Increase rewards for losing team

I think this is partly to blame for all the 3 man premades and constant bunny hopping. The rewards for losing are so bad its win at all cost.

No...regardless of what circumstance on how you lost...you still lost the match. No buff is needed for losing in pvp.

I def agree losing xp and marks should be boosted, like it be 50% of the winning rewards. PvP is to unbalanced and disproportional atm.

They need to raise the losing team's xp and marks if they want a sustainable pvp population. With pvp gear and materia costing so much, - its very disheartening for people who enjoy pvp but only win about half their matches to look at those prices and feel like they're ever going to afford anything. And those people will eventually stop queuing as a result.

This is a bad idea for one reason. There are already people botting losses out there because they're too lazy to actually play or htey want to earn marks in their sleep.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This is a bad idea for one reason. There are already people botting losses out there because they're too lazy to actually play or htey want to earn marks in their sleep.

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People who bot/exploit/etc. will do it regardless.

To the OP, I agree but for different reasons. There will always be players that gravitate towards the path of least resistance (currently 3-man groups in solo que), and increasing the rewards for losing teams won't change that. However, I think an increase is necessary to reduce the barrier to entry for new players. The gear/skill advantage for experienced players is massive in FFXIV, and most new players will lose almost every game. Players that are ahead of the curve win more and pull further ahead, while players who are behind lose more and fall even further behind. It snowballs both ways, and the problem will get worse over time.

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Originally Posted by Mitski

People who bot/exploit/etc. will do it regardless.

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"People will do it regardless" isn't a reason not to consider the factor. If losing didn't give anything / gave almost nothing nobody would be botting it and then these people wouldn't be ruining the matches of the people who get stuck with them. In fact, your very argument is one of the reasons for the OP's complaint, as people will take any advantage they can find. More reward for losing (which shouldn't happen) doesn't drive people to get themselves an advantage because everyone would already rather win more than they usually do if there is a way to do so.

What's worse than 3 mans is lv30/40 4 man parties, which basically can't lose regardless of team comp.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

"People will do it regardless" isn't a reason not to consider the factor.

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It certainly is.

Increase rewards or decrease the cost of pvp materia please.

Thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

*SNIP*

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If losing gave no rewards, PvP would basically die. Sure the small minority of players who are botting would be gone, but so would everyone else.

People bot because 10 marks all day long will net them a decent amount of marks per effort (zero) each day. If you increase the rewards for a loss, you will increase the incentive for people to bot resulting in more bots.

The best idea for increasing rewards for those currently gaining at a slow rate is to make a change to the system so that those that queue in 3 man premades are paired against other premades. The win rate and marks gained for those now doing solo queue should increase significantly with this one change.

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Originally Posted by realistic1

People bot because 10 marks all day long will net them a decent amount of marks per effort (zero) each day. If you increase the rewards for a loss, you will increase the incentive for people to bot resulting in more bots.

The best idea for increasing rewards for those currently gaining at a slow rate is to make a change to the system so that those that queue in 3 man premades are paired against other premades. The win rate and marks gained for those now doing solo queue should increase significantly with this one change.

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Whether or not people bot should not be a factor in deciding whether or not the rewards are adequately dispersed.

People will bot until banned. Nothing will change that. Botting should be a problem universally addressed regardless of the medium they use to bot.

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Originally Posted by Imapooonu

Whether or not people bot should not be a factor in deciding whether or not the rewards are adequately dispersed.

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This. ^^

SE should try to make the best game possible for legit players, and find other ways to go after people who cheat/exploit.

I'd be okay with them increasing the rewards for losers if the rewards for winners are increased as well.

why not? people now adays are so use to being rewarded for absolutely anything you do.

come in first place, get a reward.
come in second place, get a reward.
come in third place, get a reward.
come in fourth place, get a reward.

and so on and so on in that fashion until everyone in the world gets a reward thus making everyone a winner, and thus making being the winner completely useless because everyone is the winner!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Imapooonu

Whether or not people bot should not be a factor in deciding whether or not the rewards are adequately dispersed.

People will bot until banned. Nothing will change that. Botting should be a problem universally addressed regardless of the medium they use to bot.

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Good post.

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Whether or not people bot should not be a factor in deciding whether or not the rewards are adequately dispersed.

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The problem is not whether adequate rewards are being dispersed for losing; it is the frequency of losing versus winning. You would not be posting in this thread if you won 90% of your matches.

If the problem is the win/loss ratio, then you need to look at why this is so onesided. Two reasons for losses (there are more of course) are solo queue matches against 3 man premades and bots. People that call for higher rewards for losing are simply asking to exacerbate one of these problems and exacerbating any issue that contributes to the lopsided win/loss ratio will do nothing but intensify the existing problem.

I would much rather focus on the true issue (lopsided win/loss ratios for those not doing premades) such as seeing the game changed so that anything greater than a 2 man premade is paired against other premades and/or pairing teams with similar average gear levels than increase the marks for losing.

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People will bot until banned. Nothing will change that.

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I completely agree with the above but there are things than can certainly escalate the amount of bots and rewarding them with an increase in marks for botting and losing is one of these things. No one is claiming that bots don’t exist or need to be banned but why the heck would we be thinking of rewarding the botting action even more?

The only thing SE can do is leave the exp gain rate for losing but increase the mark gain for losing. That way even newbie players can at elast get their ilvl 70 easier to stand a chance, while also deterring Botters cause even with all those marks you'd still won't have enough rank for Ilvl 90s.

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The only thing SE can do is leave the exp gain rate for losing but increase the mark gain for losing. That way even newbie players can at elast get their ilvl 70 easier to stand a chance, while also deterring Botters cause even with all those marks you'd still won't have enough rank for Ilvl 90s.

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Why do you think that increasing marks would deter botters when they are currently doing it for less marks right now?

Again, take a look at WHY people are losing. The payout for losses is not the issue, the lopsided win/loss ratio for newbies and solo queue IS the issue. You are trying to place the bandaid on the wrong wound and will surely bleed out.

you know, if the going trend "in this game" is same reward for less (example: running WP till you puke for I90 gear) giving the same reward for winning or losing PvP is the same as giving people BC level loot for a faceroll easy mode dungeon. what's the difference?

I don't agree with this trend at all, but there is lots of support for it.

Personally I think the reward system is generous. I solo que several times per day, generally I win 1 in 4 with a complete pug. In the evenings I que with my FC members and win 9/10 matches. All in all I manage to maintain a positive win/lose ration, but you would not see me complain if the next update removed all rewards from losing. I know this will not happen, since the losing team still needs their carrot on a stick, but I wouldn't mind seeing it happen.

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Originally Posted by Devoire

Personally I think the reward system is generous. I solo que several times per day, generally I win 1 in 4 with a complete pug. In the evenings I que with my FC members and win 9/10 matches. All in all I manage to maintain a positive win/lose ration, but you would not see me complain if the next update removed all rewards from losing. I know this will not happen, since the losing team still needs their carrot on a stick, but I wouldn't mind seeing it happen.

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Obviously, if you can que up with a pre-made and win 90% of your games, you don't care right now, but if SE doesn't make the game rewarding for the general population everyone suffers: longer ques, slower progression, decreased competition, and the 'snowball' effect that compounds all problems.

Simply put, removing rewards for losing is the worst thing you could do for PvP.

There are so many blind people in this thread.

Accumulation of gear is a necessity to sustain PvP. In order to pvp well you need morale, and this only comes from PvP gear. The problem is the rate of accumulation for those who lose more matches than they win, thus furthering their loss streaks/ratio. Right now, you win 10x more marks for winning than losing. So if your first 10 games you get lucky and win 9/10 you are much further than someone who had bad luck at getting your first piece of gear, which begins the snowball.

As it is now, Gear > Skill. If you have the gear, you can be worse in skill than your opponent and still win due to the increased morale/stats you have over your opponent. This places the emphasis on gear accumulation, and gives those who win more up front the advantage over those who come in later, or lose at first until they figure out the PvP system, and makes no attempt to even out that advantage later on.

If you are lacking in Morale Gear simply que for Non-50 PvP, Morale only works in the 50 bracket.

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There are so many blind people in this thread.

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As someone that is gearing through solo queues, I see clearly the issue.

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Accumulation of gear is a necessity to sustain PvP. In order to pvp well you need morale, and this only comes from PvP gear.

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Agree and this is why I started with a full crafted set and over 150 morale. This is an option for all players prior to entering their first match.

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The problem is the rate of accumulation for those who lose more matches than they win, thus furthering their loss streaks/ratio. Right now, you win 10x more marks for winning than losing. So if your first 10 games you get lucky and win 9/10 you are much further than someone who had bad luck at getting your first piece of gear, which begins the snowball.

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All true but to correct a problem, one needs to look at the actual problem. In this case, you need to determine what is impacting the accumulation of marks.

The biggest impact is that those that solo queue are very often coming up against premade teams many of which are currently very well geared. Another less significant impact is low skill and/bots.

Charity for all in greater rewarding losing, players with little or no pvp skill, and bots is not the answer as it will not correct the problem.

As someone with over 200 solo queues and a very slow gear accumulation rate, I think increasing the rewards for losses is a terrible idea. I think it send the wrong message and totally ignores the REAL issues impacting accumulation. It also rewards everyone for losing including bots and people that lack pvp skill.

If you want to take the first step in truly correcting the issue of slow accumulation, have premades only paired against premades .

I feel like if a 4v4 loss would net double what it currently does there would be more activity in the 4v4 Q's. Right now if you Q 4v4 and your team is good, you usually win ever match against 1 or 2 teams until they decide they want to stop Qing up and then the fun is over and you sit in Q for 40+mins with no Q pop.

If they double the loss rewards only in 4v4 it would encourage people to Q with others from their server and make 4v4 q's pop, which would alleviate the 3Q and 4Qs in the solo games, cause its more efficient to Q with 4 people in 4's. I know alot of people are Qing 4 into solo Q cause they wanna play with their friends and 4q never pops i think this would help.

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Originally Posted by realistic1

You would not be posting in this thread if you won 90% of your matches.

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I certainly would. Objectivity is my strong suit. And I think you mean, “would not have made the comment I made”. Simply posting in a thread does not stipulate intention or agenda.

Right now the only real incentive to que matches in the duty finder is passion for pvp. Can you win in pug groups? Sure, but let’s be realistic. The incentives need to cater to the populous of the demographic, not a target group. The incentives available cater to premades. No one should be forced into premade groups to obtain rewards in a timely fashion. Should being in a premade have a distinct advantage? Yes, but as of now that advantage is lopsided.

I agree with some of your theory crafting as to why and/or how to fix the problem with premade groups and their advantages, but some consideration should be given to people who are simply going to pug for awhile and see what happens. 10 marks is simply not enough. Should it be 100? No.

I completely disagree with your opinions on boters.

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Originally Posted by Xayide

There are so many blind people in this thread.

Accumulation of gear is a necessity to sustain PvP. In order to pvp well you need morale, and this only comes from PvP gear. The problem is the rate of accumulation for those who lose more matches than they win, thus furthering their loss streaks/ratio. Right now, you win 10x more marks for winning than losing. So if your first 10 games you get lucky and win 9/10 you are much further than someone who had bad luck at getting your first piece of gear, which begins the snowball.

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A healthy PVP population is also necessary to sustain PVP. When all the people who come to PVP late or had bad luck or whatever get wasted by people with PVP gear/abilities get disheartened by how slowly they're progressing, they stop playing.

Need more rewards for losers.

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Originally Posted by Imapooonu

It certainly is.

Increase rewards or decrease the cost of pvp materia please.

Thanks in advance.

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Actually, they are reducing the cost of the materia.

And No, it certainly is not. Make losing more rewarding and more people will bot. I'd rather have less cheating than more even if I can't have zero. Botters hurt other players by making those other players lose too (most of the time).

The current rewards were set with the understanding that the average person will win 50% of the time. That would be mostly accurate if more knowledgable people weren't forming premades while people who don't know about this do not. SE plans to do something to address that issue though.

I would be fine with the Devs doubling the rewards of the losers, so long as the winners are doubled as well. This allows the losers to get their gear faster than the current rate, and does not diminish the winners reward either.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Actually, they are reducing the cost of the materia.

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I know. The amount rewards need to be increased is partially contingent on this factor. So until we actually know what that adjustment will be, it stands to reason the exact solution will remain unknown at this time. So, if the price for pvp materia is lowered 1%, then another adjustment would be needed for example.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

And No, it certainly is not.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

"People will do it regardless" isn't a reason not to consider the factor.

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Then I don’t understand this. It sounds to me like, “It is NOT a reason to NOT consider a certain factor”. I’m saying that “people will do it regardless” IS a reason to NOT consider it in the proposed solution. I just took what you said in a literal sense and feel boting should be a problem dealt with in a way that makes boting the core problem that inspires said solution.

And people who bot do it in their sleep and will continue until they buy the gear they want. So in theory, the quicker they get their gear, the SOONER they will stop boting. Also, a group with an excellent bot strategy will also win against most pug groups. So it makes sense to say that raising the rewards for the losing team will not affect the boting problem in almost any way.

People need to stop getting hung up about bots. They're in every arena type setting in every game and shouldn't be an excuse to punish players who are just trying to slowly farm some gear to become competitive. Let the devs work out another way to get rid of them. Besides, in over 100 matches I cant say I've even seen one.

The problem with the PvP is that it's endlessly spammable and players who have been grinding it out since the first day of patch are just facerolling pickups leaving them to think "what's the point?" and then you wonder why queues are so long. We'd not done much PvP since patch so we gave it another try and faced the same 2xSMN SCH pickup tank team 6 times in a row. I bet their queue time was hideous once we gave up.

If it was my call I'd increase winning rewards to about 600 xp/marks (10x current amount) and losing rewards to about 250 xp/marks (25x current amount) and use a ticket system so you can only have 1 or 2 competitive matches per day, with any other entries just being a practice mode. But it's a bit late for that now...

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I completely disagree with your opinions on boters.

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Which opinion- that bots can result in a team losing or that we should not provide bots extra incentive (higher reward for loss) as it will increase the amount of bots we are seeing?

How about you just start playing better and winning? I can't believe this is a real thread.

Why not take levels or maybe even gear into account? If you are level 2 and fighting a lvl 30 team maybe you should get a bit if you lose. If you are level to and lose to a level two you probaby are fine as is.

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Originally Posted by realistic1

Which opinion- that bots can result in a team losing or that we should not provide bots extra incentive (higher reward for loss) as it will increase the amount of bots we are seeing?

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The later.

botting is already a problem and making losing more rewarding would make it worse. It also makes winning feel less rewarding when you know someone can get almost as much as you can without having to put any effort in, because it doesn't take any effort to lose.

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Originally Posted by Imapooonu

The later.

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When considering illegal actions (bots, hacks, ect,), it often comes down to the benefit outweighing the risk for many people. The risk seems fairly minimal right now as I see the same bots day after day even those that have been reported. Increasing the benefit (marks for losing) will certainly make that risk worth taking for a lot of people that are currently not botting right now.

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Originally Posted by realistic1

When considering illegal actions (bots, hacks, ect,), it often comes down to the benefit outweighing the risk for many people. The risk seems fairly minimal right now as I see the same bots day after day even those that have been reported. Increasing the benefit (marks for losing) will certainly make that risk worth taking for a lot of people that are currently not botting right now.

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It would be pretty ignorant of me to say your concern goes without merit. I'm not saying that, I'm only saying the concern seems slightly overblown.

I'd say if there were an increase in bot sightings, it would go from an appearance rate of 1% to 1.125% respectively.

Bot sightings from my experience and from the apparent experience of most other forum members is minimal, almost non-existent.

If the problem with bots were to increase ten fold because of an adjustment like this, then SE would have an entirely different problem.

"The losing side doesn't need incentive to keep playing."

Warhammer.
Aion.
Basically any two-side PvP game or system ever.

There is literally no argument against losers getting 10%, 25%, 50%, or even 100% of the rewards winners get other than "I won so I want to be geared better and win more."

If PvP is about the spirit of competition, any attitude, system, or argument that supports a system that at its core stacks the chance of winning in any scenario to one team or another, the spirit of competition is dead. In a community that's already prone to being toxic, this kind of mentality only furthers that.

Everyone wins, everyone loses. There's literally zero reason to reward one over the other when you need both to have a game, when the rewards translate into actual power.

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There is literally no argument against losers getting 10%, 25%, 50%, or even 100% of the rewards winners get other than "I won so I want to be geared better and win more."

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So are you saying we should give super bowl trophies to the losing teams in the NFL? because people who win don't deserve to be rewarded?

If gear is the problem for you, then play lv30 or lv40 cap where that's mostly taken out of the equation.