WHM 2nd ability focus?

Pretty much people would recommend focus on critical hit rate, but i personally would think determination will be more effective in terms of healing, or any 1 prefer spell speed instead ?

please share your opinion

You mean for crafted gear? I would go speed>det>crit.

Crit shouldn't be the focus, either determination or spell speed.
I prefer determination, personally, but having a mix of determination and spell speed is ideal, imo.

I'm going for determination as a primary stat because it works great for both healing and damage dealing. As a secondary I'm still sort of stuck between crit and spell speed, but in the end I'll end up going with spell speed. Mostly because I don't like to rely on a chance. While the spell speed will still be minor, it will always work 100% of the time.

As a WHM for secondary stats, you're currently looking at det > SpS > crit. Here's what I posted as to why in a previous thread.

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All attacks follow a set pattern, with a specific cooldown. You know exactly what will hit and exactly when. It's your job to pre-cast and ensure that you never need to have clutch heals. Your spell should never be late, or it means you failed at pre-casting. This isn't WoW where you spend 99% of your time healing, throwing HoTs, AoEs, etc. You are never spamming. You don't need to be able to finish a cast faster, you need to be aware of the rotation and what you are required to do and when.

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In other words, because of the scripted nature of these fights, SpS is not as useful as it would be in other MMORPGs. Now, that doesn't mean it will always be this way. For example, we may get a Patchwerk-style encounter in the future that requires constant spam healing, and that would (probably) favor SpS. But with the encounters currently in-game, SpS is not very useful.

Also take into account how little SpS contributes on a per point basis. If you're going to gear for it you have to go all out to get the most from it. It's similar to Haste in FFXI where if you had a piece of gear with 2% Haste it wouldn't really do much (or anything) on its own and you'd benefit from more damage. If you got to the cap of ~25% however you would notice monumental changes. Same deal applies here. Stack it or ignore it, unless secondarying it can give you a noticeable reduction that is. Likely be the superior stat in the game's future when more is available.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

As a WHM for secondary stats, you're currently looking at det > SpS > crit. Here's what I posted as to why in a previous thread.



In other words, because of the scripted nature of these fights, SpS is not as useful as it would be in other MMORPGs. Now, that doesn't mean it will always be this way. For example, we may get a Patchwerk-style encounter in the future that requires constant spam healing, and that would (probably) favor SpS. But with the encounters currently in-game, SpS is not very useful.

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And this is what I posted in response to that:

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Originally Posted by dragonflyseksparade

You can't precast to account for RNG ground aoes that you must avoid. You cannot precast to account for multiple crit hits in succession. In these scenarios you will absolutely need to spam heal for several casts to catch up. 95% of the precasts that you describe are for precasting Cure I while the tank is at full health, in which case you cancel the cast if the tank doesn't take a hit before completing the cast. If you are talking about precasting for big hits, you're going to be using CDs or swiftcast stoneskin (which does not benefit from det, but does benefit from ss, btw). With divine seal on only a 1min CD, there's no instance where you would benefit by choosing determination gear over spell speed gear.

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In other words, because of the long cast times for spells, and the short CD on divine seal, you will benefit by adding spell speed and giving yourself more time to move. This is also ignoring the fact that i90 spell speed gear has been shown to have higher hps than i90 det gear.

So the reality is that SS>Det>Crit

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Also take into account how little SpS contributes on a per point basis.

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The exact same thing can be said about determination. Except nobody seems to care how little their heals are actually affected by determination. But everybody seems obsessed with how a small 0.1s GCD reduction seems to them. I cannot wait for accurate parsers to get here so there's less misinformation spewed on these forums.

I started to write a book. This is my abridged version howe’er.

Preference for Critical as long as I’m in Cleric’s Stance, which is almost everywhere else except Coil and most of a Wanderer’s Palace run.

Preference for Spell Speed over Determination. Neither of them come in large amounts and I would hate to think that a single battle could be overturned by a single 0.1 second faster heal or 20 more HP for a heal (stacking iLevel 90 items that have Mind and Determination).

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Originally Posted by dragonflyseksparade

The exact same thing can be said about determination. Except nobody seems to care how little their heals are actually affected by determination. But everybody seems obsessed with how a small 0.1s GCD reduction seems to them. I cannot wait for accurate parsers to get here so there's less misinformation spewed on these forums.

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Try a few tests where you remove anywhere from 30-40 det while maintaining mind values and you will notice a difference in healing potency. Stacking det is no different from stacking mind, just a smaller value obviously.

The other reason why spell speed isn't as useful is most bosses attack on a timer anyway. You have to be constantly healing for the spell speed to give you any kind of return. Even on titan there is no problem getting heals, stoneskin or whatever you need on tanks before mountain buster if you understand the fight. And in fights like twintania i'm thankful for any potency i can get.

I still take spell speed over crit because i don't want my GCD to fall behind. I just don't see a reason to chose it over det.

It's called a secondary stat for a reason. Though, I would say the argument against crit for a WHM is legit.

You can clear all content with a focus on determination.
You can clear all content with a focus on spell speed.

Both sides have their benefits. Pick your preference. Or go totally crazy and stack crit just to say you can.

I think they all have their merits, but it is best to stack whatever you prefer.

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Originally Posted by dragonflyseksparade

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I'm not obsessed with it just giving accurate information. You can directly see how much benefit SpS gives you by equipping the gear and looking at the ability, no need for a parser. If you stack a ton of SpS and your cast time/recast time drop by a significant amount (at least 1s/.5s respectively) then I'd say go for SpS but if you stack it and you only see minimal change, it's likely better to gear for determination until you can get more SpS to make a difference. This is because a .4s reduction in cast time shouldn't make or break you in a good design. Determination over crit because it gives ensured benefit. Also, I do believe I read testing that said there is a crit cap and of a low % which made gearing for crit on any job (BRD included) a bad idea.

Edit: And for an example: I equipped the Moogle CNJ weapon and compared to the Garuda. Since there's a small amount of SpS given I was able to find out it would take around 100 casts of a cure in succession to gain an extra cure. Doesn't seem worth it to me in that isntance, but if I had a ton of SpS to reduce casting by a noticeable amount then you know I'd be using SpS.

I hate parsers, accurate or not, because it turns a fun game into something everyone only cares about numbers and trying to make the Cure 1 hit for 950 instead of 948...

Spell speed isn't just about "how many cures I need to cast in a row before I fit in an extra cure."

Spell speed is also about getting off any potency of a cure after your tank takes a huge spike to prevent a killing blow. Or getting a stoneskin off in time right before a big hit you know is coming. Or getting off any spell before having to move out of an aoe. I realize in a "perfect design" you shouldn't be coming down to a split second, but no one plays perfectly and bad things can happen, and these split second moments DO happen.

These are all intangibles that can't be measured by a spreadsheet. I used to be a proponent of determination. I still think it's a solid and good choice. However, combined with the fact the spell speed is only minorly behind determination in effective HPS on a spreadsheet, it was enough for me to rethink my position to personally favor speed.

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Originally Posted by dragonflyseksparade

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First off, I'm extremely curious as to what fight you're spamming spells in. Unless you're carrying a very undergeared tank, I don't see a fight in a game that requires that. Second, you CAN account for RNG ground aoes. The only one I can think of that you'd be referring too is Liquid Hell, which is on a set timer, has a cast bar, and can be entirely avoided by simply moving at the beginning of the cast. Third, yes, you can account for crits. Enemies do not have double/triple attack or other random bonuses like this. The enemy attacks at a specific attack speed. You know when that attack is coming, and when his skills are coming, so even if he crits three times in a row, you and your co-healer should have prep'd heals for the normal damage output, which will land, and then you simply top him off with another. Not a big deal. Fourth, what "big hits" are you talking about? Death Sentence? Again, it, like every other ability in the game, is on a specific timer, so you can prep a stoneskin to land inbetween the auto-attack and the Death Sentence, no Swiftcast required.

Again, you mention HPS, which has no place in a game where you stand idle 90% of the time. Maybe when we get a Patchwerk encounter, it'll matter, but right now, no. If you want to calculate anything, calculate your throughput per spell per MP used vs MP regeneration. That's far more important than HPS in a game that has zero spammy encounters.

All of the above might be true, but ask yourself if an extra 50hp on a Cure really makes a significant impact either? If any of it goes into overhealing, it's completely useless. Healing up 2000hp with a 1000hp/cure or a 1050hp/cure is still 2 heals either way.

The point is your WHM isn't going to be obsolete if you choose spell speed. Spell speed and determination are BOTH viable choices. People championing one over the other need to realize this.

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Originally Posted by Nettle

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Absolutely. You're free to choose either and you'll not see a huge difference either way. This is just for purposes of min/maxing.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

As a WHM for secondary stats, you're currently looking at det > SpS > crit. Here's what I posted as to why in a previous thread.



In other words, because of the scripted nature of these fights, SpS is not as useful as it would be in other MMORPGs. Now, that doesn't mean it will always be this way. For example, we may get a Patchwerk-style encounter in the future that requires constant spam healing, and that would (probably) favor SpS. But with the encounters currently in-game, SpS is not very useful.

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On speed runs where the tank pulls several groups of mobs at once, sometimes I am at the limit of my cool down just to keep the tank alive. In these situations, yes I would like a little more speed.

How much does det really boost potency? I haven't seen any reliable data on this.

As far as crit... I wouldn't want to rely on a critical chance in a pinch. It seem like even when buffed, criticals are pretty rare in this game.

It's been awhile since I've looked at the extrapolated formulas, but I believe it's roughly 5 det = 1 mind. I believe how much mind cures depends roughly on your weapon's potency, among other things, but I think at 50 it falls somewhere between 1-2 hp per 400 potency Cure for each point of mind. So you're looking at 1-2hp per Cure per 5 det.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm typing this out based off what I remember from several weeks back, but I think it's close enough to give a general idea.

EDIT: For a determination BiS vs a spell speed BiS setup, the differences are:

Det BiS: +73 determination ( approx +30hp / cure, approx +49hp cure 2 )
SS BiS: +71ss (-0.07 seconds per 2.5s GCD ), +25 piety

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Originally Posted by Zaft

First off, I'm extremely curious as to what fight you're spamming spells in. Unless you're carrying a very undergeared tank, I don't see a fight in a game that requires that.

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I'm am curious what your strategy is in Turn 4 phase 5-6 if you're not spamming heals. How do you stand idle 90% of the time? Why don't you solo heal every encounter if you are standing idle so much? If you're standing idle that often, maybe the best secondary stat for WHMs will become accuracy so they can DPS with all that spare time. /sarcasm.

There are many instances where you will be required to spam heals for awhile - especially during progression as people are learning an instance. Acting arrogant by stating that spamming heals is never required in this game isn't really an argument at all, you're just being condescending.

In general, I agree with your comments about MP regeneration, but MP really shouldn't ever be an issue unless you are spamming aoe heals - but you just said that you never spam heals so I don't really understand your argument there either. Even with just a few i90 pieces you'll have enough MP for any instance in the game.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

First off, I'm extremely curious as to what fight you're spamming spells in. That's far more important than HPS in a game that has zero spammy encounters.

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You're doing 1 or several of the following:

1- You're trolling, try harder please
2- You've never done any speed runs
3- You've never done Binding Coil of Bahamut

I'd take Spell Speed over anything else all day and every day. Healing for +100 is useless if your heal is late and God knows these "oh shit" moments happen.

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Originally Posted by TimeZero

3- You've never done Binding Coil of Bahamut

I'd take Spell Speed over anything else all day and every day. Healing for +100 is useless if your heal is late and God knows these "oh shit" moments happen.

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3. is definitely false because even in his portrait preview, you can see Allagan gear...

And likewise, spamming heals at 1.8secs compared to 1.9secs is useless if your heals can't keep up with the damage being done. We're taking the most situational of all bad scenarios, so there's no point in using them as an argument.

I like my nuclear heals, tbh. Yes, there are times where I am required to spam heals, but never times where I wished I needed more speed. I've learnt to properly precast, and if its really needed, presence of mind.

Determination for me wins in its ability to scale well with all of our abilities. However, I know other WHMs who focus spell speed, who are equally as capable. So its personal preference in my books.

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Originally Posted by dragonflyseksparade

I'm am curious what your strategy is in Turn 4 phase 5-6 if you're not spamming heals. How do you stand idle 90% of the time? Why don't you solo heal every encounter if you are standing idle so much? If you're standing idle that often, maybe the best secondary stat for WHMs will become accuracy so they can DPS with all that spare time. /sarcasm.

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Even the 2 dreadnought phase in Turn 4 isn't too bad if your tank is smart with his CDs. Ours generally uses Hallowed as soon as he has both of them and then Sentinel once that's off. Once they're off it can get a little spammy but I can still afford to throw a Cure II on the off tank now and again.

Regarding this SS vs Det thing, I'd love to have the choice tbh. Our healer drops in coil are so bad that I'm forced to make do with mythology gear anyway. I don't want to gimp myself and the rest of the party by sitting in darklight and hoping "maybe this week".

This particular subject garners such passion, I am one of those few that likes spell speed a lot. Either way and it has been mentioned here already either path will take you to the top play for fun. You know what I loved about FFXI and this game is it was never about that parse crap, that is WOW mentality thing and though if you like that kind of thing I say go for it let's just play the damn game and have fun. This 50hp here .3 seconds there crap is so trivial when compared to how well you play your job as a whm. In the end if your skill is only ok then all the gear is the world wont save your tank, or your party. I love my i90 Red and Whites and have every intention to keep sporting them because that's what I like.

I've not really "prioritised" anything myself (barring my vanya head where ive chucked det+sp into), just been grabbing whatever ilvl90 I can get hold of.

my T4 experience has been somewhat limited so I've not had many "spam heal" situations yet have had a fair amount of idle time where I've been switching to cleric stance and getting some dps in (not really needed but I do it in T1+2 and in my titan sell runs).

I really quite enjoy whm dps tbh, as limited as it may be, so I've gone for det just for an overall heal+dmg boost.

Does sps affect dot timers btw? Considering I rarely get more time than enough to chuck up aero 1+2 and lightning 1 before switching back to heal (and then reapplying dots when I switch back) I can see sps not really helping me on this side of things.

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Originally Posted by Nathanmg

I've not really "prioritised" anything myself (barring my vanya head where ive chucked det+sp into), just been grabbing whatever ilvl90 I can get hold of.

my T4 experience has been somewhat limited so I've not had many "spam heal" situations yet have had a fair amount of idle time where I've been switching to cleric stance and getting some dps in (not really needed but I do it in T1+2 and in my titan sell runs).

I really quite enjoy whm dps tbh, as limited as it may be, so I've gone for det just for an overall heal+dmg boost.

Does sps affect dot timers btw? Considering I rarely get more time than enough to chuck up aero 1+2 and lightning 1 before switching back to heal (and then reapplying dots when I switch back) I can see sps not really helping me on this side of things.

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I don't THINK it does, but considering how much you need for it to have a real impact on cast times, I can't imagine it would do much for them (or Regen) either.

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Originally Posted by Nathanmg

Does sps affect dot timers btw? Considering I rarely get more time than enough to chuck up aero 1+2 and lightning 1 before switching back to heal (and then reapplying dots when I switch back) I can see sps not really helping me on this side of things.

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As far as i know spell speed does not affect dots or hots, but crit and det do so it does seem odd to me that there is a secondary stat that is worthless to dot classes...

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Originally Posted by Eriane

As far as i know spell speed does not affect dots or hots, but crit and det do so it does seem odd to me that there is a secondary stat that is worthless to dot classes...

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It isn't worthless to DOT classes. It reduces the GCD on a DOT cast just like any other hard cast spell. The gain you recieve is based on total dot damage per GCD time. Not saying that I think SS is the best secondary stat for DPS classes, but I would not call it worthless.

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Originally Posted by dragonflyseksparade

It isn't worthless to DOT classes. It reduces the GCD on a DOT cast just like any other hard cast spell. The gain you recieve is based on total dot damage per GCD time. Not saying that I think SS is the best secondary stat for DPS classes, but I would not call it worthless.

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So a SCH casts dots that lasts 30,24, and 18 sec.... that SCH just saved a fraction of a second on 3 casts and now for the remainder of the dot duration is getting zero benefit from spell speed. I would call that worthless but thats just me. Now the spell speed would affect ruin spam sure, but crit and det affect ruin spam and the potency/chance to crit of the dots.