So far I like the encounters. You guys did a good job of designing encounters but the dungeons just dont feel like dungeons, and I think I know why. It's the little portals. Why is it that we have to teleport to the next section of the dungeon when we kill a boss? Why not run out of the room and continue on?
Coil just feels insubstantial. It feels incongruous. It just doesnt feel like its a single dungeon. And Amdapor Keep seems like it would be so much more awesome if we got to run up one of those collapsing circular stair cases to get to the second level.
On a side note: Not everything needs to be a dungeon. I miss world content from FFXI and WoW. Specifically FFXI. I miss epic zones like Temple of Uggalepih and the Boyahda Tree and etc.
Better dungeon design?
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11-25-2013, 07:13 AMcivilpawBetter dungeon design?
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11-25-2013, 10:04 AMMarxam
If you played Star Ocean 2 and went to Cave of Trials then you know what good, end-game dungeon design should be like
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11-25-2013, 11:14 AMsylin
I have really liked the encounters so far also, but, I would love to see some overland dungeons put in, and just in general some VERY hard content.
Or, maybe just whole dungeon zones would be good.
I'd like to see beastmen zones wherein maybe agro works differently and mobs WILL not break away chase unless you zone out, or I've heard tell of ff11 having strange agro rulesets like undead all agroing across zone if your really low on life, some flavorful zones like this would make this great game even better.
Id like to see insane or even impossible content added, in EQ I cant recall which dragon it was but they meant for it never to be killed, it was an impossible mob, and that's kind of how eq raiding was born, an organized group of players got together (like 200) and managed to kill a mob that was meant to be impossible to kill, things like this really add flavor and soul to games and those players will never forget they achieved the impossible. -
11-25-2013, 11:17 AMcivilpawI played SO2, and did clear that dungeon. And it was fun. But Im not entirely sure it applies to this sorta game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marxam
edit: wait, are we talkin the PS version or the PSP version. Cause I havnt played the PSP version. -
11-25-2013, 11:19 AMsylin
another thought Ive had in regards to really hard content, that maybe not every player can get thru, is instead of segregating casuals by making it so they feel they MUST obtain X gear from X event that they cant possibly do. Don't make the stats better than they can receive elsewhere, just simply make the gear cooler, ie particle effects or glows or clicky abilities, in essence let those of us who desire impossible content have it, but don't break the game for those who can't or don't want to, let us show off how uber we are via our displays over via our stats.
(I personally do feel the best gear should be obtained by those who are best, but in an mmo that we want to succeed and lets face it there are many causal/solo type players in this market, so somewhere we need to find middle ground so all are happy) -
11-25-2013, 11:53 AMMirariMirai+1 so agree with youQuote:
Originally Posted by civilpaw
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11-25-2013, 04:08 PMKelberos
I reckon its more to do with server stability. If you spawn a full dungeon from the get go the way you do in WoW and other lower level dungeons - you will put a lot of strain on the server.
We already have a couple of content thats not dungeon based. Look at Odin and Behemoth. How much fun it is stacking on one map tile with 200+ other people that are spamming AOE on a small piece of land. Or how it would occasionally crash the server?Quote:
On a side note: Not everything needs to be a dungeon. I miss world content from FFXI and WoW. Specifically FFXI.
IMHO - they do not have a good handle nor a good solution to handle non-dungeon based content. Its not their fault per se since World events are hectic & messy. Unless something has changed or can be done i would refrain them from trying.
I understand where you are coming from - and i do root for them myself. But i would not trade them off for server stability/availability. -
11-25-2013, 04:13 PMKellauchia
They did say that they plan to release hard mode for some dungeons (some already confirmed).
whose to say they don't plan to do so for the AK or many more.
I remember hearing them say, when they put the HM of the dungeons, they will be with different enemies and different places or routes for that dungeon... -
11-25-2013, 04:41 PMZaft
Coil is split up so that you can clear it a turn at a time. You can leave, come back another day, switch jobs around, or even come back with an entirely different group.
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11-25-2013, 04:47 PMAlice_89thPersonally I think the usual glowing blue dots you see when changing zones could already be an improvement. Of course it would still be ''start walking down the tunnel/staircase/cave on one end and magically skip the middle and come out on the other end'', but it might feel a little more coherent than warping around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelberos
But personally I have been busier pondering how those aetherflows would work (lore technically), than that they annoy me. -
11-25-2013, 06:09 PMPibzWhile i agree that for pretty much the rest of the dungeons it would be cool if it was just continuous space in coil itself it actually makes sense it isn't since from turn to turn you are going down an elevator, deeper and deeper into the structure as you go.Quote:
Originally Posted by civilpaw
Well, while I actually don't know why they make you go through those portals, it's not so that they can split the dungeon into smaller instances, as that just doesn't happen, for example you can attack the mobs upstairs in AK before you actually go upstairs. Also when you die, you go back to start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelberos
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11-26-2013, 12:43 AMcivilpawWorks in exactly the same way in World of Warcraft, and each raid is a single dungeon. Except for Siege of Orgrimmar. But it takes place on two continents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaft
edit: Also, I dont understand the need for the timers in the turns. It makes zero sense. At any time you can leave, reset the timer, and only have to trot a short distance back to the boss. Why not eliminate the timers? Seems completely arbitrary. -
11-26-2013, 12:46 AMcivilpawYa, but aside from turn 4, it doesnt even feel like youre going on an elevator. its just a portal that teleports you to a lobby with another portal that teleports you to a another dungeon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pibz
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11-26-2013, 12:57 AMcivilpawThis makes little sense, as your counter argument references a game which itself successfully does that very thing. Blizzard can do it with a game that has many times the population this game presently has. Blizzard has been doing it for 9 years. Heck, Square-Enix has been doing it for... 12 years? Mind you, Final Fantasy XI's population has never been incredibly high, but even with griefers at Dragon's Aery, killing a boss has never been an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelberos
Valid point. Allow me to rephrase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelberos
It would be nice to have world content that is worth doing.
I refer you back to reply 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelberos
How exactly is it not their fault that they are unable to handle non-dungeon based content in their own product?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelberos
Again, I refer you to reply 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelberos
And once again, I refer you to reply 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelberos
Edit:
It seems that maybe some people missed my point a bit regarding non-dungeon content.
I would like for there to be reasons to go out in to the world, and awesome zones to go in to. At present, the only reason to venture out in to Eorzea is to utilize a gathering profession, or to level up. There's simply nothing else to do that doesnt involve entering an instanced dungeon, and after the changes to dungeon XP go live, leveling up will also take place in them (tho I dont hate this, as fate grinding is about the most awful thing ever). It doesnt have to be a boss encounter (tho I definitely wouldnt turn those down), but the two world boss encounters that exist offer nothing of value aside from 1 set of Chocobo barding that is only two-thirds awesome.
Note:
Just gettin nb4 "go back to wow". I do like FF14, and want to see what 2.1 has to offer before I make a concrete decision to stop or keep playing. And I enjoy how the producer (or whoever it is posting in his name) actually interacts with the community, instead of treating it like the enemy. I got very sick of the way Blue handled the community forums in WoW, for instance. I also enjoy the encounters in the raid dungeon. They seem fairly well thought out, tho a bit easy. But hey, introductory raiding should be that way. I just wish that there was more to do. -
11-26-2013, 08:08 AMMarxamPsx version. I do think it will work. As it stands the only real "puzzles" that we get are the boss encounters in coil. Most of the time dungeons consists of "do this" or "go here and do that" or "activate this". I think it would be much more interesting if dungeons had a puzzle that lead up to the boss. To go back to the Cave of Trials example, in the 3rd floor you had to enter rooms in a certain order to activate glowing tiles that when fully lit would open the boss door. Puzzles in dungeons would make this game more RPG-like than most mmo's imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by civilpaw
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11-26-2013, 08:24 AMcivilpawPersonally doubt people would tolerate that. People hated chess in Karazhan. Personally I dont mind a raid being a boss rush, but the dungeon itself just doesnt feel like a dungeon. The atmosphere is severely lacking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marxam
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11-26-2013, 11:10 AMMirariMiraikarazhan was one of the better raids designed in wow. I found chess "boss" in karazhan kinda entertaining. A puzzle once in a blue moon makes it refreshing for players. my 2 centsQuote:
Originally Posted by civilpaw
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11-26-2013, 11:56 AMcivilpawOh, dont misunderstand. I LOVED Karazhan. Favorite raid in all of WoW. And I enjoyed chess. Solo'd it back when it was still current. Mind you, that required quite a bit of luck. Medivh, you cheating bastard. But I didnt know anybody else who liked that event.Quote:
Originally Posted by MirariMirai
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11-26-2013, 12:24 PMLithera
Given that the Lunatics in AK have been routinely summoning voidsent and have actively booby trapped the Keep with Vodoriga, it's not unconceivable that they could use simple teleportation spells to move around the ruins of the Keep. I know I wouldn't want to clamor up a set of crumbling stairs every time I needed to go to the top floors. The place is in terrible shape. The only other dungeon I can think of with teleporters like that is Cutter's Cry and that just reminded me of Quicksand Caves where you would fall through the quicksand pits to descend floors. Copperbell doesn't count because you're actually descending down the elevator so the dungeon is continuous.
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11-26-2013, 12:45 PMcivilpawDoes nothing to explain the ones in Halatali tho. Honestly it just feels like a cop out in design to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
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11-26-2013, 01:35 PMLithera
Halatali is continuous as well. The teleports put you on the opposite side of sealed doors. Probably a design the Pugilst's Guild put in place, probably with the help of the Thaums, to ensure none of the rather onerous occupants of the place got out. All the chains you have to yank to open the reinforced gates are a nice touch.
Oh, and after doing a run through AK, the stairs aren't even accessible lol So the Lunatics had no choice but to resort to magic. All the side corridors are grown over with vines and roots. Perfectly reasonable for a fairly ancient Keep in the middle of a dense forest land. Could be that an eventual Hard Mode AK will take us through some of those corridors or perhaps even into the Keep's dungeon. Probably some nasty stuff down there. -
11-26-2013, 03:48 PMcivilpawSelf defeating statement. What I was complaining about initially is that said doors arent open to be passed through. If we cant pass thru the door, and instead need a teleporter to get to the other side, then it isnt continuous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
Then why have doors? Also, isnt it the escape of, and subsequent occupation by said onerous occupants the entire reason for the player entering that zone anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
No argument here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
This is the very problem. Amdapor Keep isnt a real location. The developers could have designed it so that the stairs were accessible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
Due to the poor design choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
Hey, Im as big a fan of atmosphere as anybody else. Maybe even moreso, as having an actual set of stairs to ascend would make the zone feel a whole lot less disjointed. Also, it seems odd that the portals, which were supposedly erected by the zealots, would appear only after said zealots were eliminated. Seems like they would behave in a completely contrary manner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
This is exactly the sort of thinking I am wishing was put in to the original design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithera
Why arent we using actual corridors?