WHM could use tweaks to stoneskin

-WHM is not that hot for healing Coil compared to scholar and especially twintania where SCH pulls far more weight due to death sentence and other mechanics

-WHM's only % based heal has an exceedingly long CD

-WHM's mana management is extremely poor

-WHM draws at least 2x the threat of SCH

How to fix it:

-Stoneskin instant cast

-Stoneskin 25s CD

-Stoneskin refunds 150% of the mana it cost to cast when the absorb is completely used up (restores 133 mana every 25s)

-All threat caused by the WHM heals reduced by 10%


Stoneskin will also feel better and give WHM a more diverse rotation instead of being way too situational

So you can't Stoneskin the entire party? I like Stoneskin the way it is.

Another detaunt would be nice, but I share the above posters opinion with Stoneskin

I would love some enmity reduction on Whm cures. 10% is likely enough, or just do away w/ enmity generation on overcure amounts.
Stoneskin on a shorter cast time, I don't know about instant cast, but shorter.
Really though, cure 3 fixes seem more useful, reworking it altogether so it's a spell that gets some use would be nice.

I of course don't Whm on anything like a regular basis, but the people that Whm for stuff with me comment on most of this.

I say we just remove all WHM threat mechanics, give them all of Scholar's heals, and call it a day. After all, that's what we're really asking for here, right?

Stoneskin could be used as a tanking tool. Maybe it could boost a tanks threat generation? I know this would limit the overall usefulness of it being cast on a dps but alas if nothing else a shorter cast time and MP reduction to cost will do for me. The MP return idea sounds VERY interesting. Overhealing on targets not recieving any damage should not generate threat at all... why would a mob be getting angry with a healer for essentially doing nothing? Threat generation doesn't make sense lol. Thank gawd for shroud. Speaking of which; they could slightly reduce the cd on shroud. That could add a new lvl of depth to healing as a WHM. more MP regen means more heals which mean more threat thus consequently meaning more threat management through the timed use of shrouds... Just some ideas to throw out there.

I must've missed the memo on Whms not being hot for Coil lol.

Debuff on Death Sentence aside, your points are pretty moot.

Aggro really shouldn't be an issue, unless you're massively overhealing or your tanks are bad. Mana can be a pain, but the more experience you get in Coil the better you get there. I can do 1-4 with just shroud nowadays and there's a reason you always got a Bard with you.

There's no reason to make SS an instant cast (Heck, the longass animation prevents it from being anywhere near instant anyway), or having it return Mana. It's fine as it is. Cure III is what needs looking at and changing it into something that at least partially is based on the targets HP% like Lustrate would be pretty neat.

I will say I preferred SS from 1.0, much more effective, but it had a cooldown. Of course, shroud of saints from 1.0 doesn't exist, so a lot of the utility from a SS like that would be killed.

PS: I would punch a baby for Blessed Mind back.

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Originally Posted by Freakiie

I must've missed the memo on Whms not being hot for Coil lol. [snip]

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I agree with Freakiie, after healing coil for a couple of weeks as a WHM, I've never had any issue with pulling aggro from the tank mid-battle if I'm not intentionally trying to mess with people. Sure, adds may "aggro" on spawn due to regen or similar, but unless the tanks are fucking it up, I doubt a WHM generates enough aggro to pull it to her. We have SoS that halves aggro at each cast, and it's not like SoS is a long CD ability. Infirmary from Death Sentence is a rough debuff to deal with though.

As for the mana issue, I've rarely gone under 30% unless I mess up and die. This being without manasong and even up to T5. On the other hand, I've popped SoS at almost every CD so my pool hovers between 70 and 90% assuming the team doesn't get massively spiked over and over again.

Although I'd love to have a shorter cast time on SS or maybe even make it last for longer using a stack of SS charges or something neat, it's far from something that we desperately need. I'd much rather have the devs work on Cure III.

Try doing Pug HM titan with your relic+1 as whm. So dumb. You can barely cast anything and still be 2nd on hate list for 50% of the fight.

Whm threat seems to be tied to their weapon level? Or perhaps healing per cast? Like a whm who heals 750 per medica would pull more threat in 1 cast then a whm who heals 500 per medica but does it twice.

The problem with whm threat is it sullies their niche of being a burst aoe healer. Because we have to hold back on aoe healing for 50% of the fight.

Yes Twintania does kind of make you feel your whm tools are inferior to the SCH. >_>

Obviously a not Relic tank is going to have a harder time keeping aggro against a +1 Relic. I've done Titan HM myself plenty and unless the Whm starts spamming Medica II during the early phases (like M2 for first stomp, seriously?) I've never seen the tank have issues holding aggro. The problem comes when you spam Medica II way too early causing massive overheal on the entire party.

If stoneskin were to be instant cast wouldn't that just solidify scholar as the stronger healer?

Lustrate > stoneskin (instant cast ver) > lustrate, all the while you can move and heal with Eos/Selene.

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Originally Posted by Schmitty

If stoneskin were to be instant cast wouldn't that just solidify scholar as the stronger healer?

Lustrate > stoneskin (instant cast ver) > lustrate, all the while you can move and heal with Eos/Selene.

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More like adlo>stoneskin> *boss uses death sentence*>lustrate

Yes the problem with stoneskin for tank healing is its cast time. 3 seconds too long to be used as a tank migitation tool. You don't have time to pre stoneskin and time a cure 2 .Normally the boss breaks the stoneskin before using its tank killer ability.

A sch can always get adloquium off before tank killer and use lustrate to heal straight after the damage taken.

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Originally Posted by Freakiie

Obviously a not Relic tank is going to have a harder time keeping aggro against a +1 Relic. I've done Titan HM myself plenty and unless the Whm starts spamming Medica II during the early phases (like M2 for first stomp, seriously?) I've never seen the tank have issues holding aggro. The problem comes when you spam Medica II way too early causing massive overheal on the entire party.

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Why is whm relic+1 unfairly punished with enmity and undergeared tanks compared to sch with relic +1.
Makes solo healing impossible in certain situations.
Btw you pull lots of hate with just medica too.

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Originally Posted by Schmitty

If stoneskin were to be instant cast wouldn't that just solidify scholar as the stronger healer?

Lustrate > stoneskin (instant cast ver) > lustrate, all the while you can move and heal with Eos/Selene.

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Not even close, I'm talking about WHM specific changes, meaning these changes would be strictly tied to the improved stoneskin passive that WHMs exclusively obtain.

I disagree. I use stoneskin a lot. I would not like it to be on a 25 second cool down. Mainly because I like to keep my dps with it on just in case an error happens. It would take forever to get everyone and keep everyone buffed up. Plus it is already insta cast with swiftcast.

I've never had a mana issue. You should also learn to use shroud a lot more. If your tank is good at keeping enmity then you'll never have to worry about it. There is also a thing called x-ethers and food to give you more mp.
For the most part white mages and scholars are superior working together. There are some instances where Whm outshines a Sch and there are the times when Sch outshines Whm. This happens. There doesn't always have to be an instance where your choice class "has to be" the best in all cases.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

More like adlo>stoneskin> *boss uses death sentence*>lustrate

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Ahh that makes much more sense than my proposed combination. I haven't yet faced T5 but I can see that being very strong.

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Originally Posted by Nofacekiller

Not even close, I'm talking about WHM specific changes, meaning these changes would be strictly tied to the improved stoneskin passive that WHMs exclusively obtain.

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Would these changes include bringing to stoneskin percentage back to 10%?

I am not fully qualified to state that they are balanced as I haven't leveled my whm to 50. I do see very strong synergy between a Sch and Whm, and I know that when I heal as Sch without my trusty Whm (Sch/Sch) I miss Medica dearly.

With the current setup, it seems both sch and whm are needed in any 8 man, that itself seems the biggest sign that both classes are balanced.

Just my 2 cents.

I don't really get why so many people consider sch so superior over whm for Twintania, I typically parse about equal to my Sch partner's healing combined with EoS and that's without regen being taken into account. As far as death sentence goes, I can typically get a full strength stoneskin up for it and then time a cure II to land between the death sentence hit itself and the infirmity debuff. That merrily counters lustrate not being affected by the healing debuff. Add in a solid debuff rotation and it's really not an issue.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I don't really get why so many people consider sch so superior over whm for Twintania, I typically parse about equal to my Sch partner's healing combined with EoS and that's without regen being taken into account. As far as death sentence goes, I can typically get a full strength stoneskin up for it and then time a cure II to land between the death sentence hit itself and the infirmity debuff. That merrily counters lustrate not being affected by the healing debuff. Add in a solid debuff rotation and it's really not an issue.

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I am pretty sure parsers don't take into account shielding which would put the scholar far above you, as well as making him functionally more useful than you dealing with death sentences and mitigating burst damage

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Originally Posted by Nofacekiller

I am pretty sure parsers don't take into account shielding which would put the scholar far above you, as well as making him functionally more useful than you dealing with death sentences and mitigating burst damage

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Regen, Medica II's regen effect and stoneskin are overlooked for Whm, Succor and Adloq's shield as well as whispering dawn for EoS are missed on Sch. I suspect it's a lot closer than you might think!

I also think you chose to ignore where I noted that I apply stoneskin for Death Sentence? Is that not providing the same function as Adloq? (But with the slower cast time of course)

I suspect your agenda is stopping you from seeing the whole picture here, both Whm and Sch are beautifully balanced as things stand, both jobs have their own quirks over one another and we are certainly not even close to being in the same boat as War and Pld.

WHM may need Cure III reworked on but everything else is perfect. I wouldn't mess with it.

"WHm's aren't so hot in coil" Well that's a little harsh. I do just fine in coil. Very rarely pull threat except maybe the occasional add drop and poorly timed cure/regen.

NEVER have pulled aggro in titan..thats just crazy talk, terri-bad tank. All tank does is sit there and single target threat it.

I love my Whm!!

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Originally Posted by Nofacekiller

-WHM is not that hot for healing Coil compared to scholar and especially twintania where SCH pulls far more weight due to death sentence and other mechanics

-WHM's only % based heal has an exceedingly long CD

-WHM's mana management is extremely poor

-WHM draws at least 2x the threat of SCH

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Allow me to blow your mind about healing on turn 5 as a WHM. If you begin casting a heal when the Death Sentence cast bar is at 50-70% completion, the cure will go off after the ds hits but BEFORE the healing debuff is applied. Always make sure this is a cure 2 and you will be set. Nothing is more satisfying than seeing a 3.3k crit cure 2 after a ds.

Also stoneskin is actually kind of awesome for twintania. With the 50% healing debuff, stoneskin becomes stronger than cure 2 for the same mana cost. Sure it takes a half second longer to cast, but its still very effective.

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Originally Posted by Nofacekiller

-WHM is not that hot for healing Coil compared to scholar and especially twintania where SCH pulls far more weight due to death sentence and other mechanics

-WHM's only % based heal has an exceedingly long CD

-WHM's mana management is extremely poor

-WHM draws at least 2x the threat of SCH

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- WHM has just as much use as SCH in coil. For example, you're not going to heal 4 people back up from Fireball with Succor and a fairy spamming weak heals, it's not going to cut it. Every Death Sentence should have both SS and Adloqium on the tank to mitigate damage, and if you time it right (it's pretty easy to do so) you can get an "ungimped" Cure II off after Death Sentence hits.

- We have a % based "heal" on the GCD. It's called Stoneskin and it effectively heals for 18% of Max HP. Should be using it on the tank whenever it comes off while he has healing debuff on.

- My MP management is just fine and it's not as if SCH can't run into the same problem. Adloqium costs 300-odd MP to cast and it can add up.

- WHM threat isn't even a factor in anything in this game.

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Originally Posted by Vladimus

Allow me to blow your mind about healing on turn 5 as a WHM. If you begin casting a heal when the Death Sentence cast bar is at 50-70% completion, the cure will go off after the ds hits but BEFORE the healing debuff is applied. Always make sure this is a cure 2 and you will be set. Nothing is more satisfying than seeing a 3.3k crit cure 2 after a ds.

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That crit is so satisfying when it happens. I really enjoy watching someone's HP bar go up in such a short time, a trait SCH doesn't have in comparison outside of Lustrate.

As for OP I heavily disagree on Stoneskin. I find one of its more better uses is the fact it can be used on the Raid team and DPS don't require my attention until it's been removed.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

- WHM has just as much use as SCH in coil. For example, you're not going to heal 4 people back up from Fireball with Succor and a fairy spamming weak heals, it's not going to cut it. Every Death Sentence should have both SS and Adloqium on the tank to mitigate damage, and if you time it right (it's pretty easy to do so) you can get an "ungimped" Cure II off after Death Sentence hits.

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4 people? You're doing it wrong :P

Remember that Fairies (And Egis) count like people for Fireball, so always use them to soak up Fireball dmg. Just saying. If you got a Smn + Sch (Or this theoretical double Sch group) and group three people up for Fireball you can just place pets together and have the targetted person run to them resulting in only one person needing heals, since the pets easily absorb those hits.

I must have missed something but when did WHMs become a second rate healer? O_o

I decided to level SCH because it seemed different and the "underdog". Where did all this "WHMs need a buff" crap come from?

Both SCH and WHM work better together than WHM/WHM or SCH/SCH. Only thing I can see maybe needing a fix is Cure III.

Haven't had a WHM steal aggro off me in Coil yet. Maybe you're not using Shroud at the right time?

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Originally Posted by Kal-El

I must have missed something but when did WHMs become a second rate healer? O_o

I decided to level SCH because it seemed different and the "underdog". Where did all this "WHMs need a buff" crap come from?

Both SCH and WHM work better together than WHM/WHM or SCH/SCH. Only thing I can see maybe needing a fix is Cure III.

Haven't had a WHM steal aggro off me in Coil yet. Maybe you're not using Shroud at the right time?

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Bad players like to exaggerate to reinforce their misguided views and opinions. Any good WHM knows how to manage aggro, manage mana, and keep people healed up without wasting. Clearly, this topic creator is a bad WHM.

The OP sounds like a troll post. Everything he suggested would make Stoneskin ridiculously overpowered. Stoneskin works well as it is now, it works better on Warriors than Paladins imo though.