Should they really be thinking about making another Tank job?

Taking in the latest changes into account, they don't seem capable of balancing around different Tank paradigms and any/all Tanks will simply converge into mitigation Tanks.

WHAT OTHER TANKS ARE THERE?!?!

Mitigation is the very definition of what a Tank does!

Next think you'll tell me that they have a hard time creating Damage Dealer jobs because they all deal damage, and so they're all the same.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

WHAT OTHER TANKS ARE THERE?!?!

Mitigation is the very definition of what a Tank does!

Next think you'll tell me that they have a hard time creating Damage Dealer jobs because they all deal damage, and so they're all the same.

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Well I use mitigation and "mitigation" interchangeably. Usually mitigation means damage reduced, but when I say "mitigation" I just refer to damage that was not needed to be healed, i.e. dodged, reduced, healed damage.

One of the main ways you create diversity in Tanking classes is by them having unique "mitigation" styles, however this is hard to balance and it would appear SE isn't capable of doing it, as is evident with WAR transforming in Axe PLD.

Diversity is always better. Just because they couldn't get warrior as an absorption tank doesn't mean something like an evasion tank or a new absorption tank will be flubbed. Of course they should not be thinking about adding until after this new stuff hits and they adjust as/if needed.

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

Well I use mitigation and "mitigation" interchangeably. Usually mitigation means damage reduced, but when I say "mitigation" I just refer to damage that was needed to be heal, i.e. dodged, reduced, healed damage.

One of the main ways you create diversity in Tanking classes is by them having unique "mitigation" styles, however this is hard to balance and it would appear SE isn't capable of doing it, as is evident with WAR transforming in Axe PLD.

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I don't see Axe Oath, or Shield Oath, nor so I see a GCD Stun, or Flash with a Blind Effect, Or hallowed Ground, I don't see a Shield Block, or Sentinel, I don't see an OFF GCD Aoe DOT, or a Silence, or a Riot Blade. I don't see how I am becoming a, Axe Paladin.

There's mitigation tanks, HP sponges, dodge tanks, and more. I kind of agree with the OP. SE can balance tanks but they chose to go the easy way and add mitigation to Warrior. I am concerned that all tanks in ARR will be like some sort of paladin that has mitigation.

I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of Magic TANK/SUPPORT class ~ Low HP, high MP Magic user that casts a series of Magic Barriers on self/party/mobs that generate enmity while mitigating self damage. Big self heals, low outgoing heals, moderate DoTs. Uses LB of a healer, rather LB of a tank & can only roll as Tank in DF.

All tanks will have some base mitigation to make them relevant towards all content. Doesn't mean SE can't make tanks with niche play styles around it.

Pallies are still unique with the ability to block, Warriors are still unique with the added health and self healing. Other could simply have higher chance to dodge, Damage absorbing shields, damage debuffs, or pet/clone absorbers.

It's only when these niches are made to be the dominant factor, that balancing issues will arrive.

no they should not.

Well, there's nothing stopping SE from going to the absorption route for Warriors, but giving them a solid foundation with the IB changes, Vengeance and Storm's path will make it easy to go crazy with other ways of mitigation when they raise the cap/add new skills, while PLD can just stick with raw mitigation. Only the future will tell.

There is nothing to stop a rework of warrior at a later date for all we know the 2.1 change is just been used as a short term fix till they have the time to rework and balance the warrior to be more of a self healing tank.

There's only so many ways you can get beat up on by a monster.

Yes. But only because all the other jobs are always waiting on tanks. They need more tanks in the population... so what ever they need to do to get that done.

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Originally Posted by xRitzx

There's mitigation tanks, HP sponges, dodge tanks, and more. I kind of agree with the OP. SE can balance tanks but they chose to go the easy way and add mitigation to Warrior. I am concerned that all tanks in ARR will be like some sort of paladin that has mitigation.

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There's a substantial difference between how a tank *plays* and the mechanics that it utilizes. In 2.1, both WAR and PLD are going to have a lot of DR (though it's not nearly as much as people seem to think; WAR is still "huge hp and increased self healing") but they're going to *play* completely differently: WAR is *still* going to be all about leveraging Inner Beast for maximum benefit, generating/spending Wrath stacks on various other benefits, and selecting the appropriate combo for the situation (which now is even more applicable since SP is going to be useful); PLD is still going to be one combo and not much else (sometimes Stoneskin and Flash).

It's because of *this* that you can have a *lot* of different tanks even if they share many of the same fundamental mechanics. In fact, playstyle difference is *more* important than mechanical difference. As long as there are ways for tanks *play* differently, which is not a question of what mechanics are used but in the interplay of given abilities, there will always be room for more tanks. The same is true for DPS and healers as well. If they add BST, it's going to *have* to play differently than a SMN, and not just "SMN in melee range". The only time that you can really afford to cross over playstyles and still have it be justifiable is when you're going from tank to DPS, or vice versa, mainly because tanking and DPS focus on entirely different aspects of the fight so that you can get a completely different experience even if your character is using all of the same abilities in largely the same way.

Just please no evasion tanks. I hate everything about them. Especially with the way RNG works in this game. If crafting/gathering is any indication imagine a tank with a 50% chance of avoiding attacks getting hit about 100 times in a row.

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Originally Posted by Xikaz

Just please no evasion tanks. I hate everything about them. Especially with the way RNG works in this game. If crafting/gathering is any indication imagine a tank with a 50% chance of avoiding attacks getting hit about 100 times in a row.

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They've also got the same change of taking no damage for 100 attacks in a row. The only reason you think that the RNG is horribly unfair is because the human brain is designed to place much more import upon deviation from expectations rather than evenly weighting everything.

It's, honestly, not all that difficult to create a reliable evasion tank construct. The reason that people hate evasion tanks so much is because evasion doesn't add to eHP; it's a mean mitigation mechanism. You can have a perfectly effective evasion tank as long as you're willing to increase its hp and/or provide absorb shields to offset the tremendously lower eHP thanks to substantially lower static damage reduction (which adds to both eHP *and* mean mitigation).

they're doing better at diversifying tank toolkits than they are with their DD stuff.

there's really only slight differences between drg/mnk/brd as is... every one of them revolves around keeping a couple buffs on themselves and a couple debuffs/dots on their target

it'd be neat to see a dps class that didn't have a dot as their highest potency attack... all i'm sayin

on topic though, i'm positive they already are thinking of another tank, and other dps and other healers

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

I don't see Axe Oath

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"By this axe, I rule!"

There's your axe oath.

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Originally Posted by xRitzx

SE can balance tanks but they chose to go the easy way and add mitigation to Warrior. I am concerned that all tanks in ARR will be like some sort of paladin that has mitigation.

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Having damage mitigation doesn't instantly make you a paladin. The focus is and should be on tanking mechanics without making one more of a penalty to have around than the other while maintaining a common denominator between the tanks. Some form of reduction of incoming damage and something ressembling defensive cooldowns are non-negotiable.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

They've also got the same change of taking no damage for 100 attacks in a row. The only reason you think that the RNG is horribly unfair is because the human brain is designed to place much more import upon deviation from expectations rather than evenly weighting everything.

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You're missing the societal aspect of it. NIN displaced PLD in FFXI because to the hive mind no damage taken >>>>>>>>>>> damage mitigation of any sort. Math doesn't even enter the scenario. People see no damage taken and that instantly makes one superior to the other. Even before factoring party resources spent per tank (the other main reason why parties preferred ninjas over paladins).

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Originally Posted by Eightbit

Diversity is always better. Just because they couldn't get warrior as an absorption tank doesn't mean something like an evasion tank or a new absorption tank will be flubbed. Of course they should not be thinking about adding until after this new stuff hits and they adjust as/if needed.

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Um that's not how credibility works. lol How do you trust that they can do this, when all signs point to the opposite? Where is your faith coming from?

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Originally Posted by Garnatian

Taking in the latest changes into account, they don't seem capable of balancing around different Tank paradigms and any/all Tanks will simply converge into mitigation Tanks.

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'
Its the 3rd month into the game and you're talking about making a new tank class? One word: WAIT. The game is new, they need to figure stuff out and once they get a feel for things and hopefully get better maybe before the next x-pack from now they'll think about adding a new class.

We don't need any more tanks

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Originally Posted by Thunderz

We don't need any more tanks

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For the sake of variety, I think we do.

DPS:Tanks:Heals ratio is 4:2:2 right now. At some point new classes and jobs will be added and those pools will have to get bigger. We obviusly have Rogue/Scout on the way due to Yoshida mentioning it in the past, as well as lingering things like Musketeer. So thinking we'll get more tanks further down the road is perfectly reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

For the sake of variety, I think we do.

DPS:Tanks:Heals ratio is 4:2:2 right now. At some point new classes and jobs will be added and those pools will have to get bigger. We obviusly have Rogue/Scout on the way due to Yoshida mentioning it in the past, as well as lingering things like Musketeer. So thinking we'll get more tanks further down the road is perfectly reasonable.

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they will probably add more tanks down the road

but we def don't need some soon-ish.

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Originally Posted by Thunderz

they will probably add more tanks down the road

but we def don't need some soon-ish.

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Why not? We don't need more DPS in the new future at all since current DPS don't even get into DF or Coil teams.

How is an absorbtion tank all that much different from the proposed 20% reduction on IB? It's just a kind of absorb that scales with content which is necessary for all tanks

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

How is an absorbtion tank all that much different from the proposed 20% reduction on IB? It's just a kind of absorb that scales with content which is necessary for all tanks

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It is reactionary and functions AFTER damage and not BEFORE.
So let us say you have 3000 HP left.
Mountain buster comes in and rocks you for 3k HP.

Your absorb occurs AFTER the hit, it doesn't come before it. So you die.
If it was 20% mitigation, you'd be left with 400hp.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Your absorb occurs AFTER the hit, it doesn't come before it or after the hit. So you die.
If it was 20% mitigation, you'd be left with 400hp.

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such is why you hit IB before mountain buster to top off and reduce it by 20%. That much i didnt think had to be said. Same would go for absorb, to absorb that mountain buster not take it all

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

such is why you hit IB before mountain buster to top off and reduce it by 20%. That much i didnt think had to be said. Same would go for absorb, to absorb that mountain buster not take it all

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I do not believe you understood what I was saying.
Read my post again.

Edit: Just read my post over again, and make sure to read the post you made before my reply.

There's mitigation, self healing, absorbs, crippling, evasion (can't believe I forgot evasion), displaced damage, and even pet tanking.

In all honesty, I've never seen a game try to implement serious pet tanking, but it doesn't mean it's impossible.

That said, no, game doesn't need more tanks. People are misunderstanding the problem when they said "more tanks would make queues faster". It wouldn't, really. People that will tank will tank, and people that won't, won't. Other than simplicity, very few are waiting for "the right job" to get them to tank. They dislike the responsibility that comes with tanking.

I would enjoy a dark knight tank, for instance, but I still don't think the game needs one.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

I do not believe you understood what I was saying.
Read my post again.

Edit: Just read my post over again, and make sure to read the post you made before my reply.

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I think i get it now. Thankyou :P

I would love to see a Samurai tank but I don't think it's going to happen... Samurai dps would be cool stuff too but I like tanking most

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

I would love to see a Samurai tank but I don't think it's going to happen... Samurai dps would be cool stuff too but I like tanking most

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Seeing that they left parries and stagger damage alone, I think those two would make an excellent base for a Samurai tank.

Or they could always bring back what they did in FFXI with counter tank MNK's and shadow tank NIN's.

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Originally Posted by Ensign

Or they could always bring back what they did in FFXI with counter tank MNK's and shadow tank NIN's.

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Except NIN shadow tanking was not intended in the slightest. How will they stop that in FFXIV? Give NIN skills no way to generate increased Emnity.