic Knight mostly because they sound like they'd be Magic based, though looking at how the Paladin was done, I'm certain they'd be more Physical based than Magical. Sadly none of what I'd prefer to play were hinted at.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by silentwindfr

in some mmorpg the animation of the same skill change when you dual wield, but that not the point, like i did say, it's greatly possible that thief will be dual wield like ninja, mostly because it's easier for them. and even if that not the case, change the animation is not the harder part behind this.

---

In some MMORPG, you can ride flying mounts across the map. However, this is Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn. Imagine for a moment that Gladiator turned into Ninja for some obscene reason. Would the Ninja hold the second weapon like a shield and never use it since it derives 100% from Gladiator one handed skills?

Quote:

---

you take the example of the summoner/scholar for say that the jobs will feel the same. and it's true, with 5 skill it will look like a lot. it's why i think they need to add level before add class. for make dual class more....different. but even if that the case.... the core skill will still the be same...

---

Summoner/Scholar is unique in the sense that they are not the same role. Healer and DPS will not play the same because their functions are completely different. It's when you take Arcanist => Summoner (DPS) and Beastmaster (DPS) that's when the lines are blurred. 5 skills isn't enough, 10 skills may still not be enough but when you tread into 11+ skills then you can sufficiently say they are different jobs. So 4.0?

Quote:

---

other point you say that talk of the old FF games is not good too... but when you say that ninja must be dual wield and thief one handed... you are using the old Final Fantasy as basic for decide this. the point it's... they have already take a lot of liberty and make them jobs/class them own turf. the warrior, monk,... don't feel like the class/jobs they are coming from. the best example it's the warrior that a mix of the berserker and viking.

---

Old FF games are what give us a basic understanding of what is to come next. FFXIV took on the Summoner approach as FFIV's SMN while Warrior didn't really exist until now where it's depicted as a Beserker. (Recall that Warrior was only a new name for Fighter from FF1 and never existed from then on afterwards.) So it's more like we don't expect Thief to come as a healer. Or Calculator to come as a tank. FFXI made the foolish mistake of accidentally putting Ninja as a tank but that simply won't happen in ARR, at least not by accident.

Taken from the ffxiv main page a while back on a leak that occurred.

http://i.imgur.com/10iOgAJ.jpg

Also, YoshiP did say in an interview when asked what jobs would be coming out next:

I think Musketeer should be next, since people expect it. There was a guild 1.0 and everything!

^ something along those lines was the translation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by silentwindfr

Rogue (or whatever they choose as name) give you the weapon skill for use 2 blades at the same time

---

To answer this, I refer to my comment from another thread on this very subject:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

I highly doubt this, simply because of the amount of stats on the swords. A main-weapon and shield combo is supposed to be roughly equal in stats to a two-handed weapon, with the main weapon supplying most of your stats while the shield supplies the rest of it. To put some fake numbers to it, think of the main weapon as holding 70% of your stats while the shield holds the remaining 30%. If you were suddenly able to equip two main weapons, you've now got more stats working in your favor than any other class or job.

The only way I could see dual-wielding working stat-wise is if it was like the PGL: you only equip one weapon, which has the all of the appropriate amount of stats on it, but you're shown as wielding one in each hand.

---

And another thing:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by silentwindfr

i still think we can see thief as class for the ninja

---

It happened in roughly 3 games in the past: FF1 and in a couple of the tactics games.

I am a firm believer in the fact that Thief, one of the most iconic and reoccurring jobs in the series, should not be relegated to a class, the thing most people don't care exists once they hit Lv30 and unlock their job(s). It would be an extreme disservice to the people (like me) who feel that Thief deserves a job with it's own soul crystal, artifact gear, and relic weapon, and though people may disagree with me, I do believe that Thief and Ninja CAN be different enough to justify them being two different things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

When it comes down to it, I basically want, Red Mage, Geomancer, Blue Mage, Beast Master (Possibly one of the only non-Magic centered classes I'll play due to being a tamer class and I love tamer classes), and Dancer (IF AND ONLY IF Dancer is a Healing class.). I'd be willing to try Rune knight/Fencer and Mystic Knight mostly because they sound like they'd be Magic based, though looking at how the Paladin was done, I'm certain they'd be more Physical based than Magical. Sadly none of what I'd prefer to play were hinted at.

---

Red Mage and Blue Mage are my favorite jobs of all time! I just really hope they don't get thrown under the bus by being based off current classes, particularly the lame GLA. It would suck to have such a lame setup of 50 Lvs and then only 5 unique actions for both jobs. RDM and BLU are far too versatile in nature to be based off the current classes which are so far set-in-stone roles.

Sure SCH is a healer but it doesn't feel THAT different from SMN when you look at the action line-up. As SCH you can pretty much do all the same things as SMN can do it just doesn't do as much dmg and you lose some very bland DPS boosting actions and the pet functions differently. However comparing the other way around it does look like SCH gained a lot over over SMN as far as what it can do. Sure both are equally effective at their corresponding roles, but really it feels more just like the stats changed more than the actual job.

Compare to CNJ and all of a sudden SCH looks like it gained 5 levels of healing instead of 50, it just happened to be on a much more versatile class that has a lot of utility actions. As much as I'm looking forward to attempt tanking on both RDM and BLU whether it will be able to or not I don't want it to be based of the GLA setup. Because compared to the the more versatile setup of ACN, GLA does not look like it will sway very much at all from tanking, and again I would love to tank as RDM and/or BLU, but just adding 5 actions to GLA isn't going to make RDM nor BLU unique enough for me.

I really hope SE makes a Fencer class and extends to both RDM and BLU off that with BLU equipping Scimitars instead and GLA would make a great cross-class candidate for either job if SE wants them to fulfill a Tank Role or support tank via Support Role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

Red Mage and Blue Mage are my favorite jobs of all time! I just really hope they don't get thrown under the bus by being based of current classes, particularly the lame GLA. It would suck to have such a lame setup of 50 Lvs and then only 5 unique actions for both jobs. I really hope SE makes a Fencer class and extends to both RDM and BLU off that with BLU equipping Scimitars instead.

---

Well, in a way, that's pretty much how the SCH functions. While I don't see Red Mage or Blue Mage coming out of Gladiator, it's still entirely possible that a job and it's role can work without a full complement of 17 abilities and 11 traits. Even then, Yoshi-P has said that he's willing to bend the rules of the armory system if it accomplishes the desired task; his given example was DRK coming from GLD, where they could do things like remove the bonus enmity on the various abilities in order to make it a viable DD job using abilities normally designed for tanking. Which they would have to do, as Arcanist is the only one seemingly built from the ground-up to accommodate both of it's associated jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

Well, in a way, that's pretty much how the SCH functions. While I don't see Red Mage or Blue Mage coming out of Gladiator, it's still entirely possible that a job and it's role can work without a full complement of 17 abilities and 11 traits. Even then, Yoshi-P has said that he's willing to bend the rules of the armory system if it accomplishes the desired task; his given example was DRK coming from GLD, where they could do things like remove the bonus enmity on the various abilities in order to make it a viable DD job using abilities normally designed for tanking. Which they would have to do, as Arcanist is the only one seemingly built from the ground-up to accommodate both of it's associated jobs.

---

Well the job can fuction w/o all those class actions and traits it's just as SMN I use all those actions ACN gets, as SCH I don't. SCH is cool in it's own way it just feels bland having all those actions I don't use. One of my favorite things about RDM and BLU is that I had so many actions in FFXI I could use. I don't want RDM and BLU to turn into a 5-10 action job like SCH because all the other actions are mainly meant for a specific role, which SCH won't fulfill unless you make a custom party setup. And really I understand how Yoshi P can make DRK work off GLA by the way he described it. My issue is the same with that. DRK will be able to do dmg sure and maybe it might even do the most dmg, but it seems like it would just be so bland and boring being based so heavily off the GLA setup.

Oh trust me, a Scholar can make perfect use of DoT skills left over from when it was an Arcanist. When I'm in parties its roughly the same as having three DPS with 2 Healers due to the Fairy counting. I still haven't learned to place my Fairy yet, but I do know how to use her skills away from mine and can force her into doing a well placed group heal along with mine, then give a quick focus to slap Bio 2 + Miasma + Bio 1 on the Tank's biggest worry and immediately go back to fully supporting my team with heals.

Its not a very bland class. The way I read YoshiP's description, they could tweak the GLD's abilities, though I'd fear them crippling the GLD in the process, and make it a more viable option for the DRK. The DRK then would have his own Abilities and what ever Cross Abilities at his disposal to work depending if they made it a DPS or not. Those should cover enough plus the damage dealing skills a GLD would pass on, leaving the Defensive skills alone unless you like the heal bonus.

For RDM and BLU. I kinda hope they each get their own Class/Job. I'd see the RDM (traditional in the sense) as a Support DPS similar to the BRD. From memory they've never been able to sustain a great deal of damage, though being able to wear Medium and Heavy Armor is nice, but not enough to warrant a Tank. With them being able to use Black and White Magic and their own Enfeebling Magic I could see them as a reversed Arcanist/Summoner/Scholar. DPS through one Build focusing on Enfeebling or Healing with Enemy Debuffs. Maybe even mix like how the BRD is and PLD seeing as they can throw out emergency heals if ever needed.

BLU from memory (excluding 11 and previous 14) have always been Bulky. They have some good defensive abilities and healing wise they pretty much just had Angel Snack (Remedy/Esuna) and White Wind (What I'd guess be a Medica on here). Matra Magic, Goblin Punch, Frog Drop, Vanish, Mighty Guard (May be a bit OP unless they make it dumbed down), Angel Whisper would be OP as well XD.

Just noticed Shadow Flare was a Blue Magic ability from FF7. XD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

I also forgot to mention Geomancers before XD Really don't see how they'd work, but I would love to have one.

---

Geomancer should be the caster job attached to Conjurer. All it really needs is an AoE nuke or two and a way to very efficiently manage their MP (since Shroud of Saints is trash compared to and obtained WAY later than Umbral Ice and Aetherflow).

While I do agree, I kinda find them more to both Thaumatruge and Conjurer...since a Geomancer uses all 6 aspects of nature, Wind, Water, Earth, Fire, Ice and Thunder. Maybe a Job class using the two as the base and allowing you to use both sets as Cross Class abilities? They'd have to allow Thaumaturges to use Conjurer abilities or vice versa. Can't really see it working without full elemental support.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

However comparing the other way around it does look like SCH gained a lot over over SMN as far as what it can do. Sure both are equally effective at their corresponding roles, but really it feels more just like the stats changed more than the actual job.

---

That's because ACN, the base class, is designed with a lot more of the baseline functionality of a DPS locally because ACN *isn't* a healing class. BRD doesn't need to provide any attacks to ARC because ARC already has a fully functional attack string thanks to also being DPS. BLM doesn't get a whole slew of new attacks: it gets bonus AoE functionality (which is what casters are supposed to do better than anyone else) and some secondary personal-support functionality. SMN doesn't get abilities that fundamentally change how you play when you're a SCH because most of its needed functionality (attacks and damage buffs) is provided by the class itself (though Fester, Spur, and Enkindle are pretty big benefits, as I see it; especially Fester). SCH still *uses* a majority of the abilities that ACN provides while being a healer (depending upon how you view Energy Drain, there are either 9 or 10 ACN abilities that are directly useful to a healer; ACN has 18 total) though those act as the secondary requirements of a healer (healing buffs and damage reduction debuffs); the additional abilities that change SCH so much are there because the role is being changed and SCH doesn't have everything that a healer is *supposed* to have on its own (maintenance heal, big heal, AoE heal, cleanse, rez; ACN only brings the maint heal and the rez) though it's appropriate because ACN *does* bring plenty of useful abilities to SCH.

Quote:

---

Compare to CNJ and all of a sudden SCH looks like it gained 5 levels of healing instead of 50, it just happened to be on a much more versatile class that has a lot of utility actions.

---

Except that, if you look at the base class (from a healer perspective), SCH operates at a significant disadvantage as a healer compared to CNJ. CNJ gets most of the healing functionality that it needs via the class: without even *getting* to WHM, CNJ fulfills all of the requirements for a healing role all on its lonesome. WHM isn't turning CNJ into a healer; it's *refining* CNJ because it is *already* a healer. Most of the stuff that SCH gets that you're counting as "levels" when comparing it to WHM/CNJ are (generally) worthless in the eyes of a healer: CNJ gets 4 attacks and 1 DPS stance (that's there for soloing purposes because you can't kill stuff by healing it); ACN has 8. WHM gives CNJ some missing-but-not-required functionality (self buffs), provides a couple heals to fill not-entirely-necessary-functionality gaps (instant heals; one for maintenance, one for uber-healing), and rounds it off with an attack.

To use your metaphor of "gained levels", yes, SCH gains 5 "level"s compared to WHM, but it's starting off 5 levels lower than WHM.

Quote:

---

Because compared to the the more versatile setup of ACN, GLA does not look like it will sway very much at all from tanking, and again I would love to tank as RDM and/or BLU, but just adding 5 actions to GLA isn't going to make RDM nor BLU unique enough for me.

---

The problem with turning GLA into a DPS (or CNJ into a DPS) is that you have too many abilities in the base class devoted to the original role and too few devoted to the new role. GLA has 8 abilities that provide no useful functionality to a DPS (tank CDs, after parry attack, taunt; Flash *could* be seen as worthless, though it's possible to have it deal damage from the job change so I'm not counting it), and CNJ has 6. On the other hand, GLA has only 7 abilities that would be useful for a DPS (assuming Flash would get turned into one; it should also be mentioned that all but 3 of those are highly situational) and CNJ has only 4 (Cleric Stance doesn't count because it requires high baseline MND; if a DPS job was supposed to use Cleric Stance, they'd be stacking MND and, therefore, be able to heal nearly as well as a WHM when they don't have it active).

It's *possible* to construct DPS jobs for the classes (and, if you play it right, you can actually make a reasonably compelling playstyle; I played around with doing it with Geomancer here), but too much of the base functionality that the class brings would be rendered useless: DPS don't really need heals nor do they need a whole slew of tanking CDs (in fact, the slew of tanking CDs could very easily turn a GLA DPS job into something broken as hell in PvP since they'd be full DPS with tank grade survivability).

Quote:

---

I really hope SE makes a Fencer class and extends to both RDM and BLU off that with BLU equipping Scimitars instead and GLA would make a great cross-class candidate for either job if SE wants them to fulfill a Tank Role or support tank via Support Role.

---

BLU could *maybe* pull a slot as a tank job, but I honestly expect that it would go to Mystic Knight (MYS) before it ever went to BLU. Also, you can't really go from equipping one weapon as the class and a different one as the job, so, if BLU were built off of Fencer, I'd expect it to use the same thing (fencing swords). As to GLA as a CC candidate, it's pretty much required because of Provoke, and, if you pull more than just the existing suite that WAR has access to in order to bolster existing performance, you end up stealing GLA's thunder (which is, you know, it's CD suite).

I definitely see RDM as an mDPS with support capabilities. BLU could probably do it too, though I'd expect it to get a different base class than RDM.

From the latest text I feel like we are getting another Job stemming off of dragoon. My guess would be Templar. Maybe a version of a support melee as far as it's skillset.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

BLU could *maybe* pull a slot as a tank job, but I honestly expect that it would go to Mystic Knight (MYS) before it ever went to BLU. Also, you can't really go from equipping one weapon as the class and a different one as the job, so, if BLU were built off of Fencer, I'd expect it to use the same thing (fencing swords). As to GLA as a CC candidate, it's pretty much required because of Provoke, and, if you pull more than just the existing suite that WAR has access to in order to bolster existing performance, you end up stealing GLA's thunder (which is, you know, it's CD suite).

I definitely see RDM as an mDPS with support capabilities. BLU could probably do it too, though I'd expect it to get a different base class than RDM.

---

Well my reasoning for being able to have a different wpn for BLU is that DRK keeps being brought up as a 2nd job for GLA quite often. It's certainly not using a 1 handed sword. It will most likely use a 2 handed sword which PLD most likely won't be able to use.

Maybe Fencer (maybe Duelist instead) can use both Degens and Scimitars but RDM can only use Degens and BLU can only use Scimitars. From my past experiences both RDM and BLU are jack-of-all-trades and particularly in FFXI both can fulfill all roles.

I've Tanked(including non /NIN)/DPSed/Healed/Supported on both RDM and BLU at Lv 75 cap, and sometimes I even mixed the roles and performed multiple ones at lesser values at the same time depending on the party setup and the fight. However subjobs really helped RDM and BLU perform other roles, basically with a jack-of-all-trades you were a master of none but a subjob greatly closed that gap. In theory from my perspective RDM is 1/3 WHM 1/3 BLM and 1/3 WAR from the original concepts.

BLU is even more versatile than that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

Oh trust me, a Scholar can make perfect use of DoT skills left over from when it was an Arcanist. When I'm in parties its roughly the same as having three DPS with 2 Healers due to the Fairy counting. I still haven't learned to place my Fairy yet, but I do know how to use her skills away from mine and can force her into doing a well placed group heal along with mine, then give a quick focus to slap Bio 2 + Miasma + Bio 1 on the Tank's biggest worry and immediately go back to fully supporting my team with heals.

---

My issue with SCH is that my only experience with the job was in FFXI, which was 1/2 WHM and 1/2 BLM (which is what the majority of people considered RDM in FFXI to be). In FFXIV the way SCH is setup is cool I just don't feel like it deserves that name at all. The AF and lore matches the name perfectly, but for the me the actions don't. This is why I feel SCH was thrown under the bus. Sure SCH can do dmg, but so can WHM and in most scenarios where you would want a healer to also do dmg (WP SR or for a quick burst) I would honestly take a WHM over a SCH. SCH would be better DPS for a single-target/longer fight (also AOE if longer) than WHM, but in EG you just don't see healers in the DPS role unless the party far outclasses the content in skill/gear. For example I have ran AK with 4 DPS roles and solo tanked/solo healed with Titan-Egi as SMN w/o any wipes, but that just isn't going to be viable in EG.

Also, while I like SMN (it's my main), it feels MORE like a Warlock from WoW than a FF style SMN. SMN is also a cool setup but like SCH (and yet again the AF and lore matches the name) I don't feel like it deserves that name. I don't want RDM and BLU to end up like these jobs, where the name doesn't fit the actions/play style (which I consider being thrown under the bus).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

While I do agree, I kinda find them more to both Thaumatruge and Conjurer...since a Geomancer uses all 6 aspects of nature, Wind, Water, Earth, Fire, Ice and Thunder. Maybe a Job class using the two as the base and allowing you to use both sets as Cross Class abilities? They'd have to allow Thaumaturges to use Conjurer abilities or vice versa. Can't really see it working without full elemental support.

---

Geomancer definitely is more related to Conjurer than Thaumaturge. A Conjurer's magic basically comes from asking the aether in the nature around him/her for its aid. A Thaumaturge controls the aether inside of themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

Well my reasoning for being able to have a different wpn for BLU is that DRK keeps being broguht up as a 2nd job for GLA. It's certainly not using a 1 handed sword. It will most likely use a 2 handed sword which PLD most likely won't be able to use.

---

I wouldn't expect weapons to change from job to job. Class are defined and determined by their weapon choice, not the other way around. It makes perfect sense for DRK, if it's built off of GLA, to keep using a 1h sword and shield, and, honestly, it makes a lot more sense than having it spontaneously switch over to 2h: for the same amount of work, they could pretty much make an entirely new class (they would already have to reevaluate the damage and CDs for it to do proper damage and have a not-boring-as-hell rotation).

If DRK is going to go 2h, I fully expect it to be based off of a second class entirely (I did such a design in my sig). Of course, at that point, I also expect it to be a tank rather than a DPS job since the (appropriate) options for tank jobs are pretty slim (Mystic Knight and Berserker are the only real "iconic" FF jobs that would make sense as tank besides DRK; everything else makes more sense as a DPS or healer).

They already said that new jobs will come from new expansion(which was said to be for 3.0) and that new jobs will come new level cap... just go dig up some info. it's there..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eijii

They already said that new jobs will come from new expansion

---

That's the exact *opposite* of what they said. Yoshi-P has explicitly stated that we're going to get new jobs as part of the updates rather than through expansions. So, yeah, follow your own advice and dig up some *correct* info.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

If DRK is going to go 2h, I fully expect it to be based off of a second class entirely (I did such a design in my sig). Of course, at that point, I also expect it to be a tank rather than a DPS job since the (appropriate) options for tank jobs are pretty slim (Mystic Knight and Berserker are the only real "iconic" FF jobs that would make sense as tank besides DRK; everything else makes more sense as a DPS or healer).

---

If DRK doesn't go 2H (whether Greatsword or Scythe) then EVERYONE is going to be rioting the forums at that fail of what I have stated above: throwing the job under the bus. DRK isn't even a job on my top 5 jobs I'm hoping to see, but to see a DRK holding a Sword and Shield for DPS is just unacceptable to me. Sure you can DPS with that setup. It's very easy to rewrite stats so that GLA attacks can do dmg with a new job, but when you turn the iconic DRK into something so different people are going to be very angry when they expect to roll on "DRK" and get handed a Tank or a 1H DPS.

If we want every job to be described the way it SHOULD be and NEVER have the wpn choice of the class changing, then the armory system is pointless. SE will only be creating classes with 1 job. It's either add new wpns for jobs coming off certain classes or scrap classes entirely. SE is going to run into lots of issues trying to do so otherwise. They will either have a fail system or very angry customers.