Turn 4 - Summoner Mana Question

[Daenerys]

My group killed turn 4 tonight, and after many many attempts, I have to ask, how are you managing mana during this turn? It feels like every Aetherflow charge is accounted for, with only one or two to spare for Drain throughout the whole fight. Multiple times *I* was the one begging our bard to mage song, because I simply had nothing left, and knew I would oom before my next Aetherflow was available.

For the small packs I'm throwing dots (just spreadable, no Thunder), miasma 2, shadow flare. I use bane, then pick a non dotted target and repeat. I use bane twice to make sure all adds have dots, then use Tri-disaster until there's less than 3 alive, which I finish off with ruin1/2 (they're usually at a sliver of life by this point - 2 is only if I have to move and have aetherflow or mage song up).

I'm also using contagion to put extended dots on the non-priority target (second soldier at the start/dreadnot while we're on soldiers), to make double dotting a bit easier.

I just wondered, does anyone else struggle with mana during this fight? If you don't, what do you suggest to help me keep max dps without going oom or begging for mage song?

[Kevee]

Generally after the first dreadnought our bard puts on ballad for a little bit, and then I'm fine for the rest of the time.

Don't use Tri-Disaster in this encounter. Don't use Ruin 2 at all except for the Dreadnoughts.

Only use Miasma II for the spiders(to keep up disease), and dreadnoughts(with contagion).

Make sure to be efficient with your bane+DoTs. Do them on each side for the bigger packs, not anything in the middle.

In my experience the main reason I run out of MP is because I delayed using Aetherflow off CD for some reason, and/or because I wiped in an earlier attempt, and did not have that extra aetherflow ready as the run began. Those two things together will lead to more of a sudden mp loss than any extra spells will.

SMN has huge MP problems. If you're NOT running out of MP, then you're not properly timing your DoTs(including SF), or you're using Energy Drain.

I disagree. IMO summoner is about making *the right move* over *any move*. And a major theme of summoner, at least for me, tends to revolve around making the correct judgement. I'm not perfect but I do time my DoTs / bane / SF to be mostly on-point, usually refreshing something the exact moment it runs out.

I don't know why you think Energy Drain is such a bad skill. During the first dreadnought (if I didn't screw up my planning and I have 3 stacks of aetherflow) I will use Rouse --> Spur --> shadow flare (as it eats the bugs) --> Enkindle --> Raging Strikes --> Bio II --> Miasma --> Bio --> *hesitate* --> fester --> thunder --> miasma II ~ contagion --> ruin 1 ~ ruin 2 ~ fester --> ruin 1 ~ ruin 2 ~ energy drain .......

I forget exactly what I do around the end, but it's something like that. At this point I usually have another aetherflow ready to refresh stacks by the time the next fester would come up. I wouldn't just never use energy drain. It does add a very slight momentary burst & a little MP recovery. You'd have nothing to do during the GCD anyway after the ruin 2.

I honestly don't understand how one of the other summoners that beat turn 5 mentioned MP problems, or how many think summoners have them. I never suffer from MP problems unless I have to resurrect someone or delay my aetherflow for some reason. Turn 4 is the only turn I get real low as it comes to the end, but usually that's because I made mistakes, not because the class has MP problems.

Because you're using Energy Drain when you don't have to. It's more DPS to continually(and wait to) use Fester. If you don't need the MP, don't use ED. The only fight I use ED on is Turn 5. Turn 4 runs me tight, but I don't need to use ED.

If you don't end a fight low on mp as a SMN you're not doing as good dps as you could be. Considering that doing your best dps rotation will slowly drain you over time, if you end a fight at full mp you didn't manage your resources properly and wasted dps opportunities. Try to find a balance between spending and preserving mp to make sure you get the most out of your abilities.

This x1000.

[xxalucard]

For the small packs I'm throwing dots (just spreadable, no Thunder), miasma 2, shadow flare. I use bane, then pick a non dotted target and repeat. I use bane twice to make sure all adds have dots, then use Tri-disaster until there's less than 3 alive, which I finish off with ruin1/2 (they're usually at a sliver of life by this point - 2 is only if I have to move and have aetherflow or mage song up).

The tri-disaster usage is a mistake-- you should only be using tri-disaster once in those big pulls, after the Bane part of the rotation. Then you are right to go to an add that wasn't affected by bane and to throw the next set of dots on him + bane again. By big pulls I mean the clockwork spiders at the start and the set after the dreadnought with the spinner rooks (after they're clustered).

The ruin 1/2 to finish off any of the enemies in those pulls is another mistake. If they have only a small % of hp left, let your dots finish them off. There's no reason to waste either version of ruin on the cluster pulls. I don't know if that would hurt the math on maximum dps, but with summoner you have to only maximize your dps on what's important. Spamming ruin 1/2, either version, should really be saved for the dreadnoughts & spinner rooks.

Those mistakes, however, are not what I think is causing you to run so low on MP (assuming you aren't doing those things excessively). I just thought I'd point them out to help tighten up your game.

For some reason many summoners will jump in to accuse thunder, shadowflare, and ruin II as the source of a sudden MP loss. I don't those spells are the reason most of the time.

In my experience the main reason I run out of MP is because I delayed using Aetherflow off CD for some reason, and/or because I wiped in an earlier attempt, and did not have that extra aetherflow ready as the run began. Those two things together will lead to more of a sudden mp loss than any extra spells will.


It took me awhile to notice this myself but delaying aetherflow because you want to save the stacks for some reason is actually a huge MP loss over time. I am guessing many summoners that are having MP problems have this to blame (besides mistakes with unnecessary spell usage, or resurrecting someone, etc).

[Daenerys]

Unbuffed and solo, my ruin hits for 188-203 (non crit). Tri-disaster hits for 70-77 (non-crit) per target. I'm unsure if it decreases with . Accounting for the difference in cast times (1.2 Ruins = 1 T-d) it is a dps increase to use it on 4 mobs or more (technically 3.2 mobs average, but let's round up), and our dps is very tight as it is (we have very little Allagan/Myth gear spread amongst our group at the moment). After testing, it also doesn't seem to reduce the damage with more targets. Maybe I will just stop Tri at 5 instead of 4 mobs, for now, at least until our DPS gears up a little more and I can drop it.

(Edit)

I think you hit the nail on the head xxalucard, with the delayed aetherflow. I am doing that, I will try this week without sitting on charges (i try to go into each add phase with 2 for banes on both sets), and see how that goes.

I also am not using contagion on the bugs, I prefer to use it for double dotting purposes (adds are dying before it's benefit would even kick in in most cases).

[Kevee]

Unbuffed and solo, my ruin hits for 188-203 (non crit). Tri-disaster hits for 70-77 (non-crit) per target. I'm unsure if it decreases with . Accounting for the difference in cast times (1.2 Ruins = 1 T-d) it is a dps increase to use it on 4 mobs or more (technically 3.2 mobs average, but let's round up), and our dps is very tight as it is (we have very little Allagan/Myth gear spread amongst our group at the moment). After testing, it also doesn't seem to reduce the damage with more targets. Maybe I will just stop Tri at 5 instead of 4 mobs, for now, at least until our DPS gears up a little more and I can drop it.

Don't use Tri-Disaster in Turn 4 at all.

It costs too much MP taking the entire encounter to mind.

If your DPS is that tight, they're doing something wrong, or you have a MNK. First time I cleared T4 I had 2 iLVL55 pieces for accuracy, and most of the group was full DL.

[xxalucard]

SMN has huge MP problems. If you're NOT running out of MP, then you're not properly timing your DoTs(including SF), or you're using Energy Drain.

I disagree. IMO summoner is about making *the right move* over *any move*. And a major theme of summoner, at least for me, tends to revolve around making the correct judgement. I'm not perfect but I do time my DoTs / bane / SF to be mostly on-point, usually refreshing something the exact moment it runs out.

I don't know why you think Energy Drain is such a bad skill. During the first dreadnought (if I didn't screw up my planning and I have 3 stacks of aetherflow) I will use Rouse --> Spur --> shadow flare (as it eats the bugs) --> Enkindle --> Raging Strikes --> Bio II --> Miasma --> Bio --> *hesitate* --> fester --> thunder --> miasma II ~ contagion --> ruin 1 ~ ruin 2 ~ fester --> ruin 1 ~ ruin 2 ~ energy drain .......

I forget exactly what I do around the end, but it's something like that. At this point I usually have another aetherflow ready to refresh stacks by the time the next fester would come up. I wouldn't just never use energy drain. It does add a very slight momentary burst & a little MP recovery. You'd have nothing to do during the GCD anyway after the ruin 2.

I honestly don't understand how one of the other summoners that beat turn 5 mentioned MP problems, or how many think summoners have them. I never suffer from MP problems unless I have to resurrect someone or delay my aetherflow for some reason. Turn 4 is the only turn I get real low as it comes to the end, but usually that's because I made mistakes, not because the class has MP problems.

[Seobit]

If you don't end a fight low on mp as a SMN you're not doing as good dps as you could be. Considering that doing your best dps rotation will slowly drain you over time, if you end a fight at full mp you didn't manage your resources properly and wasted dps opportunities. Try to find a balance between spending and preserving mp to make sure you get the most out of your abilities.

[paradigmfellow]

I use tri-disaster on the bugs and I am fine. I have beaten it a couple of times already. However, by the end of the fight my mana is almost depleted. We have a bard that helps us casters with mp.

[T0rin]

From experience, the single most beneficial thing I've learned to do is after double Baning the first pack of spiders (P1) is to energy drain and aetherflow immediately to make up the lost mana, before going into P2. With my group's DPS, I usually only ever have time for maybe 2-4 Tri-Disasters in the whole turn, and that is assuming everything has DoTs, shadow flare is up and Miasma 2 is on everything.

[xxalucard]

I also am not using contagion on the bugs, I prefer to use it for double dotting purposes (adds are dying before it's benefit would even kick in in most cases).

Ah, you're right about that. I also don't use it on the bugs-- it's a habit for me to mentally associate Miasma 2 with contagion, since in most situations that's the double tap part of my rotation where I use both simultaneously. Editing that part of the post

It's more DPS to continually(and wait to) use Fester. If you don't need the MP, don't use ED. The only fight I use ED on is Turn 5. Turn 4 runs me tight, but I don't need to use ED.

How is it more DPS to do nothing while waiting for the GCD?

If I just used fester, then that means I can't fester again for 10 seconds. Ruin 1 ~ Ruin 2 ~ Energy Drain is more DPS than just Ruin 1 ~ Ruin 2. It's an extra attack man, and it's DURING the GCD downtime before you can use ruin 1 (or any spell) again.

Sure, it may not be that much DPS, but it IS more dps on whatever single target your attacking during a burst phase...especially if you can Aetherflow before that next fester is off CD again. Really don't know how you can say 3 attacks is less DPS than 2...

If you don't end a fight low on mp as a SMN you're not doing as good dps as you could be. Considering that doing your best dps rotation will slowly drain you over time, if you end a fight at full mp you didn't manage your resources properly and wasted dps opportunities. Try to find a balance between spending and preserving mp to make sure you get the most out of your abilities.

While this is correct in theory, it's wrong in reality depending on the boss fight and it's mechanics.

Fights where the boss physically "jumps" out of the arena (twintania divebomb phase, titan phase jump, ifrit charges, garuda teleport) or you happen to get "imprisoned" (conflag / fireball, dreadknight stun, granite gaul), will lead to portions of the fight where you are gaining more MP because you physically cannot cast any spells on the boss for a certain amount of time. If you happen to aetherflow right before one of these sections, and then aetherflow again soon after, that's a huge MP gain where the amount of MP you have doesn't necessarily reflect the amount of DPS you're doing.

Note that turn 4 has none of these jumps / imprisons, there is constantly an enemy to attack, and there is no mechanic where you have to stop casting in order to dodge (except the occasional pox)-- this is why it's the most MP intensive turn of them all.