As Tank, I find myself using it on occasion just to change it up some, but have no clue if its actually preventing anything? Has anyone seen any reasons on this for any bosses?
Is it not even worth the time?
Bonus question, how effective is awareness is for bosses and how often/when do you rotate it in?
Pacification does it work on bosses?
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12-06-2013, 05:33 AMPsunPacification does it work on bosses?
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12-06-2013, 05:36 AMMcshiggs
It can be used on the Ifrit.
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12-06-2013, 07:05 AMKitruPacification works on *some* bosses, and it's really a crapshoot like with most status effects. The safe rule is that, if Pacification would allow you to completely avoid a specific fight mechanic, you can't use it on that boss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psun
As to what it does, it's hard to notice the effects because it prevents the boss from using certain abilities, but, basically, if you use it on the boss at the proper time, they'll be incapable of using special attacks that aren't spells (Ifrit's cleave is an example of this). Bosses don't spam their special attacks like players do so it's really hard to notice, especially if you use it during a time when the boss wouldn't have used a special attack in the first place.
NPCs have a roughly 10% default chance to crit for 50% additional damage with their auto-attacks. They can't crit with their special attacks (mainly because a crit spike attack like Mountain Buster would just RNG gib the tank), and auto-attacks can make up a highly variable proportion of the boss's total DPS so it's hard to explicitly quantify how effective at reducing damage it is; auto-attack damage is always a minority of total damage dealt, however. The real value in it is in making incoming damage *predictable* and limiting the worst case: by removing crits from the equation, there is less variability in potential incoming damage and the worst case is limit to normal hits rather than crits.Quote:
Bonus question, how effective is awareness is for bosses and how often/when do you rotate it in?
Of course, as it stands, Awareness is currently bugged such that it prevents any ability used on you to be a critical, which means that your healers can't crit heal you. Since the effects a healer uses on you that can score a critical hit make up nearly 100% of their output whereas the effects that a boss uses that can score a critical hit are only a small proportion of their total output, you pretty much never want to use Awareness since it will almost always do more harm than good (especially if your healer is a SCH; Adloq crits are *amazing*) -
12-07-2013, 04:47 AMPsunWow thank you, this was really helpful information, especially about awareness. I think I read something about that.. isn't there a plan to fix awareness?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
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12-07-2013, 05:03 AMKitruI haven't seen anything about PLD changes for 2.1, which would likely be the soonest that they will fix Awareness if they *are* fixing it, nor have I seen anything from the devs specifically referencing Awareness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Psun
I'm quite curious if the devs are going to be changing PLD at all in 2.1; some of the WAR changes (e.g. global enmity increase in Defiance) seem really strange unless the devs are also applying similar changes to PLDs (e.g. increasing enmity generation in Shield Oath) as part of a reworking of that portion of the tanking subgame. -
12-07-2013, 06:26 PMBrannigan
The enmity increase on Defiance is likely there to offset the increased enmity generated by healers when a 2.1 warrior is tanking. The overpower enmity modifier being increased as well is weird, though. Paladin will almost definitely get some tweaks and changes in 2.1, as every class will. Even if Awareness was working properly, it's a really bad skill, so I could see them changing that. They could also make adjustments to our cross-class skills and some of our mediocre native abilities. I could see Riot Blade, Shield Swipe, and Cover all getting changed a bit.
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12-07-2013, 07:13 PMKitruThat only applies to heals on the tank, which isn't really a problem. Healers only really generate enough enmity to pull off of tanks when they're throwing AoE heals, and the tank only represents a small portion of that, so increasing WAR enmity doesn't really make much sense to counteract the increased healing enmity. On top of that, if WAR gets an enmity increase while PLD doesn't, it will give WARs a pretty substantial enmity advantage; as it stands, damage/enmity on tanks is, quite possibly, the most balanced aspect of the game so screwing that up doesn't really make much sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brannigan
If the increased enmity generated by healers on WARs compared to PLDs is anything *close* to being considered an issue (which I don't really think it is; the 15% +healing from Wrath that most people maintain right now doesn't create any kind of problems and it's only getting bumped up by 5%), the simpler solution would just be to have Defiance reduce enmity generated for abilities targeting entities affected by Defiance by 20%. It addresses the issue directly without going at it in a roundabout way that actually creates bigger problems than the one it was attempting to fix.
The increased enmity really is just coming out of nowhere, and the only way I can see it making sense is if they're doing the same thing for PLD. It really doesn't make sense in any other context. -
12-07-2013, 07:39 PMSynestraI think Riot Blade is fine as it is currently but SS and Cover needs some fine tuning, either give SS small enmity modifier or make it off-GCD skill. What Cover needs most atm imo is increased range but having MDMG reduce in it would also be neat to have(it should also scale by your stats and not the one you are covering), also Stuns should be off-GCD(like lancers for example)for all classes that has it not just for PLD's to make interrupting more userfriendly and fun(also silence and stun effect should apply when you cast it and not after animation is finished).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brannigan
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12-07-2013, 07:45 PMKitruThe PLD stun is on the GCD because it has no CD, which is a *huge* advantage since it allows a properly played PLD to so interrupt mechanics that were designed for 2 people to take care of (like Ifrit's Eruptions). If you want it off the GCD, expect it to get the 20 sec standard CD that Brutal Swing is getting and that Leg Sweep already has.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synestra
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12-07-2013, 08:58 PMBranniganI agree with you since neither class has any problems holding hate, but I really can't think of any other reason why they would. Maybe they're nerfing Maim or expect warriors to use Butcher's Block -> Storm's Eye -> Storm's Path instead off BB->BB->SE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
@Synestra the problem I have with Riot Blade is that it goes unused so often. In a typical fight natural MP regen can take care of your spellcasting needs. Yeah, it gets used occasionally, but paladin's typical rotation could really use some spicing up. There's a lot of ways they could get paladins to use Riot Blade more often, and really anything will work. Shield Swipe is similar in that it's pretty okay in the situations where you can use it and just kind of crappy on everything else. -
12-08-2013, 03:23 AMKitruThat one still has problems because it's dramatically increasing the enmity generated by BB, which means that WAR still gets the option of "completely blows PLD out of the water" by using something like BB>BB>SP (if the global enmity increase is smaller than the 11% increase in damage that SP provides, it's not going to be *anywhere* near enough to make BB>SP>SE a legitimate enmity generation combo). It's another one of those issues where there's an easier and more direct way to solve it (put high enmity mods on Maim/SP/SE; if you don't want to pull aggro from another tank, you should drop out of Defiance since you'll be generating less aggro than you would before; conversely, you could just spam the SE>SP>SP since that's a good deal less potency per GCD than BB>BB>SE) that doesn't cause more problems that the one they were trying to address.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brannigan
Unless they want WAR to be the *explicit* enmity generation king, the only way the Defiance enmity buff makes sense is if Shield Oath is getting the same treatment. For *every* other possible issue that it might be trying to address, there are other less indirect methods with fewer side effects. -
12-08-2013, 04:36 AMSynestraWell that was my point really :P as being stunbot is propably most boring duty in this game atm, but if the reason is to make 2nd tank usefull in those kind of fights then why not remove hes spot completly if that is hes only job in there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
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12-08-2013, 06:04 AMKitruThere's only one fight in the game where you *need* to stun (Ifrit) and, honestly, a decent PLD can handle the stunterrupting while they're MT. The PLD stun having no CD is an *amazing* advantage, and having it on the GCD is a small price to pay, honestly. On Twintania, a PLD can just chainstun the add for 10 seconds because of this; it's a helluva lot harder on a WAR. The whole "PLD as stunbot, omg sucks" thing went stale about 2 months ago. PLD makes fights that require/react well to stuns a *helluva* lot easier because of their stun. Making it a clone of the other stuns may seem like a good idea, but it is an *explicit* reduction in the PLD utility toolbox.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synestra
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12-08-2013, 08:59 AMSynestraWell the way it works currenty is doable but it still would be nice if it was off-gcd, maybe im just too used to have snap cast interrupts for other MMO's. It would still be nice if all classes had equal interrupts, as it is pretty important ability for encounters that requires it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
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12-08-2013, 05:44 PMHahahahahahaha
The Defiance overall enmity boost is likely there to encourage you to use SE and SP more often now that they are both useful and have lower (in SP's case much lower) TP costs. Using a maim combo is basically a threat loss as it stands, and when your dps are going flat out, it can discourage you from using them. SE also increases PLD threat at no cost to them, which can also (but is less likely to) lead to issues. The overpower-specific enmity boost is the one that makes me chuckle, because I can already hold aggro off of triple flares when I'm berserk overpowering. The overpower AND defiance enmity increases make me pity my groups PLD for turn 4. What will he have to do?
More to the point of the thread, pacification does have fairly limited use at the moment, but for bosses / mobs that can be affected by it, it will prevent them from using any weapon skill. You can use it to make you feel like a badass when you stand in a dullahan's iron justice and he just decides at the last second to not cast it because you pacified him. Awareness is a completely unreliable cooldown even without the bug, and as it stands with the bug, it's not even worth having on your bars. -
12-08-2013, 08:55 PMVortok
The defiance enmity boost is a little surprising and I would kind of expect PLD to get something similar on Shield Oath. I don't think they're expecting a WAR to only use Butcher's Block once every three combos. SE and SP are there to be choices + still make a WAR offtank useful if the MT is also a WAR.
I've seen some murmurs about tank threat not scaling as fast as healing/damage threat does, so that might also be a concern (which would lend itself to PLD also getting a boost).
One thing to keep in mind, if you haven't figured it out while blazing through WP in i90 gear, is that the game allows for a lot of slack and overgearing so that mediocre players can still have a chance to complete content. Wouldn't be surprised if a threat boost also had something to do with that... especially when an average player gets to 50 on a tank and gets thrown in with the +1 full DL/i90 dps that can't be bothered to watch threat (had one of those when a tank friend just dinged 50 - unsummoned fairy and let him die to the Dullahan he felt like pulling off the tank).
And yeah, Pacification works on some bosses just like Silence works on some bosses. Unlike Silence, it won't immediately interrupt their cast. If Pacification is on when they try to start an ability, they'll keep trying until the Pacify goes away. Unsure how long they keep trying (think there's a limit of some kind, but haven't really done any testing), but it's noticeable when an enemy will use something (like the Dragon Breath in Brayflox, for example) the instant that Pacification drops off. If they're pacified at the end of their ability cast, then it will fail to activate much like a spell that got silenced. Worth keeping in mind if you have Pacify on a lower DR so you don't use it too early. -
12-13-2013, 12:02 AMPsunNice, I'm totally doing this in a run tonight! Good info in this thread, thanks to all for the feedback!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hahahahahahaha
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12-13-2013, 04:53 PMsybaseI think one of the most frustrating things about this game has more to do with animation lockout. I can't even count the number of times I've just pressed RoH and have to mash HG to get it to work. I also usually see the HG animation then immediately die. You really shouldn't be prevented from using ability B while ability A's animation is still being displayed. It's almost like a cast time for abilities that are supposed to be instant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Synestra