PVP - Another system that discourages use of the armory system

Another form of content and system added, and yet another thing that discourages the use of the armory system entirely. You only get 30 action points PER CHARACTER, and it takes longer to rank up and get action points the higher rank you are. This means that you won't be able to play all your jobs at 100% efficiency in PVP on single character, and will be severely gimped in PVP.

A lot of the skills are mandatory, playing without some of them are completely insane. As a single example, not having attunment as a WHM/SCH against a team that does is an instant loss. Min/maxing matters far more in PVP combat when you're against other players, and lacking something they don't have is basically unplayable in most situations. The 5k marks cost to respec your Action points is far too high, it's the only way to play every job in PVP, but it's still far too expensive.

Please change the AP system so that respeccing is free, 5k marks is too much to ask when I get less than 40 marks per win with +5% marks gained FC buff up. There is zero reason why we should have to pay to respec our points spent in a game with an armory system.

I would also like to talk about gear, it's incredibly grindy to gear, and you're basically only going to be able to gear a single job up in a reasonable amount of time. While you aren't locked out entirely like CT, Coil, or myths, you're still heavily encouraged to play a single job(again..) over multiple on a single character. Please allow us to trade in gear for 100% of the marks back and swap between jobs at will whenever we feel like.

I think this will make PVP more enjoyable and let people try every class and every aspect, increasing the longevity of PVP and earning you more money by people staying subbed for longer because they're having fun for longer. Thanks for reading!

I agree. It would be nice if there was a PvP rank and a class rank.
Example: When you PvP with Arcanist (SMN/SCH) you gain exp towards your overall PvP rank and your Arcanist rank.
If you switch to Pugilist (MNK) you gain exp towards your overall PvP rank and your Pugilist rank.

I thought you were quitting like...2 months ago? lol. This is a PvE game with systems designed around PvE and they even threw in additional skills just for PvP play (while "rebalancing" PvE set.) You can play your jobs to 100% efficiency and nothing is gimped in PvP other than the usual x is better than y that all MMOs go through with PvP at the start.

Yes, skills are mandatory because....they're crucial counters to x class, that's how it is in every MMORPG with PvP ever. Also, BLM sleeping is much more of a "instant lost/win" situation you forgot to mention. Once again, like every other MMORPG with PvP and rewards/items tied specifically to PvP, you're expected to grind for it. So while the system is far from perfect, the one thing that isn't an issue is the armory system.

That is if anything the last thing that could be wrong with this system.

5k marks is ridiculous for a reset. They should make it GC seals instead.

I'm kinda glad each job doesn't have to rank up separately though. I'd rather do a reset for each job with seals then level them individually. The system definitely makes you focus on 1 job at a time.

Didn't look into how this was set up, but that's exactly what I'd expect. Seriously wish they'd quit being outright hostile towards the armory system.

Gearing all your classes taking time I'm perfectly fine with, don't think alts should get any sort of bonus to their gearing rate - However, they shouldn't be limited as they are on the PVE side where you have to gear in succession and can't do it in parallel as in every other MMO, which they don't seem to be with PVP. So that's fine.

The PVP actions though. In essence a heavy currency cost when you want to switch classes? Not ok. Diluting your points to have one PVP action per class is not the answer. That's just completely pointless. It's like making it cost 30000 gil when you want to play your bard instead of your black mage. 30000 again if you'd like to switch back. You could of course also get the option to switch for free, but only with half of the abilities.

In before: "You don't need all of the PVP actions to do well in PVP! You don't need any gear at all to do extreme primals! You don't need to wipe your behind after you've been to the bathroom!" - Maybe so. But it will prevent you from looking stupid and it will prevent people from avoiding you: In PVP, since nobody would want to group with your alt that doesn't have any PVP actions, in the extreme primals pug that thinks DL gear is on the low end, after you've been to the bathroom when... well that's self explanatory. What you should really ask yourself is: Why does the game need this restrictive stance towards the armory system to begin with?

I know the majority just plays one class, but they really ought to at least consider the ones that want to level and play more.

Reservations for having misunderstood how the PVP actions are earned.

Even if it would be a very nasty grind I assume, I would rather have had class ranks instead of a universal character rank.

Once again Yoshi says one thing, and do something else!!

He said it Clear, PVP will not have any impact on pve, and other way around..
Seems like dev team changes mind in same rate as maintance's

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Originally Posted by Phai

Once again Yoshi says one thing, and do something else!!

He said it Clear, PVP will not have any impact on pve, and other way around..
Seems like dev team changes mind in same rate as maintance's

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and where does pvp impact your gameplay ? dont tell me your mad you cant use pvp abilities in pve, or that they arent part of your basic skill arsenal... you can ignore pvp and do whatever you want in pve without any impact. i dont see how people doing pvp in wolfs den would ruin your coil run or any pve content for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Warthain

and where does pvp impact your gameplay ? dont tell me your mad you cant use pvp abilities in pve, or that they arent part of your basic skill arsenal... you can ignore pvp and do whatever you want in pve without any impact. i dont see how people doing pvp in wolfs den would ruin your coil run or any pve content for that matter.

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Im not mad, i did not roll lancer..
I was just making a coment on what the devs says, and what they do.

I see Shiyo is back, and the complaints have already started.
2 months, she'll be quitting. Again. For the 576th time.

Full circle.

PvP doesn't discourage use of the armory system, nor does anything else in the game. I'm really sick of people saying this. I'll agree that PvP respec costs too much, but that doesn't mean you're discouraged from playing more than one job. There are no lockouts on rewards, you can get them as fast as you can earn them, and starting pvp gear is crafted, inexpensive, and available to anyone.

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He said it Clear, PVP will not have any impact on pve, and other way around..

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Uhm, PvP doesn't negatively impact PvE. In fact it probably benefits it from the money crafters are making selling the starting PvP gear. It does not hurt you not to participate in PvP, nor has anything been nerfed because of PvP. Mechanic changes for PvP are only in effect in PvP and not PvE.

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And if you think this wave of balancing didn't sneak in some adjustments for certain PvE abilities then you need to look harder. BLM's Scathe is the prime example of this and if you can't see why then I understand why you believe what you do. It's not overly drastic changes but they are there.

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You don't know why this or that ability was nerfed. Personally I would argue that almost nobody used scathe as it is and it doesn't impact PvE in any way whatsoever.

Please make resetting your skills in PVP free.

WTF is SE thinking. 5k marks for a reset. That's like 180~ matches just to reset your points.

Stupid grind coupled with yet another nonsensical application of the armory system.

They spend so much time on making nice features and then totally fudge it with stupid decisions.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

PvP doesn't discourage use of the armory system, nor does anything else in the game. I'm really sick of people saying this. I'll agree that PvP respec costs too much, but that doesn't mean you're discouraged from playing more than one job.

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Putting a heavy price on respeccing actually discourages you to swap to a different class, yes. There's simply no arguing. The sole purpose of the fee is to make you reconsider if you really want to swap and make it hard to do so. Even as a one time deal it discourages you. Swapping on a daily basis to play several classes? Definitely discourages you from doing that. In fact, it's probably not even possible with the limited amount of hours we have at our disposal.

Oh, there's resorting to the "you don't need to have any PvP actions to PvP", but I think we've covered that.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

PvP doesn't discourage use of the armory system, nor does anything else in the game. I'm really sick of people saying this.

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armory system character : I have to play 200~ matches if I want to play a different job. EVERY TIME.
Non armory : log in different character

To you, this makes perfect sense and doesn't discourage the armory system. k

EDIT: Beat to it.

Once again:

You have a level 50 BLM. You want to play an alt in the Wolves' Den. Right on! Here's what you can do:

- Use the armory system. Level a MNK on the same character you have your BLM on. Every time you want to switch classes, you need to play 180 matches to afford it.

- Create a new alt character and level your MNK there. You can now play both classes as you please, all it takes is the 30 seconds you need to relog. Needless to say, not having to spend 180 matches worth of currency simply on respeccing will actually allow you to buy some PvP gear if you pick this option.

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Originally Posted by StarMarmot

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then don't play pvp?

your pvp stats have no effect what-so-ever on your pve, the truth is pvp is affecting pve for you because you are letting it.

you aren't forced to do respec, one battle as a different class without your precious pvp skills is not going to kill you.

its like re-speccing every time you want to switch between summoner and scholar...insanity if you keep mindlessly doing it.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

you aren't forced to do respec, one battle as a different class without your precious pvp skills is not going to kill you.

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You are, if you want to be competitive. Just like if you want to be competitive in PvE, you have to switch your attribute points as a SCH/SMN.

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its like re-speccing every time you want to switch between summoner and scholar...insanity if you keep mindlessly doing it.

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"you aren't forced to do respec, one battle as a different class without your few points of int/mnd is not going to kill you. "

It is the same. And worse, for pvp. And pvp points are harder to get than GC seals. Stop being an apologist for horrible systems.

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Originally Posted by casker

You are, if you want to be competitive. Just like if you want to be competitive in PvE, you have to switch your attribute points as a SCH/SMN.



"you aren't forced to do respec, one battle as a different class without your few points of int/mnd is not going to kill you. "

It is the same. And worse, for pvp. And pvp points are harder to get than GC seals. Stop being an apologist for horrible systems.

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i've seen worse systems. this one is bad too, but hitting your head against it would be like doing the same to a brick wall. not the best idea.

and if your being competitive in pvp, its most likely better to stick to one class anyway.

also i see them reducing the cost in the future. nothing is permanent

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

then don't play pvp?

your pvp stats have no effect what-so-ever on your pve, the truth is pvp is affecting pve for you because you are letting it.

you aren't forced to do respec, one battle as a different class without your precious pvp skills is not going to kill you.

its like re-speccing every time you want to switch between summoner and scholar...insanity if you keep mindlessly doing it.

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I'm not saying it's affecting my PvE. In fact I don't think anybody is concerned about that because PvP has nothing to do with PvE, that's very clear cut.

And no, I'm not forced to pay to respec. I can do one battle (or in my case, I had a bit more than that in mind) without my precious PvP skills. I can run Garuda Extreme butt naked without my precious gear as well just as I can get to work in the morning without using my precious legs. I can just roll down the stairs, get down on the muddy concrete and crawl my way there. That's how fun it is to play a competitive game with a serious handicap.

The question is, wouldn't it be better and more pleasant for everybody if you could respec as you wished?

But I guess you think the respec cost is totally justified and great and all that because... I really don't know why you'd think so. Fill me in please.

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i've seen worse systems.

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I don't care if "there are worse systems." It's irrelevant to FFXIV. I want the system in THIS GAME to not suck.

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and if your being competitive in pvp, its most likely better to stick to one class anyway.

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Telling people what they "should do" is irrelevant to the quality of the system. The ENTIRE POINT of the armory system is to NOT PIGEONHOLE YOU INTO ONE CLASS and yet that's what it's best at apparently.

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also i see them reducing the cost in the future. nothing is permanent

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I want them to get it done faster. Being an apologist won't make them do anything.

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Originally Posted by StarMarmot

I really don't know why you'd think so. Fill me in please.

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i would, but i also think it would completely kill the purpose of having a locked point allocation in the first place. its meant so players are forced to think when allocating. same goes for the 30 stat points for PVE: think before you spec. i don't think they were thinking too hard when they thought out the idea. rather they had a basic concept, which was most likely to make people think before they spend. but it was poorly thought out..and thus, forces people by limiting them to a certain class...which does affect the armory system for pvp.

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Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

I agree. It would be nice if there was a PvP rank and a class rank.
Example: When you PvP with Arcanist (SMN/SCH) you gain exp towards your overall PvP rank and your Arcanist rank.
If you switch to Pugilist (MNK) you gain exp towards your overall PvP rank and your Pugilist rank.

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this would have made more sense. this does the same thing without locking you out.

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Originally Posted by casker

I want them to get it done faster. Being an apologist won't make them do anything.

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kicking and screaming won't either. i find it harder to think when i'm panicking over one aspect of a large system that i dislike. i would rather do so.

got enough crap IRL to complain about.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

this would have made more sense. this does the same thing without locking you out.

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Yep, agreed. What that guy said would be ideal, since it would allow you to actually "level" the alt you wish to play, not simply have a rank 30 in working condition at the press of a button.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

kicking and screaming won't (help) either.

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Only because SQE is too stubborn to do what's good for the players. They'd rather implement unrealistic poopsock inducing grinds, just like with the housing.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

PvP doesn't discourage use of the armory system, nor does anything else in the game. I'm really sick of people saying this. I'll agree that PvP respec costs too much, but that doesn't mean you're discouraged from playing more than one job. There are no lockouts on rewards, you can get them as fast as you can earn them, and starting pvp gear is crafted, inexpensive, and available to anyone.

Uhm, PvP doesn't negatively impact PvE. In fact it probably benefits it from the money crafters are making selling the starting PvP gear. It does not hurt you not to participate in PvP, nor has anything been nerfed because of PvP. Mechanic changes for PvP are only in effect in PvP and not PvE.

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This system does discourage the armory system to from reaching it's full potential though. By design, it allows you to change jobs on the fly and fulfill a specific role that the party needs. This concept is watered down essentially because players are unable to properly gear up or respec on the alternate job (to the highest level) no matter how much effort they want to put in because they simply aren't allowed. This flaw is exasperated when it's completely bypassed by leveling a different character. Those players put in slightly more effort due to having to redo the main story by once that is accomplished they have a completely different job that is at the max potential* (potential calculated by the effort they put in due to not being blocked from advancing).

And if you think this wave of balancing didn't sneak in some adjustments for certain PvE abilities then you need to look harder. BLM's Scathe is the prime example of this and if you can't see why then I understand why you believe what you do. It's not overly drastic changes but they are there.

5k Marks is enough for two main pieces of gear. I would be better off making a new character, leveling monk to 50, and gearing my Monk and WHM separately for PVP. This is yet another system that tells me "lol make another character" and to ignore the fantastic armory system.

SE, please realize that the armory system exists when you design content, systems, and gearing. You keep neglecting it and pretending it doesn't exist. You keep designing content that mimics WOW, but WOW uses a 1 class per character system, and this game does not. You have not fixed a single problem with the armory system from release and continue to make it irrelevant.

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5k Marks is enough for two main pieces of gear. I would be better off making a new character, leveling monk to 50, and gearing my Monk and WHM separately for PVP.

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No, you wouldn't, because you wouldn't earn seals any faster by playing alts than you would by playing on one character. In fact, playing alts would slow you down, because your rank on each alt would end up rising slower than if you played different jobs on the same character.

For this reason, PvP does not really discourage armory system use. The only real issue is with PvP actions. You'll only get a maximum of 30 AP, so that means 10 actions learned or fewer upgraded ones (though most of the upgrades aren't too worth it). Some of those actions can be used by many classes (purify is available to all) though, so the impact isn't that major.

The real reason for the "normalize pvp gear" thread comes to light here. You're just qqing that you can't immediately get rewards for every single job at the exact same time.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

5k Marks is enough for two main pieces of gear. I would be better off making a new character, leveling monk to 50, and gearing my Monk and WHM separately for PVP. This is yet another system that tells me "lol make another character" and to ignore the fantastic armory system.

SE, please realize that the armory system exists when you design content, systems, and gearing. You keep neglecting it and pretending it doesn't exist. You keep designing content that mimics WOW, but WOW uses a 1 class per character system, and this game does not. You have not fixed a single problem with the armory system from release and continue to make it irrelevant.

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If they were, as you say, "completely ignoring the fantastic armory system," then why would they even give you and option to reset your AP?

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

No, you wouldn't, because you wouldn't earn seals any faster by playing alts than you would by playing on one character. In fact, playing alts would slow you down, because your rank on each alt would end up rising slower than if you played different jobs on the same character.

For this reason, PvP does not really discourage armory system use. The only real issue is with PvP actions. You'll only get a maximum of 30 AP, so that means 10 actions learned or fewer upgraded ones (though most of the upgrades aren't too worth it). Some of those actions can be used by many classes (purify is available to all) though, so the impact isn't that major.

The real reason for the "normalize pvp gear" thread comes to light here. You're just qqing that you can't immediately get rewards for every single job at the exact same time.

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Now you're doing the "you don't need the PvP actions" song and dance. At least that's what I guess you're trying to say with the "most upgrades aren't worth it", "some actions can be used by many classes" and the "impact isn't that major". It's like if you're raiding and get asked by your raid leader to play SCH for the evening. Your raid group has been struggling with a boss for several nights, but you're not going to pay the GC seals for the stat bonus reset and you're not going to buy any new stat food just for one night, because the impact of 20 main stat and buff food isn't that major, right? It's only about the equivalent of removing a piece of high level gear. Some people just aren't bothered at all with being the best they can be, and that's ok. The concerns brought up here are by people that like to make the most out of their character though.

If we want to optimize, spending an evening playing one round as a WHM, then two rounds as BLM and then rounding the day off with a few matches as DRG, that alone would be enough marks to buy a full set of gear pretty much, just in respec costs. So yes, while you wouldn't earn seals faster by playing on an alt character, you would definitely earn gear faster. Unless you want to play a warrior with 3 points in MND, 7 INT and 2 DEX with two MNK actions and one WHM action. But the loss there won't have much of an impact I guess.

While he mentioned gear trade-ins, I don't really think Shiyo wants "rewards for every single job at the exact same time". What he's MAINLY asking for is equal opportunity to use all his classes EFFECTIVELY. Without heavy penalties such as respec costs that take an entire day or more to grind out.

At any rate, the PvP system seems much better than the PvE counterpart in that regard. The only problem is the PvP actions and the respec cost. While I don't really agree with a respec cost at all, I'd be fine with something like 3-5 wins worth of seals I guess, but NOT 180.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

A lot of the skills are mandatory, playing without some of them are completely insane.

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And this is precisely why I think it's absolutely idiotic to tie player skills to PvP progression. The gear disparity is more than enough of a disadvantage for folk just starting. That you can't even play with a fully functional skill set when you start is absurd. I don't know what Squeenix was smoking when they decided that, but it needs to change.

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Originally Posted by Neo_Genesis

If they were, as you say, "completely ignoring the fantastic armory system," then why would they even give you and option to reset your AP?

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Completely ignoring might not be the most accurate description, no. It's more of an explicit opposition, because the option you mention entails spending a day or two grinding if you want to make use of it.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

And this is precisely why I think it's absolutely idiotic to tie player skills to PvP progression. The gear disparity is more than enough of a disadvantage for folk just starting. That you can't even play with a fully functional skill set when you start is absurd. I don't know what Squeenix was smoking when they decided that, but it needs to change.

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While that's true (disadvantage when starting), I like the concept. Earning a new kick-ass skill feels a lot better than replacing your gauntlets to gain 3 vitality and 2 strength.

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Originally Posted by Neo_Genesis

If they were, as you say, "completely ignoring the fantastic armory system," then why would they even give you and option to reset your AP?

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It's essentially ignoring it exists with a 5k cost.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

It's essentially ignoring it exists with a 5k cost.

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No, I disagree. If they were, you would be able to allot your AP one time ever and be stuck with whatever spec. you decided roll on your "main" job.

You should be able to unlock all abilities eventually and just have a capacity limit in any one "build" which you can swap about at will. I thought that was the point in the 10 PvP actions slots when I first saw them, since the maximum any job gets is 7. Something like each point of improved (stat) is one slot, each point of improved ability is one slot too, etc.

SE needs to start you out with a PVP skill set only and kick the PVE stuff to the side.

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Originally Posted by StarMarmot

EDIT: Beat to it.

Once again:

You have a level 50 BLM. You want to play an alt in the Wolves' Den. Right on! Here's what you can do:

- Use the armory system. Level a MNK on the same character you have your BLM on. Every time you want to switch classes, you need to play 180 matches to afford it.

- Create a new alt character and level your MNK there. You can now play both classes as you please, all it takes is the 30 seconds you need to relog. Needless to say, not having to spend 180 matches worth of currency simply on respeccing will actually allow you to buy some PvP gear if you pick this option.

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Why not play Monk in PvP and earn the skills for Monk skills with earning the PvP points with Monk?
Like you level up in PvE a BLM to 50 and still also need to level up Monk to 50 to earn all PvE skills for Monk?