I’m just curious whether other summoners think capping pet accuracy is worth it. I’m trying to finalize my gear progression plan since we just got into t5, but I can’t decide whether I think it’s worth it or not. Any input would be appreciated.
Summoners, cap pet accuracy or no?
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11-20-2013, 04:13 AMhoraiyoSummoners, cap pet accuracy or no?
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11-20-2013, 04:37 AMKevee
You'll want ~440-~442 accuracy(without food). This will give you a ~2-3% miss rate. If you can get a bigger piece, like Allagan legs over AF2 and maintain ~442 accuracy, do it. The crit is worth the loss, but if you're sacrificing for DET/SS then it is not worth it. If you dip down to 435, using AF2 legs will be a DPS increase over Allagan.
Capping, for the pet, is only necessary if you're currently progressing on Turn 5 and having trouble with short conflags/dreadknights.
Personally, I'm going to cap it, especially because a miss can't be just factored into DPS. A miss during Rouse/Spur has a lot more weight than a normal one, and a missed Enkindle is something you don't want to do.
Crafted Earrings
Allagan Boots/Legs/Ring
Myth everything else
There are other ways to get to the cap if you want to switch some pieces around, such as using all 90, allagan belt, allagan earrings, etc.
I've found this to be the best tradeoff.
It's 4 Int 17(11) DET 14 SS or 50 Crit and whatever else you slot on the earring. 6 DET/8VIT/6PIE.
Edit: When I say "cap," I'm talking about the assumed 450 for the pet. I don't have all the pieces yet to parse this. -
11-20-2013, 12:09 PMpandabearcat
I just want to point out that say, losing 1% pet dps is okay when you consider you might be gaining 1% or more in other offstats.
Unless contagion misses of course, thats lame, but with a 99% hit chance this will happen once in a blue moon. -
11-20-2013, 01:58 PMKeveePretty much this.Quote:
Originally Posted by pandabearcat
The break point is ~3% Pet accuracy = ~1% Summoner DPS, or ~4% Pet DPS:~1% Summoner DPS -
11-20-2013, 08:43 PMRyuko
After examining all of the gear and what I would think is 'best in slot' if I managed to get really lucky on drops, I am going to have to agree with Kevee's estimation. I'm at exactly 440 right now (minus food) and I'm comfortable with it. It's just rather frustrating that food does not affect pet accuracy, since food will give me even more of an accuracy bonus anyway.
Right now, I'm using AFv2 head/body/hands, Allagan feet/legs, Hero's ring... and DL everything else. As Kevee has said, with the exception of the Allagan ring (to fill the 2nd ring slot), Myth (Hero's gear) looks like the way to go. The 451 acc (11 added from the myth belt) seems very much like overkill, but you won't want to risk a single miss from Garuda during progression of turn 5. I'll likely buy the belt next, followed by bracelet/neck and crafted earrings (whenever I get the money..). -
11-21-2013, 12:54 AMhoraiyo
Thanks for the input. I'll work towards 440 and decide from there whether I want to go for cap pet acc. With my drop luck that's gonna be a while, so I have time to decide between the two.
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11-21-2013, 04:28 AMxxalucard
Honestly you don't need 440 accuracy. Capping your own accuracy with food (so it adds up to ~424) is more than enough for turn 5.
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11-21-2013, 06:58 AMKeveeYou should get to 440-445 accuracy because anything less and it's a DPS loss due to pet accuracy, and how little side-stats add in comparison to other sidestats. If you sit at 435 accuracy with Allagan legs, it's a DPS gain to switch to AF2 legs. Anything lower, and it's even more of a DPS gain.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
Food DOES NOT WORK WITH PETS. Not to mention 424 is not our own accuracy cap. Right now, it's confirmed as low as 434.
If you're sitting at 414/415 and using HQ Stuffed Cabbage to get to the current known cap, you're doing less DPS than if you equipped more accuracy gear and used crit food. -
11-21-2013, 07:01 AMBabydoll
I'm going to cap mine...(Well I have already) my stats are pretty balanced atm. :)
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11-21-2013, 09:06 AMxxalucardTo be fair I feel you're over-estimating the pet's DPS quite a bit. More crit = more dps, especially considering that our primary damage is with our DoTs and fester. Those crit DoT tics and crit festers will add up to much more damage than what you'd lose by the pet missing a little more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
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11-21-2013, 09:19 AMSeobit
Pet is about 30% of your dps, that's substantial. With rouse and spur it's also a major source of your burst dps so you want it to be reliable.
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11-21-2013, 09:20 AMKeveeNo, it won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
The 34 crit is a 1.23% DPS increase. The jump from 435 Accuracy to 445 will be roughly ~5-6% more accuracy(~93% to ~98%) for the pet. Assume 70 pet DPS, which is kind of low, and it's a gain of ~4.2 DPS, from the accuracy alone.
For the crit, not even mentioning the DET on the leg piece, to equal that change the Summoner itself would have to do over 340 DPS.
You are vastly over-estimating the worth of one sidestat over another. You're not just losing 34 crit, you're gaining 17 DET.
This*.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seobit
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11-21-2013, 10:07 AMRyuko
If you manage to get the gear I mentioned, you will easily hit the acc 'cap' AND have more than enough crit to do crazy amounts of damage. With food, I'm over 500 crit... and I don't even have all of my ideal pieces yet. In many MMOs, the correct progression is: hit your acc cap so you never miss on the current content (never go above it), THEN increase your damage as much as possible. The thing that makes summoner different is that we have a pet AND that pet has a different acc cap than we do.
In the argument about whether it's worth it to cap pet accuracy or not... I just want to mention that pet damage is consistent and reliable... when you are dodging, moving, running, conserving mana... that pet is still hitting for the same, every single time. I'd prefer to keep that damage consistent than to ignore pet acc cap for a tiny bit more side stats. I've had Garuda finish something off for me when the entire party wiped and I was the only one left, kiting and Ruin 2 spamming (had one Titan run like that... crazy stuff). Also keep in mind that I'm pretty sure, according to the acc cap, Enkindle and Contagion (two very important pet cooldowns) CAN miss... plus, rouse/spur adds 40% dps if used together. If your pet misses one hit during that moment, it's pretty substantial.
Now, do you NEED to have Garuda at 100% acc to beat turn 5? Probably not. Buuuuut, I personally think it's safer and more reliable. Just a personal opinion. -
11-21-2013, 10:32 AMticdupI went with a crafted astral ring and allagan ears. I hadn't considered going crafted earrings (just blithely disregarding SS with no real thought). But looking at the value-math, on my server, I am paying an extra -- at a minimum -- 300k gil (That is assuming both of the Aim III or Eye III melds hit on the first time) for +8 DET over +12 SS. And Aim III is more than double the cost of Eye III materia, so any misses that cost goes up quickly. My ring ends up being (ack, realizing this after the fact) a pretty hefty premium for +8 Det.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
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11-21-2013, 01:56 PMxxalucardI've never seen Garuda miss Contagion. I also believe in another thread about DoTs missing someone posted that "something that hits without an initial damage output cannot miss", stating that Bio & Bio II were examples of this. Contagion doesn't do damage, so I assume it falls under the same properties. It would be nice if a dev commented to confirm / deny this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuko
The extra crit also benefits your pet. Your DoT tics are another reliable source of damage, besides your pet, and they will never miss and have a chance to crit, every single tic. It's a very rare few moments you will have to run from something or be stunned at the same time all your DoT tics run out (assuming you're timing things fairly well).
I've seen the same argument in many games with consistency vs critical hit potential. If you got so unlucky that the small % of pet accuracy actually affected your overall DPS negatively, the RNG could have been just as bad at 98% pet accuracy. You have the potential to do more damage with more crit dot tics /festers / pet attacks (which also benefit from the crit). The pet can still miss at crucial moments even at 98% accuracy, so I rather invest in stronger hits when they do connect-- which will, in reality, be very close to the same rate anyway. -
11-21-2013, 01:58 PMKeveeNo. See my other post.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
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11-21-2013, 02:00 PMxxalucardHow does your other post prove that the extra crit dot tics and other damage don't compensate for the extra misses from the pet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
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11-21-2013, 03:02 PMKeveeQuote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
That's how.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
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11-21-2013, 03:15 PMYukagamaSome source would be nice or test on acc cause as of now I' dont think it's worth losing crit over acc. Need prove XD!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
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11-21-2013, 03:18 PMKeveeSource: MeQuote:
Originally Posted by Yukagama
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11-21-2013, 04:11 PMRyukoI would like some sort of real dev answer on this too. It is true that Miasma seems to miss a lot more (if your acc isn't capped), but Thunder doesn't seem to miss quite as often. I have never seen Bio miss, but I HAVE seen Bio II miss... although I'm not sure if it ACTUALLY missed or the game was simply being wonky and it showed my animation going off but the spell was never actually cast. If I had been parsing, perhaps I would have seen it and known for sure. I haven't done any real testing, but I can only assume that some abilities require more accuracy than others. Otherwise, why in the world would Miasma miss so much but Thunder doesn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
As far as the pet... if your theory is correct, Contagion wouldn't miss -- but Enkindle would. Again, you can't SEE the numbers pop up like yours would because your pet isn't you, but you could check the parser to know if it hit or not and for exactly how much. Enkindle is a little underwhelming, but it is helpful. I would hate for it to miss. -
11-21-2013, 05:07 PMYukagama
I cap on acc and crit but eather way love to see some offical source regarding to acc on pet ect.
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11-21-2013, 11:44 PMT0rinYou don't need an 'official' source. Download a parser (logrep2, ffxiv-app) and go to Turn 5. Have your pet attack Twintania, watch it miss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukagama
SE isn't going to come out and say 'here are the official accuracy caps for all the content', this is left up to the players to test and determine. The players have pegged the SMN accuracy cap at 432-435 and the pet accuracy cap at ~450.
If you take those values as truth, it is not hard to determine how much a 5% loss of accuracy on a pet affects your overall DPS potential. -
11-22-2013, 01:04 AMFire-Dragon-DoL
I think you mean 432-435 and ~450 :P
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11-22-2013, 01:07 AMT0rinHeh, yes. Fixing that now. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Fire-Dragon-DoL
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11-22-2013, 03:50 AMxxalucardKey words there: "If you take these numbers as truth."Quote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
When it comes to the supposed "DPS loss of 5% pet accuracy" numbers, I don't.
I have no idea what Kevee is basing his math on besides his own theories, especially when there are many factors no parser can even track (such as DoT crits, shadow flare crits, bane'd dots and their crits). There is no battle log evidence to analyze those example crits either, so he (as well as the rest of us) have no idea how many times more our DoTs are critting and how much it's adding up to in a long fight like Turn 5. I would think the longer the fight, the more DPS the extra crit adds, especially for those dots, and since those dots are going to be on MULTIPLE enemies SIMULTANEOUSLY (whereas garuda can only use wind blade on one enemy at a time) those crits will add to your overall DPS that much more.
I really wish I could see for myself how much damage that is. I know it's definitely a lot more than Garuda's single-target wind blade will ever produce with 5% more accuracy, but I do wish I knew how much more.
If just one more of my festers crit on a conflag, that makes up for at least 1 of garuda's 3 attacks missing (since he only has time to land 3 on a conflag even if you instantly target it with obey-- assuming your group has good dps), makes much more of a difference in bursting it, and will allow me to focus garuda back on twin faster. Depending on who's inside the conflag it can sometimes make the difference between firestorm going off or not. Using enkindle means you aren't attacking, and is actually worse DPS in that situation when you and garuda can attack simultaneously (just hitting fester + energy drain + ruin II as garuda attacks is better burst in that situation).
Conflags: Bane dot tic crits, fester crits, energy drain crits (on the fast conflags), ruin/ ruin II crits. Shadow flare crits (for when you're the one inside conflag) All much more important burst.
Snakes: The add snakes die within a handful of wind blades so it's better to keep garuda mostly on the boss snake. While he's on that snake, him missing 5% more is not going to make a difference in killing it. Once it gets 4 stacks of the debuff and your group is going nuts on DPS, it should die with plenty of time to spare. The only time it wouldn't is if you didn't have level 3 LB ready for it or your group messed up and lost the debuff stacks (before it hit 4). In both cases it is unlikely that the few wind-blades Garuda potentially misses because you have 5% less pet accuracy is the cause for failing.
Dreadknights: Your group might burst it faster than Garuda can even get 3 wind blades off on it, making his dps on them simply a bonus, not a necessity, and not an important factor whatsoever in bursting it (compared to, say, a fester crit or bane dot crits off twin / shadowflare crits). If you get chosen as the one who's "stunned" for that dreadnight, then you can't even put garuda on it. Your shadowflare, however, will still be hitting it, and if you bane the moment it appears you can infect him before your stunned.
I see a lot of theories without experience, parsers that can't accurately track the majority of our DPS (being referred to as reliable evidence), and exact number percentages that have no visible formula which factor in all of our different attacks.
I rather stick to reality and what I see working better or not working better... that's just me. -
11-22-2013, 04:02 AMpandabearcat
So while I agree with you in theory, you have a bunch of mathematical fallacies in your argument, and I wanted to go over them to make sure you know why people might not agree with you.
You're basically making the argument that "you can see crits, and they're big, and you can't really tell the difference accuracy makes".
Which is true, but doesn't make sense in this argument.
We're not...like talking about losing all crit to increase accuracy.
Here is a delta of like 40 or so stat points, right?
What people are saying is, 14 or 15 stat points is 1% crit gained or lost, and like i dunno, some amount of accuracy (Kevee says 4%) for your pet. This is based on the formulas on the valk site, which I can't remember the link for but is generally accepted as true.
Now the difference is between 1% crit and 4% pet accuracy.
General consensus from modeling and parsing is that pets are between 25-30% of your damage on a single target, that factors in crits, that factors in buffs, that does NOT factor in multidotting.
The more you multidot the less relative damage your pet does (with its own stats, i'm not talking about contagion here).
You also mentioned fester critting...which is irrelevant here because 1% higher chance of fester critting, you might as well say, but oh wait, what if my garuda misses twice during that time, because she has a 4% higher chance of missing. This setup for a scenario doesn't help prove the point one way or another.
You bring up crits again on the dread knight...again this is a fallacy. The chances of you getting one more crit are going to be similar to the chances of garuda missing twice or three times on that enemy...i mean you are really, really overselling the 1% crit and equating it to your entire crit chance, and also as if you could control your chances of critting.
I don't understand your reality of working better or not working better.
Did you try it with 1% crit and with 4% more accuracy? Did you test it hundreds of times? How else can you be statistically certain that any of trials weren't flukes one way or another?
Crit is the gamer's fallacy...in fact if you lost the ability to crit entirely, you still would be able to down these bosses.
That being said one point you made was good: what about multidotting and bane. This is a good question, as without a doubt multidotting does decrease the relative value of pet accuracy. You should look into and test this, but without this idea that somehow 1% crit is going to make or break you. -
11-22-2013, 04:32 AMKeveeNot to mention he/she is still completely disregarding the DET gain in addition the accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by pandabearcat
34 Crit (13.8 crit=1%. A little higher than my finding of 13.5, but they had a better sample) = 2.46% crit = 1.23% DPS.
70 Pet DPS(Which is, again, low) x .98 accuracy = 68.6 DPS for 445 Accuracy.
70 Pet DPS x .93 accuracy = 65.1 for 435 Accuracy.
I do apologize, I don't know where I got the 4.2 before, but the difference is 3.5 DPS for the accuracy alone. However, the better your gear and using the more realistic pet DPS, the bigger the gap and more value ACC gets. A more realistic DPS value is ~83-85 DPS. At 83 DPS, it's a difference of 4.15 DPS regarding the accuracy. Remember, crit is static. Accuracy is not. If you dip down to 415 Accuracy and use food to go to 435, you're in trouble. The pet has ~70-75% accuracy then.
For the 1.23% DPS to equal the 3.5 DPS difference from accuracy, you would need to do 284 DPS as the summoner itself(3.5/.0123). For the more realistic value of 4.15 DPS, the summoner itself would have to do 337 DPS to equal it.
While that is more realistic, this is not factoring in the DET gain, and is still too high. This poster is simply on the crit hype-train and thinks the pet is worthless, where it is actually our strongest "DoT."
Not even factoring in the burst DPS of the pet during Rouse/Spur, or the use of Enkindle, where misses have a lot more weight.
And, again, this is not even factoring in the DET gain.
No, it isn't. Especially not 1% crit.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
There's a reason I have my AF2 chest, but still use Vanya(until I get my AF2 boots or Allagan Boots).Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
The loss of Accuracy from 442 to 415 is way too much for the pet, and it's consistently been a DPS loss.
Wind blade "not helping much"? Are you joking? It's more than twice as strong as Bio, which is our strongest DoT, and that's not factoring in Rouse/Spur/Enkindle for burst scenarios, where it is more than 4 times as strong, per wind blade, than a Bio tick.
And, again, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
Besides Fester, Garuda is our strongest attack for all of turn 5. The burst potential, and flat out DPS. If Garuda misses once on a Conflag/Dreadknight, a Bio would have to crit ~4 times to make up for it. You can't make up for that on a short timeframe like Conflag/Dreadknight. -
11-22-2013, 04:34 AMxxalucard
I agree that I was making it sound like all crits vs no crits on a 1% difference and that's definitely far, far from the truth. I'm not trying to say that if you get more accuracy you won't crit the same (or even more if you're lucky with RNG).
I was trying to say that it's better to invest in even 1% crit over 5% pet accuracy, especially when your own accuracy is capped.
The point of the examples was more to say that the risk/reward of garuda missing 5% more vs gaining even 1% more crits from everything is more beneficial for turn 5, the turn most people are focused on with the pet accuracy cap.
I actually did run turn 5 at least a hundred times before we beat it. I know that's not high enough for the most accurate numbers, but I believe it's enough times to gauge the effectiveness of certain stat changes-- and I did so in different pieces of gear (around 30+ times in a vanya robe before I got the Summoner's Doublet). Of course the summoner's doublet is better and of course those aren't the specific items in question here, but I believe they are similar enough for me to say that I noticed as you gain in INT your crits get much more value, and when reaching the BiS scenario with the maximum INT possible, you'd get the most bang for your buck out of crit.
Mostly I noticed that Garuda's wind blade was not helping much in burst situations, and that in special turn 5 scenarios like the snake phase with the 4 stacks of debuffs, the crits you get can be HUGE (i once crit a fester for ~3527 on the big snake in a failed attempt, and my gear is not that great).
I'm not trying to say you won't crit with more accuracy. I'm saying that the potential of even a small amount of extra crits is more worth it than worrying about 5% of garuda's accuracy for the majority (if not all) the situations in turn 5. -
11-22-2013, 05:09 AMFUNgineer
All this anecdotal evidence :V
if 1% crit is the difference in consistently downing conflags and dreads or wiping then you should reconsider aetherflow management as opposed to worrying about pet missing or not.
that being said, I don't think I'd notice the difference in 1% crit because I haven't done twintania 100 times yet :V -
11-22-2013, 05:13 AMxxalucardI disregard it because no one knows how much DET = +1 damage to our attacks. I asked this before in another thread and no one seemed to be able to know for sure if even very large amounts of DET (100+) were really significantly affecting the damage or not. The only response I got with a number was something like "40 DET might equal +1 damage".Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
I don't think Garuda's worthless, I just don't believe that Garuda's occasional extra misses, even while under rouse or spur, will lead to a DPS loss that outweighs your DoTs extra crit potential throughout the fight. Rouse / spur / enkindle aren't up constantly like DoTs are and garuda can only target one thing at a time as he attacks. In a 13 minute fight your dots will tic quite a large number of times, even if you estimate the lower end of non-optimal uptime with them. With that many tics even 1% can actually add to a significant number of extra crits.Quote:
While that is more realistic, this is not factoring in the DET gain, and is still too high. This poster is simply on the crit hype-train and thinks the pet is worthless, where it is actually our strongest "DoT."
Not even factoring in the burst DPS of the pet during Rouse/Spur, or the use of Enkindle, where misses have a lot more weight.
But Bio can be on multiple things at once (as all your other dots) with a huge amount of up-time, while enkindle can only be used a few times in the fight. I do admit, though, that rouse and spur are added risks if he does miss because of the -5% accuracy.Quote:
There's a reason I have my AF2 chest, but still use Vanya(until I get my AF2 boots or Allagan Boots).
The loss of Accuracy from 442 to 415 is way too much for the pet, and it's consistently been a DPS loss.
Wind blade "not helping much"? Are you joking? It's more than twice as strong as Bio, which is our strongest DoT, and that's not factoring in Rouse/Spur/Enkindle for burst scenarios, where it is more than 4 times as strong, per wind blade, than a Bio tick.
However, Garuda does not gain from Raging Strikes. Your DoTs do. Raging Strikes adds even more value to your dot crit potential and when used in conjunction with contagion / bane (preferably both) it has a very high dps value for bonus crits while active.
I'm not trying to be a blind crit fanboy, though it may seem that way. There are at least a few good reasons behind my thinking (I hope). -
11-22-2013, 05:15 AMYukagamaYES YES But was just saying it would be nice if they did give us official statement for this but yeah of course Must be Tested for the players to find out.Quote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
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11-22-2013, 05:23 AMKeveeNo.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
Crit is a static, never-changing value. It will always add the same amount of DPS. Yes, a crit during RS will add more damage, but it doesn't add more DPS.
No. It will add 1% more crit.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
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11-22-2013, 05:33 AMT0rinI'm really big on crit too. There is a good deal of theorycrafting going on in the community in general for every class, to try to figure out realistic stat weights for everything. Nobody knows anything for sure, but what people have been able to anecdotally figure out is that crit is the best secondary stat for SMN by a good margin. Det is worth less, about roughly half as much as crit, maybe a little more. Spell speed is worth even less than Det, and is worth 1/3 to 1/4th as much as crit.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
If you take those assumptions to be true, the math on pet accuracy vs crit damage is still true. For Allagan Pants vs AF+1 Pants, when your pet is under the accuracy cap, the AF+1 pants are better by almost a margin of 3:1 for DPS contribution against a single target. It is true, that when regularly fighting more than 1 target, the boost to SMN DPS potential can come to outweigh any lost accuracy from Garuda. But, the way the math pans out, I think you would have to fight an average of 3 targets at all times for this particular scenario to work out better on behalf of the +crit rather than the pet accuracy.
But, it's all kind of a stupid argument, because as far as DPS for Accuracy trade-offs go, AF+1 Pants instead of Allagan pants is one of the WORST trade-offs that can be potentially made. -
11-22-2013, 08:08 AMFire-Dragon-DoL
Guys I've an important question. I've heared around that CAP for DET is 250, is it true? Is it a softcap maybe? Because my lv 90 gear choice changes heavily if that's true. Second point. Is crit cap 550? (even softcap). Let me know, both things are really important to choose my gear.
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11-22-2013, 08:30 AMhoraiyo
I thought they debunked the soft cap theory for det/crit, but I could be wrong.
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12-01-2013, 03:02 AMloqgames
full math in-depth summoner guide following