SCH DPS > SMN DPS?

A friend of mine who is a SCH is arguing that his DPS is far superior than a SMN dps. I don't understand why that would be true. A parser is nothing to him so does anyone have any hard proof of either side?

what?
same base class,same class abilities.
even if a sch put points and geared like if he was a smn the smn would do more damage cause the sch's pet is for healing and the smn pet is obviously for damage.
don't count the pets and there literally identical if stats were set the same,cause you know....there the same class.

side note:if this is true,please do post your friends argument.would love too see it.

He said what you are saying is invalid cause you didn't count in cleric stance

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Originally Posted by KaisaaVonFaust

He said what you are saying is invalid cause you didn't count in cleric stance

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Tell him he's a nonsensical idiot.

lol thats what we are trying to prove.. trying to show he is in denial

Cleric Stance is only going to give him about the same amount of intelligence as a Summoner if we were to say they had the same grade of gear. That with everything LostCody already mentioned and the difference is obvious. Not to mention Summoner also gets Spur, Tri-Disaster, and Fester..

im using parse right now.. but its "completely inaccurate" so.

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Originally Posted by KaisaaVonFaust

im using parse right now.. but its "completely inaccurate" so.

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well the simulation for dots is there, there are a few things that the parser doesn't track though, shadowflare, contagion and multidots/bane.

SCHs doesn't have contagion, he shouldnt multi dot when parsing single target, so the only thing he should be worried about is tracking shadowflare, which is easy to add since it does not crit.

guys thank you! Glim thank you also ^^

I've done whitemage scholar bard pally on ak a few times, scholar is obviously dpsing and we still manage to kill demon wall without killing the bees. I've also tried with a summoner friend instead but with that summoner the bees don't even have a chance to spawn

Smn gets fester spur enkindle raging strikes and a better dps pet. scholar gets cleric stance and aero.
summoner wins but not by as much a margin as I think they should.

SMN has Fester and a pet that actually does DPS.

/thread

Unless the summoner is horribly undergeared, there is no circumstance that scholar would do more damage. Summoner has spur, rouse, enkindle, fester and damage focused pets. Cleric stance alone will not put scholar on top.

Can anyone explain to me what really did happen to all the SMNs when the game first started? There was so many!

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Originally Posted by KaisaaVonFaust

Can anyone explain to me what really did happen to all the SMNs when the game first started? There was so many!

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dot classes are unpopular, it's why warlocks are the least played class in WoW despite having the highest dps in the current raid content. (besides monk, but monks are new and only appeared in the latest expansion)

dots feel 'slow' and nukes makes you feel powerful.

-Fester is 55-60 DPS

- Raging Strikes is a ~3% personal DPS increase, but for the 20s it's up it's a very big increase.

-SMN pet is ~60-90 DPS.

-Contagion.


Yeah, he's wrong, because Cleric Stance will most likely only account for the base INT difference between SCH/SMN, and Aero will be ~35 DPS, max.

So how do they make up for the other lost 100 DPS?

I made this thread for him so i hope he comes here and tries to explain himself instead of me relaying messages. I am making a summoner now myself just so i can prove it! haha

really the only argument you could possibly bring up would be the support pet in a raid setting and the overall grp dps being higher because of it when you dps as SCH instead of a SMN. Other than that I don't see it and I just stumbled on this thread and only play smn/Sch for fun so I don't really care enough to do the actual math =s

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Yeah, he's wrong, because Cleric Stance will most likely only account for the base INT difference between SCH/SMN, and Aero will be ~35 DPS, max.

So how do they make up for the other lost 100 DPS?

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It's not that simple. Cleric stance is a 10% boost on all spells.

Its not Fester vs nothing. It's Fester vs Energy Drain, or rather, 300 vs 165 potency (150 x 10% cleric stance).

It's all the DoTs that smn has, as well as Ruin spam, multiplied by 10% and add Aero. Also probably add Thunder too, because with Energy Drain spam, a SCH wont have MP issues and can afford to spam Thunder in the rotation.

Finally, Selene also has a 30% spell speed buff thats up 1/2 the time. Its around a 10% reduction in GCD times.

It all comes down to: is all that enough versus the ~66 dps of Garuda? Probably not.. then factor this: Selene buffs the entire PT's dps by ~10%. Is THAT enough? Probably is!

@Ayla

selene's buff doesn't increase everyone's dps by 10%, for me personally fey glow only decreases my spellspeed by 0.14, that's around 140 spellspeed every 30 seconds, or 70 average spellspeed. 70 spellspeed is not a 10% dps increase, and even when considering the entire party, I'm confident that the 66 dps of garuda out dpses this marginal increase and even when compared to the whole party, it's basically just giving .56 total cast decrease to the raid as a whole (not each). (spellspeed ep value is really low for every class)

high int from items > cleric stance

my scholar hits 160 ruins with cleric stance and the arcanist 30 int, with all the possible int items ie. jewelries, my summoner hits 200 damage ruins

scholars cannot out dps summoners, but it's a lot closer than I thought.

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Originally Posted by AylaYukihana

Its not Fester vs nothing. It's Fester vs Energy Drain, or rather, 300 vs 165 potency (150 x 10% cleric stance).

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60-90 + [(55~60)/1.8] = Roughly 100 DPS less, base.

SCH having less int + cleric's stance is no where close to that, and selene's buff is garbage.

Not to mention Cleric Stance does nothing for SF.

And spell speed is virtually useless for SMN.

I equipped my full darklight SMN set and garuda dps book (since my scholar doesn't have +1 relic)

my SMN was hitting 160-170 ruins.

I equipped my scholar gear with int jewelries and garuda book (armor pieces with no int)
cleric stance

my SCH was hitting 149-160 ruins.

but what if instead of armor pieces with no int, craft vanya healing set melded with int in them.

scholar might out damage the smn when it comes to pound for pound potency..

the question is, is having aero and unlimited mana over fester enough? let's see, fester is 900 potency per minute vs energy drain 450 potency per minute, so the difference is 500. aero is 650 potency per minute, but uses a gcd so let's minus three ruins so it's aero's 410 potency per minute vs fester's 500 per minute. 90 ppm difference.. really not that much, not sure if having unlimited mana compensates the 90 ppm difference though.

the difference really is just coming from the pet, garuda vs selene. well it's pretty obvious that selene loses in terms of dps, but well she helps heal and buff group dps slightly, oh rouse,spur and enkindle too.

SMN outdpses the scholar in the end, but damn, never thought a healer class' dps could come this close.

EDIT: actually, I'm stupid, this is the first time I've read cleric stance and it says "swaps int and mind attribute ratings" so melding vanya healing gears with int is pretty darn useless.

In identical level gear, a Scholar should do 10% more dps than a Summoner if both classes use -equivalent spells-. That is, a Scholar's Bio, Miasma, Bio 2 and Ruins should hit 10% harder than a Summoner's. This assumes that a Scholar in good gear can get basically the same Mind as a Summoner can get Int, and then using Cleric Stance to swap them for 10% extra damage.

The difference of course is a.) the pet's dps, b.) swapping Energy Drain for Fester, c.) extra Ruins due to Contagion allowing less dot casts and d.) Raging Strikes as a DPS cooldown.

You have to compare those with Selene's cast/attack speed buff. There's no way a Scholar will be able to out-dps a Summoner in equivalent gear, but a Scholar can definitely contribute incredibly significant DPS to a party in situations they arent required to spam heal. I'd wager OPs friend is napkin-mathing the 10% boost from Cleric Stance and isnt aware of just how much damage Pet/Contagion/Fester actually adds.

EDIT - just checked on my 50 Arcanist. Both of my Scholar and Summoner have basically identical gear but with mind/int swapped (eg, garuda weapons, strategos vs demagogue etc), and I run a 15/15 Mind/Int stat setup as it's not my main. Thus, both classes have identical amounts of Int and Mind respectively on their gear. My Summoner has 391 Int, my Scholar has 376 Mind. The extra int comes from the +12 total from Enhanced Intelligence Traits, and I think 3 difference on base stats + Soul Crystal.

So a Summoner will always have +15 Int more than an equal geared Scholar has Mind, which should equate to less of a damage boost than a flat 10% from Cleric Stance. Don't forget in testing that spells have variable values. My ruins hit the same target anywhere from 150 to 170 damage varying. Swapping between Cleric'd Scholar and Summoner, I'm seeing next to no noticeable difference in the power levels of the spells.

So TLDR - Summoner and Scholar do about the same DPS if you don't factor in the Pet, Raging Strikes, Fester and Contagion. How much more DPS a Summoner brings to the party is about comparing those 4 DPS sources with how much total party DPS Selene's speedbuffs add, which will vary based on party size/composition/gearing.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

In identical level gear, a Scholar should do 10% more dps than a Summoner if both classes use -equivalent spells-..

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Don't forget the SCHs lack of Accuracy, if they're using MND/Healing gear, and the lack of a secondary stat on accessories since those come with piety(unless you use crafted).

They'd be forced to use Vanya and/or accessories socketed completely with ACC(for coil), and unless you do use those there is no way you're even coming close to a SMN anywhere. You completely lose out on a substat since healer items come with Piety.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

So TLDR - Summoner and Scholar do about the same DPS if you don't factor in the Pet, Raging Strikes, Fester and Contagion. How much more DPS a Summoner brings to the party is about comparing those 4 DPS sources with how much total party DPS Selene's speedbuffs add, which will vary based on party size/composition/gearing.

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That's well over a 100 DPS difference.

It's not going to vary, the speedbuffs are not going to add that.

Personally, for me, it gives me ~.2 seconds off my GCD. So it takes ~12-13 GCDs, only while the buff is present, to see any noticeable gain("gaining" a GCD), which will most likely be used for Ruin. 80 potency.

And it's not going to be real useful for melee, and especially BRD. BRD actually has a near-zero value for skill speed due to the way they want to time their DoTs.

The google docs now need requested permission, but some info is here:

http://chocobro.com/forum/viewtopic....&t=32&start=30

Remember, skill/spell speed increases DPS but not damage, and it can't increase DPS past the point of MP/TP returns. The DPS gain is marginal for most classes/jobs, however. SMN/SCH/BRD/MNK/DRG all see less returns than other classes/jobs due to relying on DoTs and strict timers(not to mention how GL and Skill Speed for MNK/PUG work against each other), and how fast they bleed dry if they need to AoE at all.

Oh yes, don't get me wrong - I know Summoner is miles ahead of Scholar. I hadn't considered the Accuracy as Determination/Crit will be pretty similar between the two and I'm used to only using my Arcanist -outside- of Coil where accuracy is pretty much capped anyway. But yes, you'll need to do some fiddling with melds to make it remotely viable.

My main thought was "what could possibly make the OP's friend think Scholar was better", and I think the answer to that is simple. In most cases, Scholar DOTs will do slightly more DPS than Summoner DoTs. Maybe about 5%, the difference between the 15 Intellect and the 10% Cleric Stance boost. So with a class so heavily dot-focussed, seeing Scholar DoTs do more dps on paper might lead someone to assume they do more dps in total.

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Originally Posted by glim

EDIT: actually, I'm stupid, this is the first time I've read cleric stance and it says "swaps int and mind attribute ratings" so melding vanya healing gears with int is pretty darn useless.

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Yup, A SCH would focus on MND to boost healing, so cleric stance just changes it to INT. SCH gets bonus MND from traits as well. Essentially its the same INT.

Its not 3 x 300 Festers vs 3 x 150 Energy Drains, its 3 x (150 x 1.1 due to Cleric Stance = 165) = 495, difference in a minute is 405 pot via Fester for the SMN. Aero is 200 pot, minus the GCD which could be spent on Ruin, is an advantage of 120 pot. Lets give it ~400 pot per minute. It almost cancels out the advantage Fester has. Now, bc of Energy Drain spam, SCH has MP to spend on Thunder. Thats 240 pot for a GCD use, minus Ruin its a 160 pot advantage.

SCH's personal dps is ~10% higher if accuracy is not an issue. Thunder spam, Sel's buffs.. versus SMN's ~66 dps from the pet.

Edit: In a PT situation, can see clearly SCH with Sel buffing the PT cast speed and skill speed, actually might pull ahead of a SMN. Also, I forgot to add Cleric Stance 10% boost to Aero and Thunder, its actually 220 and 264 potency, meaning a SCH with energy drain and Aero is dishing out more potency per minute than SMN with Fester.. add extra Thunder spam.. its a big difference to personal dps.

Always been curious about dots and raging strike. Haven't been able to find anything to back up the idea it's worthwhile to use or if it just works on the first tic of a dot and that's it.

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Originally Posted by AylaYukihana

Yup, A SCH would focus on MND to boost healing, so cleric stance just changes it to INT. SCH gets bonus MND from traits as well. Essentially its the same INT.

It almost cancels out the advantage Fester has. Now, bc of Energy Drain spam, SCH has MP to spend on Thunder. Thats 240 pot for a GCD use, minus Ruin its a 160 pot advantage.

SCH's personal dps is ~10% higher if accuracy is not an issue. Thunder spam, Sel's buffs.. versus SMN's ~66 dps from the pet.

Edit: In a PT situation, can see clearly SCH with Sel buffing the PT cast speed and skill speed, actually might pull ahead of a SMN. Also, I forgot to add Cleric Stance 10% boost to Aero and Thunder, its actually 220 and 264 potency, meaning a SCH with energy drain and Aero is dishing out more potency per minute than SMN with Fester.. add extra Thunder spam.. its a big difference to personal dps.

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MND passive doesn't convert with Cleric Stance.
SCH has a stat deficiency unless they use full iLVL 70 items(healing items come with Piety instead of a second offensive substat).
SMN uses Thunder, too.
Cleric Stance doesn't effect Shadow Flare.
et cetera, et cetera.

At most, Cleric Stance/Aero makes up for Fester/15 less INT, but not for Spur/Pet/Contagion/Raging Strikes/Enkindle. All of these make up for a substantial amount of our DPS.

Those buffs are fairly useless, except to BLM/WHM/PLD/(healing)SCH. Even they(BLM) are limited by the global timer when regenerating MP, however.

Now, I would agree that Sch would do ~5-7% more damage, base, but that in no way comes close to compensating for Pet/Spur/Enkindle/Contagion/Raging Strikes/necessitating HQ ilvl 70 gear.

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Originally Posted by GameGeeks

Always been curious about dots and raging strike. Haven't been able to find anything to back up the idea it's worthwhile to use or if it just works on the first tic of a dot and that's it.

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If you use/cast a DoT, and the debuff lands on the target, while Raging Strikes is present on you, the full duration(and extension with Contagion) will have boosted damage. So SMN goes way beyond the RS timer with boosted DoTs. At a minimum, Bio II has 45 seconds, Bio has 33 seconds, Miasma has 39 seconds, Thunder has 33 seconds, and Miasma II has 30 seconds worth of RS time.

Um... I thought Cleric Stance switches the numbers of INT and MND....?

Ex:
Base
INT - 100
MND - 120

After using Cleric Stance
INT - 120
MND - 100

So when you are testing, why would you gear out SCH in Int gear, and put the 30 points into INT? You should be putting points/gearing into MND for Cleric Stance to actually work.... no?


EDIT: I just noticed someone a couple posts up said the same thing. Guess I'm just reiterating what was already said. Go me. I'm a winner.

Your friend is being silly, but not by nearly as much as you think. Healers, scholars in specific, put out INSANE dps. Their DoT's tick harder (minus shadow flare which is identical) and they have 1 additional DoT. Their ruins hit ~10 harder, energy drain, while not as strong as fester, is still pretty damn good, Selaine's DPS buffs are better then they seem on paper. (assuming 8 man) Which at the very least makes up the difference from energy drain vs fester. SMNs however, have a DPS pet Which is barely higher then aero DPS. So the only thing you have on SCHs is offensive CDs. SCHs have none, and you have 4(?) Raging, Spur, Enkindle, and Contagion. Honestly SCHs (and WM's) DPS is a lil to high when in cleric stance IMO.

However with all that said, they real question your should be asking yourself is, "Is Arcanist DPS higher then SMN DPS."
Internal Release, Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, and Aero, on top of shining emerald sounds absolutely disgusting.

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Originally Posted by Swick

SMNs however, have a DPS pet Which is barely higher then aero DPS.

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Lol? Aero is going to do ~20 DPS. Pets are 60(min) to 90~100(for me)

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Originally Posted by Swick

However with all that said, they real question your should be asking yourself is, "Is Arcanist DPS higher then SMN DPS."
Internal Release, Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, and Aero, on top of shining emerald sounds absolutely disgusting.

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And then you realize ACN has no access to relic/AF2, can't realistically get the Allagan tome(so BiS is Garuda/Titan), has 15 less base INT, no Garuda(Contagion, mostly)/Spur/Fester/Enkindle. Also, you lose Swiftcast as a CCS because you need the 5 slots for CDs/Thunder/Aero.

ACN is probably lower, or equal, to SCH.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

If you use/cast a DoT, and the debuff lands on the target, while Raging Strikes is present on you, the full duration(and extension with Contagion) will have boosted damage. So SMN goes way beyond the RS timer with boosted DoTs. At a minimum, Bio II has 45 seconds, Bio has 33 seconds, Miasma has 39 seconds, Thunder has 33 seconds, and Miasma II has 30 seconds worth of RS time.

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I can understand that being a good thing, but I'm more looking for the data to prove it. Worse case I just get a target dummy and try it. Not like it's hard to get to level four in Archer, especially with armory xp bonus.

And for your last post, Arcanists do have access to Contagion. Just goes by Shinning Emerald. Same effect as Contagion. Though the rest mostly stands in terms of gear.

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Originally Posted by GameGeeks

I can understand that being a good thing, but I'm more looking for the data to prove it. Worse case I just get a target dummy and try it. Not like it's hard to get to level four in Archer, especially with armory xp bonus.

And for your last post, Arcanists do have access to Contagion. Just goes by Shinning Emerald. Same effect as Contagion. Though the rest mostly stands in terms of gear.

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You don't need any data.

That's how DoTs work.

They take a snap-shot of whatever buffs/debuffs you have when you apply them.

Same goes for Cleric Stance, BRD and their DoTs/Buffs, everyone.

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Originally Posted by GameGeeks

And for your last post, Arcanists do have access to Contagion. Just goes by Shinning Emerald. Same effect as Contagion. Though the rest mostly stands in terms of gear.

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Yeah, I derped. No reason to edit it now that's it been quoted.

If scholars had an offensive pet, I could see them giving smn a run for its money.

Which btw, is one of the massive flaws of the job system, how the base class determines about 95% of your combat efficacy.

The rest is just the fact you can equip better gear, stats.

But no pet = frown.

Also, whats interesting is, SCH does have a much bigger mana pool, so I can see them being better in instances where the smn is oom.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

If scholars had an offensive pet, I could see them giving smn a run for its money.

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IF SCH had an offensive pet they would easily beat SMN. As it is, its not that big a gap.

While SMN can equip Thunder, it uses a lot of MP, twice that of Aero/Bio. I doubt a SMN can sustain that kind of spam with using charges on Fester instead of Enery Drain (165 potency in cleric stance).

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

If scholars had an offensive pet, I could see them giving smn a run for its money.
Also, whats interesting is, SCH does have a much bigger mana pool, so I can see them being better in instances where the smn is oom.

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even if sch got the same pets as a smn garuda,titan,ifrit then it would be a festerless smn.
fester is 1 of smn best spells and only reliable burst outside of rouse,spur enkindle combo(which is also only available too smn)and over a long fight and even during adds the lack of fester would be noticeable.
even with the combo and fester smn is still lackluster when it comes too burst and it only allows smn too get by barely when it comes down too certain phases were a lot of damage is needed quickly.
so even if what you say is true why would anyone pick a gimped smn who might do more base damage but has a more serious burst problem over lets say a full smn or blm?

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Originally Posted by Kevee

You don't need any data.

That's how DoTs work.

They take a snap-shot of whatever buffs/debuffs you have when you apply them.

Same goes for Cleric Stance, BRD and their DoTs/Buffs, everyone.

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It does if it's just the first tick. I get how dots work. That's not the issue. The issue is whether or not it does actually last the first dot or just the initial tic. Or if the buff end early even if the dot is still going. Lost of ways they could have programed it to work with dots.

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Originally Posted by LostCody

it would be a festerless smn.
...do more base damage but has a more serious burst problem over lets say a full smn or blm?

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Been over this, Aero AND Energy Drain is worth the difference of lacking Fester over a long duration (its even better). If you talk about burst, whats the time scale? 10 seconds? In 10 seconds, 3 energy drain in cleric stance is worth 495 potency, requiring no setup of 3 DoTs to burst. In that time window, a SMN would need 7.5s to setup 3 dots. Fester has a 10s cooldown.

Now how about AOE? SCH dots do 10% extra damage without needing raging strikes. Bane these dots, shadowflare, then tab spam aero. What's a SMN gonna do after Bane/Shadowflare, tab spam Ruin? That is heaps weaker in potency compared to Aero for the same GCD.

Enkindle is nice, but 300s cooldown is too long. Over long term it contributes very little to overall dps.

ps. SMN isn't wanted for burst, if ppl absolutely need short term burst, they go with BLM.

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Originally Posted by AylaYukihana

ps. SMN isn't wanted for burst, if ppl absolutely need short term burst, they go with BLM.
Aero AND Energy Drain is worth the difference of lacking Fester over a long duration (its even better).
3 energy drain in cleric stance is worth 495 potency, requiring no setup of 3 DoTs to burst. In that time window, a SMN would need 7.5s to setup 3 dots. Fester has a 10s cooldown.

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lets ignore everything else for a second.
what made you think I said smn is wanted for burst?
I even said twice that smn has pretty bad burst. please actually read my post before giving me a p.s.

so your planning on just using energy drain and aero?your going too setup those dots anyway.
also if what you say is true then 3 energy drains and a aero= 1 fester.
then first off,energy drain is on a 3 sec independent cd so 3=9seconds 1 off from a fester but uses all your aether too equal 1 aether charge of a single fester,which you then can use 2 more times while your 3 other energy drains are waiting for aetherflow for 50 more seconds.
lets go too the best case scenario for your burst,a small weak add like a feather plume or something similar.yeah your right it would burst down the target faster then it would for smn too setup.but anything with more hp,you would do your damage be out of aether then have too setup anyway too finish him off and by that time a smn would have already set up and be on his 2 fester already wrecking your burst.
even if there were no decent hp adds,were there is 1 small add there are many...then what?

Bane is something a sch cant have access too and is even better if your spread with contagion,the ability too spread that amount of damage with only needing too setup on 1 target not only does a ton of damage but also lets you..yes spam more ruins then you could if you had too dot everyone one of them individually.
so any questions?

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Originally Posted by AylaYukihana

It's not that simple. Cleric stance is a 10% boost on all spells.

Its not Fester vs nothing. It's Fester vs Energy Drain, or rather, 300 vs 165 potency (150 x 10% cleric stance).

It's all the DoTs that smn has, as well as Ruin spam, multiplied by 10% and add Aero. Also probably add Thunder too, because with Energy Drain spam, a SCH wont have MP issues and can afford to spam Thunder in the rotation.

Finally, Selene also has a 30% spell speed buff thats up 1/2 the time. Its around a 10% reduction in GCD times.

It all comes down to: is all that enough versus the ~66 dps of Garuda? Probably not.. then factor this: Selene buffs the entire PT's dps by ~10%. Is THAT enough? Probably is!

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that's actually not how Selene works...

the tooltip is misleading, it's a 30% skillspeed buff.. as in your spell/skillspeed stat on your character sheet.

if you've got enough gear on to reduce your GCD by .06 seconds, selene will bump that to .08.. it's a tiny tiny tiny buff that's actually outclassed by Eos' aoe regen ala - http://xivdb.com/?skill/90120/Enhanced-Pet-Actions

that spell speed is actually as much as advertised.

more to the point, you should be comparing energy drain to fester, and aero + cleric stance to garuda + raging strikes

those are the only real differences... although the pet alone trumps cleric stance and aero unless we're talking about an aoe situation where bane'd dots have the benefit of cleric stance...

but... a summoner's bane'd dots are going to have the benefit of raging strikes and/or contagion

not sure why you bring up thunder for a scholar and not a summoner though... it's better damage:mp for summoners as well as scholars.. not to mention better dps than ruin spam for both..