Reward Crafters Please!

I am sorry, I think a more direct and simple statement needs to be made to get things through to the devs.

Crafters are getting the shaft:

*We level a class, spending a lot of gil, for stuff that only sells to other crafters.

*Items are free for equal or better with actions.

*End game stuff is ether too week or costs too much!

*In the end; effort is not giving us enough reward.

Fixes:

*Give crafters items equal in power to dungeon drops to make.
-Reasoning, your leveling a class in JUST making items, nothing else, you should be rewarded.

*Give crafters items BETTER than dungeon drops, but make it require dungeon drop materials.
-Reasoning: Again, reward the ones who both try to do crafting and dungeon grinding for the good items. Perhaps make these look better, or look the same but have better stats?

*Make End-Game crafting items cost the same as the item level equivalent from drops, not MORE!
-Reasoning: We would have already payed for the vanity with the hours/days and gil getting the crafting class/es up to that level and getting the gear to even work on these items. If you can't make them yourself, they usually cost about 20k each piece on my server last I checked, and that adds up!

I was really hoping 2.1 would fix these problems and they didn't. So in the end, please, fix crafting.

-Bloodclaw

Once housing get cheaper then crafters will be able to make some Gil. If those high level crafters were smart they would buy up tons of Materials and wait.

Anybody who can afford a house is a crafter. They will not need outside assistance from other crafters.

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Originally Posted by Jennika

Anybody who can afford a house is a crafter. They will not need outside assistance from other crafters.

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Right!?

How are so many people missing this detail?

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Originally Posted by Jennika

Anybody who can afford a house is a crafter. They will not need outside assistance from other crafters.

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Exactly, how do you think these free companies got so rich in the first place?

Because they got to 50 before everyone else?

Most of them are omnicrafters. They don't need gear anymore except for their combat classes, and that all comes from dungeons anyway. Anything they can't get otherwise, they can make themselves or have one in their FC make it for them for free. 90% of the gil made by these 'multimillionaires' are in iL55 crafting equipment and selling it for a premium to 'new' 2.0 players and old 1.0 players that didn't stick around a sh*t game to hit L50 and bypass the 2.0 marketplace entirely, as well as in the L4 and L5 materia markets where they could quickly reprocess easily soulbound rings for a lot of gil before server seniority caught up to them.

They aren't a part of the marketplace economy. They don't even really craft for profit more than they have to. They don't buy anything, so the money just accumulates. Rapidly, in the case of the 2.0 economy.

Now, because everyone shat themselves in sticker shock from the 'hidden surprise' with FC housing (and rightfully, scared sh*rtless over the BS to come with player housing), everyone on the server is now making a concerted effort to power level, farm like mad, and dump every rock, twig, and dead animal on the market to make a buck.

So.. the only ones who will be able to afford housing on a Legacy server are the people who already can. The only reason nobody's buying is because the price was set SO high, that Yoshi is being forced by threat of mutiny (He's losing me and anyone I can take with me to Wildstar already) has to lower the price. They're just biding time to not pay more than they have to, defeating the purpose of the sh*tpants pricing scheme in the first place.

It's time to give up on the idea of crafters simply making BiS equipment.

To combat the slew of people that are lvl50, create a specialization system where you need to choose 1 DoL and DoH. Crafters and gatherers need a reason to rely on each other again. For DoL, give them an action to obtain new Rare materials/crystals they can harvest only on their chosen profession. Make the new action require some sort of player interaction that could not be accomplished by a typical bot.
As for DoH, they could then take these new rare crystals/materials and enhance any current gear, crafted or dropped, but only in their specialized class. Give the equipment a generic stat boost, but make it temporary, like a fade on repair. This type of gear enhancement would be ideal for players who are stuck on certain content.
To help remove gil make a recharge npc, that would require a portion of the original mats plus a fee to recharge.

Materia system for end game needs work. It's a nice concept from lv.1-49 but once everyone dings 50 it's pointless. They need to not only add materia slots to Tome, CT, and Coil gear but also add specialized materia that boost a jobs ability. Once this happens, crafters will have a purpose again.

Yoshi-P has recently said that crafted gear will never be BIS.

Speaking as someone who is about to get his last crafting class to 50 and loved it throughout version 1 (I actually preferred when you had to make every strap and buckle individually for your armour) I am just utterly resigned to it now being useless.

When new recipes come out I will jump on them for the initial week or two to make a quick buck (as furniture would have if housing weren't so unaffordable) and then forget I have a crafting class again. I might run crafting leves to make gil handing in HQs but that's about it.

So sad to have such a decent crafting system in place and absolutely no reason to use it.

It is good that the highest ilevel gear should be obtained though end content. But the cap between highest crafted gear (ilevel 70) and the highest raid gear (ilevel 90) is too high. There should be at least also crafted ilevel 80 gear (also good for people who complain about ct gear drop system).

I'm all for dungeon gear to be BiS, so long as it's difficult/rare enough to be justified. Running the 4 person lvl50 dungeons repeatedly is as easy as getting a craft to 50. Why they chose to give mythology from wp/ak I'll never understand.

:/
Every time I look at the item level and prices for the Darksteel equipment it really makes me irritated.

Still trying to find a viable nitch that already exists in the game. Anyone have any luck?

How about they remove dungeon drops and just have the dungeons drop materials. I remember in ff11 lets say to make a scorpion harness you had to get it from the nm. Not only will it make people do dungeons more but people would learn how to play their class.

Haven't I heard somewhere that the Glamour system is going to heavily involve crafting?

id say reward battle classes more with gil , i have levelled all of them to 50 , yet the most gil i had at a time was like 250k , how am i suppossed to buy all the expensive stuff you crafters make when the gil income for battle classes is too low ?

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Originally Posted by AmnesiaHaze

id say reward battle classes more with gil , i have levelled all of them to 50 , yet the most gil i had at a time was like 250k , how am i suppossed to buy all the expensive stuff you crafters make when the gil income for battle classes is too low ?

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I think the better question is why would you even buy gear if you're running dungeons nonstop. Unless you're extremely unlucky in dungeons in which case you could just run quests while waiting on DF and have more free gear dropped in your lap because apparently everyone in this world keeps around a piece of DPS gear a piece of tank gear and a piece of healer gear just in case someone comes by to help them paint their fence.

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Originally Posted by Xerius

I think the better question is why would you even buy gear if you're running dungeons nonstop. Unless you're extremely unlucky in dungeons in which case you could just run quests while waiting on DF and have more free gear dropped in your lap because apparently everyone in this world keeps around a piece of DPS gear a piece of tank gear and a piece of healer gear just in case someone comes by to help them paint their fence.

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id certainly buy some nice pieces of l70 crafted gear but never had enough gil to afford one

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Originally Posted by Xerius

I think the better question is why would you even buy gear if you're running dungeons nonstop. Unless you're extremely unlucky in dungeons in which case you could just run quests while waiting on DF and have more free gear dropped in your lap because apparently everyone in this world keeps around a piece of DPS gear a piece of tank gear and a piece of healer gear just in case someone comes by to help them paint their fence.

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I must say - I loled

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

I am sorry, I think a more direct and simple statement needs to be made to get things through to the devs.

Crafters are getting the shaft:

*We level a class, spending a lot of gil, for stuff that only sells to other crafters.

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The question should be why aren't you making this stuff yourself.

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*Items are free for equal or better with actions.

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HQ crafted gear has the same primary stats as green gear. It's sells very well and I've made a lot from it.

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*End game stuff is ether too week or costs too much!

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Well Yoshi said crafted gear will not compete with end-game gear. Plus with the infusion of tombs from rullete and beast quests, philo crafting mats have come down considerably in price.

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*Give crafters items equal in power to dungeon drops to make.
-Reasoning, your leveling a class in JUST making items, nothing else, you should be rewarded.

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Crafting HQ gear is the equivalent of rerunning dungeons to get the best gear for your current level. It's already in game.

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*Give crafters items BETTER than dungeon drops, but make it require dungeon drop materials.
-Reasoning: Again, reward the ones who both try to do crafting and dungeon grinding for the good items. Perhaps make these look better, or look the same but have better stats?

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So you want progression gear to go through crafting. Gatherers jack the crafters, who in turn jack the final customer. You want to go back to launch where people were charging 1 million gil for 2-star items but the average adventurer has 250k from the main story? No thank you. People can strive for end-game gear that has fixed costs and prices. Not speculative bubbles which is what the AH is. That would be quite simply, a disaster.

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*Make End-Game crafting items cost the same as the item level equivalent from drops, not MORE!
-Reasoning: We would have already payed for the vanity with the hours/days and gil getting the crafting class/es up to that level and getting the gear to even work on these items. If you can't make them yourself, they usually cost about 20k each piece on my server last I checked, and that adds up!

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And if you can make them yourself, then all it costs is your time. There is no end-game content for crafting. There is no royal diadem that needs to be made to slay Bahamut. No culinary knife to make the meal to feed a grumpy Titan, or spinning wheel to make Garuda that outfit she really wanted because she really is a misunderstood primal. The only purpose for end-game crafting gear is to craft items easier. That's it.

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*In the end; effort is not giving us enough reward.

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Enough reward. A failry subjective goal. What margin do you deem appropriate?
It all depends on perspective. Crafting has given me 1/3 of my income. Is that too much or too little? Personally, I think it's just fine.

Right now Crafters are the ones with access to alternate ilvl 70 armor sets.

HQ version of crafted ilvl 70 are equal to DL set in stats and can be stronger because crafted ilvl 70 sets can also be melded.

2.2 will introduce new crafts and due to ilvl 70 no longer being starter endgame level gear anymore they may introduce higher ilvl crafts.

Yes it does require more work than DL sets to get crafted HQ ilvl 70 gears but they are certainly better once you slap materia on them.

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Originally Posted by OldGeezer

Enough reward. A fairly subjective goal. Crafting has given me 1/3 of my income. Is that too much or too little? Personally, I think it's just fine.

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If that's enough for you then that's great... for you. Like you said it's subjective so maybe 1/3 is good enough for you but by your definition it probably isn't good enough for everyone else. Very few people are going to level all the crafting jobs to 50 so they can save themselves a few thousand gil in the future on gear. When your primary motive for doing something is to make money and you finish with it only being 1/3 of your total income, I think it's fair to say that there's not enough reward. Especially, once you consider (like you said) there is no "real" endgame for crafters. There is no other content that they can participate in.

Since 2.1 was released I've made 5 mil. Probably around 80-90% of that (hard to say, I wasn't keeping tabs on it) was from crafting and selling stuff on the MB. You can make a lot of money from crafting (on Phoenix at least), but don't expect to craft one piece of gear and get several hundred thousands of profit.

I'll be honest here. The only thing I want from crafting is for it to have a place in endgame, and for me that means being able to meld the best gear and having one or two BiS items being craftable from dungeon drops.

I don't give a damn about these problems with a ruined economy (especially when people can actually make money from it) and I certainly don't support forcing players to specialize in a single DoH like some have suggested. That would just be horrible.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

I

*Give crafters items equal in power to dungeon drops to make.

-Bloodclaw

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People keep getting this wrong! HQ crafted gear is EQUAL to aetherial dungeon drops. Aetherial occasionally has a few extra random stats, but the base stats are the same.
BUT crafter gear can be melded! and anything lvl 40 or below is VERY cheap to meld. This makes that crafter gear BETTER then dungeon drops.

But no one seems to know this? Why? Because apparently we crafters are freaking lazy. We complain about all the freebies for DoW/M classes but we're basically asking for freebies as well.

With an exception to the stuff that drops in darkhold (which can be melded), crafted gear has the potential to be the BiS stuff for everything i70 and under. Yes up to i70. Pentamelded two stars trump nearly everything i70. So what if we can't craft higher then that? With the lock outs and myth caps, its not like we can out grow that i70 gear that fast anyway.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Since 2.1 was released I've made 5 mil. Probably around 80-90% of that (hard to say, I wasn't keeping tabs on it) was from crafting and selling stuff on the MB. You can make a lot of money from crafting (on Phoenix at least), but don't expect to craft one piece of gear and get several hundred thousands of profit.

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This right here, I couldn't agree more. While I do think that crafting is broken everyone is always looking for the big burst gains. Most people that make money in MMO's do so by working with items that sell faster rather than items that sell for more and a lot of people don't realize this.

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Originally Posted by cearka

People keep getting this wrong! HQ crafted gear is EQUAL to aetherial dungeon drops. Aetherial occasionally has a few extra random stats, but the base stats are the same.
BUT crafter gear can be melded! and anything lvl 40 or below is VERY cheap to meld. This makes that crafter gear BETTER then dungeon drops.

But no one seems to know this? Why? Because apparently we crafters are freaking lazy. We complain about all the freebies for DoW/M classes but we're basically asking for freebies as well.

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First of all, lvl 40 and below gear, in the face of quests that give out gear, and the speed of leveling, isn't going to be in demand because they are outgrown so quickly.

Second: You talk of laziness, pentamelded gear isn't exactly cheap or easy to attempt to create, You're against large odds with each meld. Many Players go the easier and cheaper route of Tomestone gear,which costs no gil to do so. So again, your pentamelded stuff can have a large price tag, but it won't be selling quick,it will be open to undercutting, and if you take it for yourself, will not raise your ilvl, meaning PF groups that will be out of your reach.

But you say the Crafters are lazy? I disagree. It takes some serious dedication to make gear that is functionally obsolete.

Why not add an item/s that can be crafted by dungeon drops and high level gathering materials for the purpose of using it on dungeon dropped gear that allows them to add materia to the dungeon dropped gear? You can have different craft recipes for the various dungeon gear drops.

I'm saying all these crafters that complain and moan that we're not making good enough gear are lazy, as there obviously not really fully thinking it out.

1. Quests all drop nq garbage. running dungeons gets you gear, usually one or two drops at a time. In the time it takes to run one, maybe two dungeons, I can craft a full set of gear for every 5 levels of any class I'm leveling. I can two slot meld it (don't have to pentameld) incredibly cheap, because yoru only gonna be using I and IIs for anything anyway. Usually even teh first overmeld only takes 2-3 tries, and costs what? a few hundred gil? But no. apparently that's to much effort. Yes you can get by with just drops. meanwhile, I'm facestopping every DOW/M class to 50 because Ive made resuable BiS gear for every 5 levels of progression. I'm not that player slowing down every run because I've got 4 slots that are 20 levels below the dungeon. I speed up the run because I'm very well geared for every encounter.
2. There is money to made. Just because we're not all gillionaires doesn't mean crafting is broken. I'm not making millions a day, but I'm making more then enough to be self sufficient.
3. While some people grind dungosn for philo over and over again to get there i70, I've crafted two stars with the self sufficient money Ive made for every class, as soon as it hits 50, BAM, its an i70 class, ready to work on higher content towards end game gear.
4. besides coil and extreme primals, rarely is there anything higher then i70 in PF. And if I wanna raise my ilvl beyond i70, it's fairly easy to do when all I have to do is replace a few pieces.


People complain that crafting is either worthless, or the worthwhile stuff is too expensive. this is just not true.
DoW/M can spend lots of time grinding dungeons for stuff. DoH can spend time makign money, then making better stuff. Either way takes TIME. For some reason crafters just don't want to spend time after they hit 50. But getting to 50 on a crafter is a fraction of the time to get to 50 on a DoW/M, if your smart about it. And when you get to 50, you can do alot of things if you continue to invest TIME. dont' expect everything to just magically be handed to you when you hit 50. DoW/M don't magically get their relic. that have to do 5 fights and dungeon.

Is crafting perfect? no of course there are things they can do to make it better. But its not as bad as many people make it out to be once you've researched it abit more. Its already greatly improved in 2.1 with the materia and philo market crashing. making stuff has gotten easier. I've leveled and geared every craft, and I continue to invest time in it, and I get rewarded for the TIME I put in after hitting 50.

and two stars aren't hard to craft. do a little math and abit of research, compensate for lower gear with food and hq materials if you have to. it takes all me all of an hour of crafting to make 50k gil which is enough to by 9 philo mats usually. everything else is easily gathered or cheap. then when my stuff sells the next day, I log on and craft a two star in two minutes.

mean while someone else could run duty roulettes for a couple days or grind WP for 2 hours to get that body piece or whatever. Different work, but more or less same time spent. while people are grinding garuda hm over and over again hoping for there drop so they aren't that dude running into titan HM with a crappy i55 weapon, usually in multiple fail groups that take a few hours only to maybe get a drop only to have it ninja'd by someone else who can need, I have better crafted weapon take took me all of two minutes to make for my entire relic quest. just all a matter of perspective.

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Originally Posted by Xerius

If that's enough for you then that's great... for you. Like you said it's subjective so maybe 1/3 is good enough for you but by your definition it probably isn't good enough for everyone else. Very few people are going to level all the crafting jobs to 50 so they can save themselves a few thousand gil in the future on gear. When your primary motive for doing something is to make money and you finish with it only being 1/3 of your total income, I think it's fair to say that there's not enough reward. Especially, once you consider (like you said) there is no "real" endgame for crafters. There is no other content that they can participate in.

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If I spent 1/2 my time doing crafting, then I would say it wouldn't be worth it. But the truth is that I spend around 1/4 of my time crafting. Aside from crafting materials I make the items in the crafting logs once and move on to the next recipe. I sell the HQ items on the AH and I've made a lot of money. That's where the 1/3 comes from. If I spent more time on crafting I could make alot more money. I am one of those people who is grinding all classes to 50. It contributes more to your margins than a mere few thousand. Try several tens of thousands. It adds up and not just at end level gear.

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Originally Posted by OldGeezer

The question should be why aren't you making this stuff yourself.

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ok you basically verbalized all my thoughts...better. all this... I agree.

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Originally Posted by OldGeezer

Enough reward. A failry subjective goal. What margin do you deem appropriate?
It all depends on perspective. Crafting has given me 1/3 of my income. Is that too much or too little? Personally, I think it's just fine.

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You are right. It is subjective, like virtually everything else in this [or any other] game. But in my opinion 1/3 is too little. If you think about it, when u incorporate a crafting system into a video game, isnt it basically implied that its purpose is more economical than anything else? you could literally make an mmo where items and gear are acquired solely from killing enemies. and this would take out the need for money. but incorporating money * and crafters* seems to me to be intended for the economy.

but like you said, in the end its all subjective.

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiB06

You are right. It is subjective, like virtually everything else in this [or any other] game. But in my opinion 1/3 is too little. If you think about it, when u incorporate a crafting system into a video game, isnt it basically implied that its purpose is more economical than anything else? you could literally make an mmo where items and gear are acquired solely from killing enemies. and this would take out the need for money. but incorporating money * and crafters* seems to me to be intended for the economy.

but like you said, in the end its all subjective.

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But like I said, I don't spend too much time at it. Crafting is about 1/4 of my time yet it gives me 1/3 of my income while questing/leves/beast quests/dungeon grinding gives me 2/3 of my income, but it's 3/4 of my time. For me, crafting is by far the most profitable venture. If I look at the time spent towards all other endeavors, crafting gives me 1.5 times the income compared to the time spent in everything else. I've made 40k in one night of selling HQ items. Not much else in the game allows you to do that.

Seriously, I'm visualizing a dev meeting, pre 2.0, where the devs are discussing the crafting system and how they should go about it's implementation. Now place yourself in the room and consider what your response would be when Yoshi looks at everyone and says, "I envision a crafting system where wealthy players can max out all professions in a week without ever crafting a single item". I know what my response would be, what would yours be?

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Originally Posted by Starplayer

Seriously, I'm visualizing a dev meeting, pre 2.0, where the devs are discussing the crafting system and how they should go about it's implementation. Now place yourself in the room and consider what your response would be when Yoshi looks at everyone and says, "I envision a crafting system where wealthy players can max out all professions in a week without ever crafting a single item". I know what my response would be, what would yours be?

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Yes
I wounder why they changed the way the crafting leves worked.
In 1.0 the crafter got all the mats he needed from the leve (didn't need to buy it from AH) but needed to craft the item himself.

Seeing that now the name of the crafter show up on the item, there should be a name check which compare the name on the item with the name of the character to be sure that the character crafted it himself. That would be much better than the current system, where a crafter can just buy his exp with gil without crafting a single item.