How does everyone feel about skill speed?

I think they should remove it and bring haste back skill speed is not useful to any class at the moment.

Mnk uses skill speed? You literally made this post before thinking about your topic for 5 seconds.

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Originally Posted by raikage

I think they should remove it and bring haste back skill speed is not useful to any class at the moment.

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Unlike what seems to be the majority of posters, I try not to make smart ass comments in a juvenile attempt to amuse myself and the other trolls whenever someone posts something that shows a clear lack of forethought...

That being said... would it help if you looked at skill speed as haste?

Think what he means is skill speed/spell speed doesn't detract much time from the GCD. I sorta agree, seems like you can get skill/spell speed pretty high and the difference is pretty minor IMO..

It is kind of a waste..

Sucks. Wastes TP. Get crit instead.

I'd like to see what the developers plan to make the game easier for melee does for TP drain.

Except skill speed isn't even true haste, as it does nothing for auto-attacks or TP generation like in FFXI.

It simply allows you to spam your attacks (but not abilities which is a key distinction) more often. Really this is only good with a BRD present otherwise you're just blowing through your TP more quickly rather than increasing your damage output directly.

Spell Speed is very useless yes ...
More than 420 in stats and I style need 2.38s to cast, so 400 in one stat to cast 0.17 faster ... Barely noticable. Not sure it is btw, I can't really test because it's on every part of my stuff.
Can you imagine what 400 in another stat could give to your char ? ^^

Skill speed is fine. People cry too much without having a good grasp of mechanics.

Oh well I guess its fine then..the authority on skill speed came by and deemed it so ..

In theory every single TP using class will run out of TP in a reasonable timeframe if they require constant uptime on target.

Thus, it is worthless if fights were like, 10-15 minutes of constant fighting.

Since they are not, we cannot conclude that skill speed is "worthless" but its pretty damn bad.

The other issue is "skill speed lets you get more attacks in for a cooldown". My take is it takes way too much skill speed, and you're better off with another stat.

The other main consideration is whether more skill speed will let monks (maybe dragoons too?) get another attack in inside their maintain rotation. I do not play either so don't know the breakpoints.

But the easy way to think about it is this: would you rather have all your offstats in skill speed? Or all your skill speed in another offstat?

And the answer to that question is easy. Thus, skillspeed is terrible. I won't say worthless, but its pretty bad.

I personally think the GCD is a bit much at 2.5 default, they should shave it down to 1.5. You're still limited by TP so I dont see it breaking anything. As far as the skillspeed stat itself, I would much rather see an overall haste stat replace it.

It's only pretty bad for Bards because Crit is good for Bards.

For DRGs and MNKs, skill speed is relatively on par for DPS considerations (although still typically slightly weaker), although it's de-prioritized because it comes with the slight TP burden.

Melding 101 crit will always increase your critical rate by 7%, while melding 101 speed will always reduce your GCD by 0.096.

Not considering procs, you would get 3.5% more DPS by melding crit.
Assuming you have a GCD of 2.4, you would get 4.175% more damage on your GCD abillities by melding speed.
Assuming you have a GCD of 2.3, you would get 4.364% more damage on your GCD abillities by melding speed.

The effects of critstats stay linear, while the ones on speedstats will get slightly better the more you stack them.
Speed has larger effects (usually more than 20%, which is alot) than crit but don't work on AA and dots. Speed leads to more TP consumption.
The mentioned 4.~% for speed are in practice also diminished, due to animationlocks when using offGCD abillities between GCD abillities.

Speed has also something like 'breakingpoints'. When you stack enough, you can fit one more action into timeframes of buffs.
That could allow the usage of superior rotations.

These are my thoughts on speed vs. crit.
I have no conclusion yet.

If the statvalues in question are low, I would probably take crit. But speed might become objectively better for certain classes, when you
stack the stat to very high amounts.

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Originally Posted by Aratak

Not considering procs, you would get 3.5% more DPS by melding crit.

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You would get [baseline crit %] less than 3.5% more relative DPS by melding crit.

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Assuming you have a GCD of 2.4, you would get 4.175% more damage on your GCD abillities by melding speed.

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You would get [AA+OGCD contribution%] less than 4.175% more relative damage from GCD abilities by melding speed. Sidenote: which you mention later.

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Speed has larger effects (usually more than 20%, which is alot) than crit but don't work on AA and dots. Speed leads to more TP consumption.

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DOT fallacy: skill speed improves DOT uptime. The actual damage delta (due to server DOT timing) is variable and more of a simulation exercise than anything. For a modeling exercise, DOT damage is increased directly with increased uptime.

Edit: Clarification: the fact that SS does not increase tick rate would be more impacting at higher values of skill speed -- e.g. after the SS stops improving uptime. However, for practical values of SS, it improves uptime.

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The mentioned 4.~% for speed are in practice also diminished, due to animationlocks when using offGCD abillities between GCD abillities.

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As a practical matter, animation locks only exist for DRGs where the jump animations exceed the slack time between GCD animations.

Edit: Or fringe circumstances where you intentionally try to throw a second OGCD between GCDs, but this is a utility topic (Bard silence), not a DPS output topic.


Edit2:

The only major takeaway is that skill speed does have accelerating returns at high values, countered by the accelerated TP drain. Generally speaking I'd expect to hit some pretty hard TP walls before a player sees any notable DPS accelerated returns.

Here's the thing though, you're assuming that you can just continuously spam skills and you can't, and this is where crit jumps ahead.

Fights like Titan for example, demand you stay mobile and thus interrupts your attack cycle. In these instances, skill speed is wasted because you can only nudge in so many attacks before having to move again whereas Crit Rate can greatly increase the value of said limited strikes. In a vacuum with unlimited TP, skill speed would likely (eventually) win out with enough of it stacked. However, from what I've personally seen and read (does anyone know if Kanican still plays?) the consensus does appear to be that skill speed is trash. Spell speed is only marginally better because it also affects casting times and not just the recast which can be a big deal for WHM & SCH.

Given the choice, I'd take crit rate & determination every time over skill speed.

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Here's the thing though, you're assuming that you can just continuously spam skills and you can't, and this is where crit jumps ahead.

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1. Bards can continuously spam skills more than most classes.

2. Crit doesn't jump ahead. It also stops when you can't continuously spam skills.

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whereas Crit Rate can greatly increase the value of said limited strikes

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Greatly? No.

Small amounts of skill speed is very much like small amounts of crit -- they're both unnoticeable.

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the consensus does appear to be that skill speed is trash

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Sometimes the consensus is that the Earth is flat.

I don't really care about the consensus. Skill speed is weak, but random idiots pretend it doesn't increase DPS at all, which is not true. They'd gladly trade away 30 SS for 5 DET or CRT or something, which is asinine.

Thx EasymodeX for your annotations.

I see what you mean with the relative DPS increase with crit being dependent on the critchance you already had before increasing the chance.
Didn't thought about that.
The relative DPS increase would be in my example 0.5*7%* 1/(1+prevCritChance) -> rel. DPS increase for melding crit ~3.04% at 15% baseline critchance

To evaluate the 4.~% in terms of relative DPS increase. I could calculate a factor with the knowledge of my AA DPS and my GCD abillities DPS at 100 potency multiplied by an guessed value based on my average potency on GCD abillities I use while fighting. That guessed value would be dependent on the used rotation and the conditions of the fight (interrutions etc.).
So as DRG I would guess values between 1.84 and 2.6~ for example, assuming I perform better than spamming Heavy Thrust and worse than the 27-actions rotation (without offGCD's) while fighting.

-1000 chars-

Example (assuming AA DPS = GCD DPS at 100 potency):
-> 4.~% * 2.4 / (2.4 +1) -> roughly 2.8~% to 3% rel. DPS increase for melding speed

Didn't understand exactly what you meant with the effects of speed on DOT's.
(Is it that you can "miss" a tick depending on the length of timegap between reapliing the DOT?)
Not considering that effect, I would agree that speed and crit are roughly on par in that example.

I would also like to hear your opinion on speed allowing better rotations; seems you know what you
are talking about.
For DRG specifically I think you could get an additional action in the timeframe of an Heavy Thrust
buff at about 585 base skillspeed and using speedfood.
That amount of skillspeed is very much possible to get with endgame gear when you are dedicated.

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Originally Posted by NefGP

Fights like Titan for example, demand you stay mobile and thus interrupts your attack cycle. In these instances, skill speed is wasted because you can only nudge in so many attacks before having to move again whereas Crit Rate can greatly increase the value of said limited strikes.

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I think I know what you are refering to. In case you got for example 10 sec to do damage, then you can do 4 attacks at 2.5 GCD and also 4 attacks when you had 2.4 and the speed had no effect.
In that example you would be right; speed did not cause more damage.

But in practice the times you can do damage are basically random variables (because you dodged for 0.8 seconds instead 0.6 seconds for example).

Basically when your attacks come in an frequency that is 10% higher you will have statistically an 10% higher chance to apply an additional attack in each of those cases.

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To evaluate the 4.~% in terms of relative DPS increase. I could calculate a factor with the knowledge of my AA DPS and my GCD abillities DPS at 100 potency multiplied by an guessed value based on my average potency on GCD abillities I use while fighting. That guessed value would be dependent on the used rotation and the conditions of the fight (interrutions etc.).

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Hum, you don't need to go to that level of detail. Basically, get a copy of someone's relatively decent parse and:

1. Find what % of total DPS is on-GCD (susceptible to SS), then increase that by 4.2%.
2. Add that to the remainder that is not modified by SS and subtract by 1.0.

E.g. if AAs are 29%, and OGCDs are 15%, then your on-GCD damage is 56%. 56% * 1.042 = 58.352. 58.352 + 29 + 15 = 102.352. Minus 100 is 2.35% increase in total DPS from the 100 SS.

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Didn't understand exactly what you meant with the effects of speed on DOT's.
(Is it that you can "miss" a tick depending on the length of timegap between reapliing the DOT?)

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Yes. DOT ticks happen every 3s on the server's timing. It doesn't track how much time you have left on the DOT debuff, only that the mob has your debuff on them.

Theoretically, adding SS will reduce the gap between DOTs, increasing the likelihood of covering the missed server ticks.

Sidenote: needs to be validated through simulation or advanced modeling.

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For DRG specifically I think you could get an additional action in the timeframe of an Heavy Thrust
buff at about 585 base skillspeed and using speedfood.

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The issue is that the Dragoon "good filler" is a 3-part TTT chain. No reasonable amount of SS will allow you 3 additional GCDs in a normal sequence of attacks. High SS will result in injecting a Fracture into the rotation, but that's about it, unless you get to really crazy amounts of SS.

Either way, it's not worth stacking even in the 585 range. All the way up to 585 the points would be better invested in CRT/DET, and after that, still CRT. And that doesn't factor the higher TP/s cost -- you'd be burning about 6-8% more total TP (or ~20% more TP after regen is removed).

he's right though. I use skill speed.. it's vital to my rotation. and my damage boost off of my rotation and all monk's rotation's greased lightning is 21 pct damage and 1/2 second skill speed buff.

same here. I would use skill speed so that I have better chances in keeping up grease lightning even while dodging AOEs or switching target to adds.

Skill speed gives very low returns (0.01 decrease per 10 points) and in you are TP capped in any fight that goes longer than 2 minutes. 491 Skillspeed (at this point you can comfortably swap between Twin Snakes and True Strike) and then crit after that.

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Originally Posted by raikage

Skill speed gives very low returns (0.01 decrease per 10 points) and in you are TP capped in any fight that goes longer than 2 minutes. 491 Skillspeed (at this point you can comfortably swap between Twin Snakes and True Strike) and then crit after that.

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I like how you say Skill Speed gives very low returns, and then you mention a 150 skill speed breakpoint.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

I like how you say Skill Speed gives very low returns, and then you mention a 150 skill speed breakpoint.

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I think his point is stacking it is useless, but you want a certain amount to do a certain thing.

aka value is terribad until hitting the breakpoint.

As long as TP regen is not affected by Skill Speed, it will remain a terrible stat.
This will be even more true when SE increase the uptime of melees on boss fight.

Also you must consider that Skill Speed is only an increase IF you have constant contact with your target. As soon as movement is required, Skill Speed become nearly obsolete.

That's a fallacy. Monks aside, having 100 SS (going from 2.5s to 2.4s GCDs) will enable you to finish the last attack that you would have otherwise been unable to execute, [4.2% * # of prior attacks] of the time.

E.g. if you have 10 attacks before the boss mechanics on your head, then there's a 42% chance that you gain an extra attack while leaving the boss due to skill speed.

It's funny to see people demand a 100% chance of a full new GCD from skill speed before it's worth anything, when they value crit so much even though it only gives a 7% chance for half of an attack.

Or by the same token you could increase the chance of those 10 attacks to do significantly more damage far outstripping a single extra swing (and conserving TP in the process).

Skill/Spell speed really ought to affect TP/MP recovery as well, then they might be competitive - especially if SE ever decides to bring back +crit damage which I was sad to see leave the game. Or if skill/spell speed affected auto-attack speed as well. It needs *something* to really be competitive, as it's nowhere near as good as Haste was in FFXI (not that I want it to be - Haste was entirely too strong in XI, but SS is far too weak in XIV).

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

That's a fallacy. Monks aside, having 100 SS (going from 2.5s to 2.4s GCDs) will enable you to finish the last attack that you would have otherwise been unable to execute, [4.2% * # of prior attacks] of the time.

E.g. if you have 10 attacks before the boss mechanics on your head, then there's a 42% chance that you gain an extra attack while leaving the boss due to skill speed.

It's funny to see people demand a 100% chance of a full new GCD from skill speed before it's worth anything, when they value crit so much even though it only gives a 7% chance for half of an attack.

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You are making skill speed simpler than it is.

Every attack you make at a GCD lower than 2.5 is time banked equal to the difference between the two GCDs. For every 24 hits a 2.5 GCD makes, a 2.4 GCD will make 25. It will take 60 seconds of uninterrupted fighting to guarantee that extra hit; assuming you are executing abilities on time, not using off GCD abilities, and not pausing for positional changes. Every millisecond you waste not fighting after the GCD resets will mean an equal amount of banked time lost, which will have to be built back up again before you benefit from a guaranteed extra hit.

Like you said, banked time for an extra attack can be cashed in if you disengage before your higher GCD self has caught up. However, this is entirely based human error and boss mechanics. Assuming no human error and constant boss mechanics, the extra attack will either be hit or missed when disengaging, with no in between. SS would have to be adjusted on a boss by boss basis to benefit from it. If not and you end up missing your extra hit every time you disengage, then you end up with a situation where banked time depletes every time you disengage longer than GCD reset, and that guaranteed extra hit could end up happening as late as 2 minutes instead of 1 minute.

Is a guaranteed extra hit every 2 minutes with 100 more SS worth it? I think the 2 minutes is an exaggeration, but it is possible if you lose all your banked time every time you disengage. Again, entirely based on boss mechanics and human error.

From what I found out on my sumn. 100ss increase means 1 more attack every 2min of nonstop attacks. The effect of spell speed on cast time is 2843-(ss)~round to 3 digits and move the decimal. so my ss right now is 441 so. 2843-441=2402 rounded to 240=2.40cast/recast time. So in the end i would give up ss for more damage stat.

wtf is a "DOT fallacy" lmao

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Originally Posted by kysulli

You are making skill speed simpler than it is...

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Sorry, I'm not a native speaker. What I understand from your post is that you are talking about 2 different effects that undermine the effectiveness of better skillspeed.

Effect one: Human Error) With higher GCD frequency a player loses more time overall, because of missing to push the hotkey for the next GCD abillity exactly on time. I think that point might be valid.
But in my experience even on 2.28 seconds GCD I start spamming the button for the next action before the timeframe closes. I am not sure how the client works in that regard, but I know from other MMO's that there are mechanics that will assure a continous flow of GCD abillities when you hit the button a certain time before GCD timeframe wears off. Meaning when I start spamming the button before the GCD is available I would be fine and don't lose any time.


-1000 chars-

If that is the case your point would however still be valid in cases the player really starts hitting the buton too late. But I think that happens quite rarely; as DRG I can easily switch between rear and flank while maintaining my attacks.
All in all it is hard to tell if effect one actually happens in practice.

Effect two: Disengaging) The player 'loses' the future additional attack provided by skillspeed whenever he disengages from the mob before he makes said attack. I think that is not true and important to understand. 'Disengaging' happens basically on in two different forms: Purposely (for example when you switch to an add) ore forced (Boss disappears or knocks you back for example). I made a post on the latter case earlier in this thread and reasoning that skillspeed will statisticly don't lose its effectiveness then.

-1000 Chars-

When you purposely disengage before using your additional attack:

Let's say you have saved up some time due to skillspeed. For example you made 10 attacks with 2.4 sec GCD compared to someone who did 10 attacks with 2.5 sec GCD. So you would be one second ahead. When you then run to an add you will still be 1 second ahead when reaching said add in comparsion, since you would have started running 1 second earlier (or something equivalent when you chose to do one more attack on the boss) than the slower player. When the add is dead you run back to the boss and will still be that one second ahead + 0.1 seconds per attack you made on the add.
I hope with that example it becomes clear that you usually don't 'lose' the progress on building up a future additional attack when you purposely disengage.

You lose the progress only when the boss disappears and there are no other targets to reach within a certain timeframe.
EDIT: As you mentioned, depending on bossmechanics

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Originally Posted by kysulli

For every 24 hits a 2.5 GCD makes, a 2.4 GCD will make 25. It will take 60 seconds of uninterrupted fighting to guarantee that extra hit;

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It takes 72 seconds at 2.5 GCDs per attack to guarantee 2 crits from 100 crit rating that matches the 1 extra attack from skill speed.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

DOT fallacy: skill speed improves DOT uptime. The actual damage delta (due to server DOT timing) is variable and more of a simulation exercise than anything. For a modeling exercise, DOT damage is increased directly with increased uptime.

Edit: Clarification: the fact that SS does not increase tick rate would be more impacting at higher values of skill speed -- e.g. after the SS stops improving uptime. However, for practical values of SS, it improves uptime.

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Depends on the DoT.

Bio II for example has a 30 second duration. The default 2.5 GDC divides cleanly into it and each additional GDC reduction up until 2.4 either forces you to sacrifice Bio II uptime or clip your Bio II early.

Realistically neither clipping it nor letting it fall off for 1 second actually affects your dps in any meaningful fashion.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Realistically neither clipping it nor letting it fall off for 1 second actually affects your dps in any meaningful fashion.

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It does if the DoT was due to proc during that 1 second. That's a missed 35 potency.

If you clipped every single BioII by 1 second, you would end up with 1/5th of a GCD saved every 3 minutes. You would lose a GCD every 15 minutes.

If you clipped every single Bio I (why would you, instacast) by 1 second, you would miss .6 of a GCD every 3 minutes. You lose 1 GCD every ~5 minutes.

It really, really does not matter.