Turn 4 - Summoner Mana Question

My group killed turn 4 tonight, and after many many attempts, I have to ask, how are you managing mana during this turn? It feels like every Aetherflow charge is accounted for, with only one or two to spare for Drain throughout the whole fight. Multiple times *I* was the one begging our bard to mage song, because I simply had nothing left, and knew I would oom before my next Aetherflow was available.

For the small packs I'm throwing dots (just spreadable, no Thunder), miasma 2, shadow flare. I use bane, then pick a non dotted target and repeat. I use bane twice to make sure all adds have dots, then use Tri-disaster until there's less than 3 alive, which I finish off with ruin1/2 (they're usually at a sliver of life by this point - 2 is only if I have to move and have aetherflow or mage song up).

I'm also using contagion to put extended dots on the non-priority target (second soldier at the start/dreadnot while we're on soldiers), to make double dotting a bit easier.

I just wondered, does anyone else struggle with mana during this fight? If you don't, what do you suggest to help me keep max dps without going oom or begging for mage song?

Generally after the first dreadnought our bard puts on ballad for a little bit, and then I'm fine for the rest of the time.

Don't use Tri-Disaster in this encounter. Don't use Ruin 2 at all except for the Dreadnoughts.

Only use Miasma II for the spiders(to keep up disease), and dreadnoughts(with contagion).

Make sure to be efficient with your bane+DoTs. Do them on each side for the bigger packs, not anything in the middle.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

In my experience the main reason I run out of MP is because I delayed using Aetherflow off CD for some reason, and/or because I wiped in an earlier attempt, and did not have that extra aetherflow ready as the run began. Those two things together will lead to more of a sudden mp loss than any extra spells will.

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SMN has huge MP problems. If you're NOT running out of MP, then you're not properly timing your DoTs(including SF), or you're using Energy Drain.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

I disagree. IMO summoner is about making *the right move* over *any move*. And a major theme of summoner, at least for me, tends to revolve around making the correct judgement. I'm not perfect but I do time my DoTs / bane / SF to be mostly on-point, usually refreshing something the exact moment it runs out.

I don't know why you think Energy Drain is such a bad skill. During the first dreadnought (if I didn't screw up my planning and I have 3 stacks of aetherflow) I will use Rouse --> Spur --> shadow flare (as it eats the bugs) --> Enkindle --> Raging Strikes --> Bio II --> Miasma --> Bio --> *hesitate* --> fester --> thunder --> miasma II ~ contagion --> ruin 1 ~ ruin 2 ~ fester --> ruin 1 ~ ruin 2 ~ energy drain .......

I forget exactly what I do around the end, but it's something like that. At this point I usually have another aetherflow ready to refresh stacks by the time the next fester would come up. I wouldn't just never use energy drain. It does add a very slight momentary burst & a little MP recovery. You'd have nothing to do during the GCD anyway after the ruin 2.

I honestly don't understand how one of the other summoners that beat turn 5 mentioned MP problems, or how many think summoners have them. I never suffer from MP problems unless I have to resurrect someone or delay my aetherflow for some reason. Turn 4 is the only turn I get real low as it comes to the end, but usually that's because I made mistakes, not because the class has MP problems.

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Because you're using Energy Drain when you don't have to. It's more DPS to continually(and wait to) use Fester. If you don't need the MP, don't use ED. The only fight I use ED on is Turn 5. Turn 4 runs me tight, but I don't need to use ED.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

If you don't end a fight low on mp as a SMN you're not doing as good dps as you could be. Considering that doing your best dps rotation will slowly drain you over time, if you end a fight at full mp you didn't manage your resources properly and wasted dps opportunities. Try to find a balance between spending and preserving mp to make sure you get the most out of your abilities.

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This x1000.

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Originally Posted by Daenerys

For the small packs I'm throwing dots (just spreadable, no Thunder), miasma 2, shadow flare. I use bane, then pick a non dotted target and repeat. I use bane twice to make sure all adds have dots, then use Tri-disaster until there's less than 3 alive, which I finish off with ruin1/2 (they're usually at a sliver of life by this point - 2 is only if I have to move and have aetherflow or mage song up).

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The tri-disaster usage is a mistake-- you should only be using tri-disaster once in those big pulls, after the Bane part of the rotation. Then you are right to go to an add that wasn't affected by bane and to throw the next set of dots on him + bane again. By big pulls I mean the clockwork spiders at the start and the set after the dreadnought with the spinner rooks (after they're clustered).

The ruin 1/2 to finish off any of the enemies in those pulls is another mistake. If they have only a small % of hp left, let your dots finish them off. There's no reason to waste either version of ruin on the cluster pulls. I don't know if that would hurt the math on maximum dps, but with summoner you have to only maximize your dps on what's important. Spamming ruin 1/2, either version, should really be saved for the dreadnoughts & spinner rooks.

Those mistakes, however, are not what I think is causing you to run so low on MP (assuming you aren't doing those things excessively). I just thought I'd point them out to help tighten up your game.

For some reason many summoners will jump in to accuse thunder, shadowflare, and ruin II as the source of a sudden MP loss. I don't those spells are the reason most of the time.

In my experience the main reason I run out of MP is because I delayed using Aetherflow off CD for some reason, and/or because I wiped in an earlier attempt, and did not have that extra aetherflow ready as the run began. Those two things together will lead to more of a sudden mp loss than any extra spells will.


It took me awhile to notice this myself but delaying aetherflow because you want to save the stacks for some reason is actually a huge MP loss over time. I am guessing many summoners that are having MP problems have this to blame (besides mistakes with unnecessary spell usage, or resurrecting someone, etc).

Unbuffed and solo, my ruin hits for 188-203 (non crit). Tri-disaster hits for 70-77 (non-crit) per target. I'm unsure if it decreases with . Accounting for the difference in cast times (1.2 Ruins = 1 T-d) it is a dps increase to use it on 4 mobs or more (technically 3.2 mobs average, but let's round up), and our dps is very tight as it is (we have very little Allagan/Myth gear spread amongst our group at the moment). After testing, it also doesn't seem to reduce the damage with more targets. Maybe I will just stop Tri at 5 instead of 4 mobs, for now, at least until our DPS gears up a little more and I can drop it.

(Edit)

I think you hit the nail on the head xxalucard, with the delayed aetherflow. I am doing that, I will try this week without sitting on charges (i try to go into each add phase with 2 for banes on both sets), and see how that goes.

I also am not using contagion on the bugs, I prefer to use it for double dotting purposes (adds are dying before it's benefit would even kick in in most cases).

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Originally Posted by Daenerys

Unbuffed and solo, my ruin hits for 188-203 (non crit). Tri-disaster hits for 70-77 (non-crit) per target. I'm unsure if it decreases with . Accounting for the difference in cast times (1.2 Ruins = 1 T-d) it is a dps increase to use it on 4 mobs or more (technically 3.2 mobs average, but let's round up), and our dps is very tight as it is (we have very little Allagan/Myth gear spread amongst our group at the moment). After testing, it also doesn't seem to reduce the damage with more targets. Maybe I will just stop Tri at 5 instead of 4 mobs, for now, at least until our DPS gears up a little more and I can drop it.

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Don't use Tri-Disaster in Turn 4 at all.

It costs too much MP taking the entire encounter to mind.

If your DPS is that tight, they're doing something wrong, or you have a MNK. First time I cleared T4 I had 2 iLVL55 pieces for accuracy, and most of the group was full DL.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

SMN has huge MP problems. If you're NOT running out of MP, then you're not properly timing your DoTs(including SF), or you're using Energy Drain.

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I disagree. IMO summoner is about making *the right move* over *any move*. And a major theme of summoner, at least for me, tends to revolve around making the correct judgement. I'm not perfect but I do time my DoTs / bane / SF to be mostly on-point, usually refreshing something the exact moment it runs out.

I don't know why you think Energy Drain is such a bad skill. During the first dreadnought (if I didn't screw up my planning and I have 3 stacks of aetherflow) I will use Rouse --> Spur --> shadow flare (as it eats the bugs) --> Enkindle --> Raging Strikes --> Bio II --> Miasma --> Bio --> *hesitate* --> fester --> thunder --> miasma II ~ contagion --> ruin 1 ~ ruin 2 ~ fester --> ruin 1 ~ ruin 2 ~ energy drain .......

I forget exactly what I do around the end, but it's something like that. At this point I usually have another aetherflow ready to refresh stacks by the time the next fester would come up. I wouldn't just never use energy drain. It does add a very slight momentary burst & a little MP recovery. You'd have nothing to do during the GCD anyway after the ruin 2.

I honestly don't understand how one of the other summoners that beat turn 5 mentioned MP problems, or how many think summoners have them. I never suffer from MP problems unless I have to resurrect someone or delay my aetherflow for some reason. Turn 4 is the only turn I get real low as it comes to the end, but usually that's because I made mistakes, not because the class has MP problems.

If you don't end a fight low on mp as a SMN you're not doing as good dps as you could be. Considering that doing your best dps rotation will slowly drain you over time, if you end a fight at full mp you didn't manage your resources properly and wasted dps opportunities. Try to find a balance between spending and preserving mp to make sure you get the most out of your abilities.

I use tri-disaster on the bugs and I am fine. I have beaten it a couple of times already. However, by the end of the fight my mana is almost depleted. We have a bard that helps us casters with mp.

From experience, the single most beneficial thing I've learned to do is after double Baning the first pack of spiders (P1) is to energy drain and aetherflow immediately to make up the lost mana, before going into P2. With my group's DPS, I usually only ever have time for maybe 2-4 Tri-Disasters in the whole turn, and that is assuming everything has DoTs, shadow flare is up and Miasma 2 is on everything.

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Originally Posted by Daenerys

I also am not using contagion on the bugs, I prefer to use it for double dotting purposes (adds are dying before it's benefit would even kick in in most cases).

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Ah, you're right about that. I also don't use it on the bugs-- it's a habit for me to mentally associate Miasma 2 with contagion, since in most situations that's the double tap part of my rotation where I use both simultaneously. Editing that part of the post :)

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Originally Posted by Kevee

It's more DPS to continually(and wait to) use Fester. If you don't need the MP, don't use ED. The only fight I use ED on is Turn 5. Turn 4 runs me tight, but I don't need to use ED.

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How is it more DPS to do nothing while waiting for the GCD?

If I just used fester, then that means I can't fester again for 10 seconds. Ruin 1 ~ Ruin 2 ~ Energy Drain is more DPS than just Ruin 1 ~ Ruin 2. It's an extra attack man, and it's DURING the GCD downtime before you can use ruin 1 (or any spell) again.

Sure, it may not be that much DPS, but it IS more dps on whatever single target your attacking during a burst phase...especially if you can Aetherflow before that next fester is off CD again. Really don't know how you can say 3 attacks is less DPS than 2...

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Originally Posted by Seobit

If you don't end a fight low on mp as a SMN you're not doing as good dps as you could be. Considering that doing your best dps rotation will slowly drain you over time, if you end a fight at full mp you didn't manage your resources properly and wasted dps opportunities. Try to find a balance between spending and preserving mp to make sure you get the most out of your abilities.

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While this is correct in theory, it's wrong in reality depending on the boss fight and it's mechanics.

Fights where the boss physically "jumps" out of the arena (twintania divebomb phase, titan phase jump, ifrit charges, garuda teleport) or you happen to get "imprisoned" (conflag / fireball, dreadknight stun, granite gaul), will lead to portions of the fight where you are gaining more MP because you physically cannot cast any spells on the boss for a certain amount of time. If you happen to aetherflow right before one of these sections, and then aetherflow again soon after, that's a huge MP gain where the amount of MP you have doesn't necessarily reflect the amount of DPS you're doing.

Note that turn 4 has none of these jumps / imprisons, there is constantly an enemy to attack, and there is no mechanic where you have to stop casting in order to dodge (except the occasional pox)-- this is why it's the most MP intensive turn of them all.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

How is it more DPS to do nothing while waiting for the GCD?

If I just used fester, then that means I can't fester again for 10 seconds. Ruin 1 ~ Ruin 2 ~ Energy Drain is more DPS than just Ruin 1 ~ Ruin 2. It's an extra attack man, and it's DURING the GCD downtime before you can use ruin 1 (or any spell) again.

Sure, it may not be that much DPS, but it IS more dps on whatever single target your attacking during a burst phase...especially if you can Aetherflow before that next fester is off CD again. Really don't know how you can say 3 attacks is less DPS than 2...

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Because you're wasting a charge on ED that could be used for Fester. Fester does more damage, so it results in more DPS.

It's more burst, yes, but it's never needed. Like, on anything. It's used for MP, and that's it. You're doing more now, less over time. So, less DPS.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

Fights where the boss physically "jumps" out of the arena (twintania divebomb phase, titan phase jump, ifrit charges, garuda teleport) or you happen to get "imprisoned" (conflag / fireball, dreadknight stun, granite gaul), will lead to portions of the fight where you are gaining more MP because you physically cannot cast any spells on the boss for a certain amount of time. If you happen to aetherflow right before one of these sections, and then aetherflow again soon after, that's a huge MP gain where the amount of MP you have doesn't necessarily reflect the amount of DPS you're doing.

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It's still a net MP loss unless you use ED. You recover 2% of your MP every 3 seconds in combat, and you can't Aetherflow->Conflag->Aetherflow soon after, what are you talking about? Not even during Divebomb because you're DPSing the snakes.




Again, stop using ED when you don't need it. You only use it when you need MP. You shouldn't wait until you're bottomed out, but you shouldn't be using at more than 50% MP either. If you end any fight at more than ~20-30% mana, you're doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

While this is correct in theory, it's wrong in reality depending on the boss fight and it's mechanics.

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It is always correct. It doesn't matter how you go about it but you should never be at full mp and you should always be almost empty at the end. If you ever sit at full mp then you're losing out on natural recovery which in turn is a net dps loss since mp directly translates into more damage opportunities. Even fights where you have down time to recover, you should account for it and balance accordingly.

There really should be no mana issue, if the bard ballads at a reasonable time which is generally for our group once the first dreadnaught dies and the 2 spinner rooks spawn. At that point the bard should mages with battle voice and top off mana pretty fast and during this phase the scholar goes cleric and helps burn. So it may not just be you, your dps could just be lacking a little making the fight longer thus burning mana which if is the case could have your scholar help with dots during the bug phases.

Ballad is a crutch. The healers in my group almost never ask for it on any of the fights (T5 included), unless something went terribly wrong. It's good to learn not to depend on it.

I stopped using Tri-disaster (well, typically throw out 1 maybe 2, then once any of them die I stop).

So energy drain is only a dps increase if you are bone dry on mana, or about to be.

So I would say at 20% or lower mana, start using solely energy drain instead of fester.

And also drop thunder from your rotation (except when you are going to contagion). This should result in an almost mana neutral position.

You don't always want to wait until you're out of mp to energy drain. Turn 4 for example requires a good amount of dps on the last few phases, so making sure you have the resources needed to put out as much damage as possible at that moment is important.

Dropping thunder in favor of spamming ruin won't save you mp. Assuming the target lives for the full duration of thunder, casting ruin three times vs casting thunder once and standing idle for 4-5 seconds yields about the same results (in damage dealt per time invested, and a 25 mp difference in thunder's favor), the latter also allowing you more mobility. So even if you're looking to save mp, thunder is still higher in priority than ruin.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

So energy drain is only a dps increase if you are bone dry on mana, or about to be.

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No, it's a DPS increase on a burst target no matter what % your mp is, when used in-between festers with aetherflow off cd.

I'm not talking about the overall fight where you can look at an inaccurate parser and see an overall insignificant dps loss. I'm talking about a burst target, that if you don't burst in time will wipe the run. Sure, most of the time a group can carry dps enough for it to not matter-- but occasionally it matters. I just try to optimize things that are important.

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And also drop thunder from your rotation (except when you are going to contagion). This should result in an almost mana neutral position.

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This is never necessary in any content, at all (Assuming your team is playing at the expected level of skill to pass the content). It's a DPS loss at any % of MP.

The irony of subtracting a major dps skill from your rotation because you are trying to do more dps by saving an aetherflow charge for a future fester (which, in turn, is the real cause of major MP loss.)

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

No, it's a DPS increase on a burst target no matter what % your mp is, when used in-between festers with aetherflow off cd.

I'm not talking about the overall fight where you can look at an inaccurate parser and see an overall insignificant dps loss. I'm talking about a burst target, that if you don't burst in time will wipe the run. Sure, most of the time a group can carry dps enough for it to not matter-- but occasionally it matters. I just try to optimize things that are important.

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Such a target does not exist, and wasting a charge on ED is making it harder for the next conflag/dreadnought, where then you might need it. You alternate Bane, and Bane+Fester. There's no room for ED.

And then you can't do it.


Never use ED unless you need the MP.

Period.

Sorry I'm not really sure what we're discussing anymore.

Someone said they have mana issues.

I posted ways to alleviate the mana issues.

Anyway you put it, thunder is by far our lowest efficiency spell (not counting Ruin II and Miasma II) unless you have contagion, therefore its the first spell you drop when you're running out of mp...?

Is there a problem here?

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Anyway you put it, thunder is by far our lowest efficiency spell (not counting Ruin II and Miasma II) unless you have contagion, therefore its the first spell you drop when you're running out of mp...?

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It's not if it can run the full course, as said above.

Thunder = 212 MP = 240 Potency
3x Ruin = 237 MP = 240 Potency

Wait what D=

I always thought my thunder was like 260 some mp.

Also wait what, I thought ruin was like 68 mp.

Maybe my whole life has been a lie.

WHAT YEAR IS IT??!!? D=

From what I have read don't listen to xxx EVER no idea what they are talking about.