Endgame too challenging and teamwork based (Hear me out)!

Im a gamer who loves a challenge. I dont scoff at hard difficulty in games, but in an MMO such as FFXIV difficult dungeons/bosses present a unique problem.

Eight people doing something correctly together, coordinating together is very time consuming, and just feels frustrating. If one key role dies such as a healer or tank, the fight goes sour. If someone misses a AOE dodge or does not know the fight it becomes a problem. This is the primary concern of the Duty finder in endgame.

Ive done the whole teamwork thing. Im in a FC, ran COIL turn 1 and 2 using mumble/teamspeak, use linkshells for good groups, etc but it just comes off as frustrating. Spending up to an hour trying to get people on to do the content, and then the content you attempt is just riddled with tons of mechanics to all be familiar with. All 8 players mind you to perform perfectly.

Its time consuming and frustrating to get that level of cooperation with 8 players, even if your all in chat/FC. Its not even challenging, simply learning the fight perfectly. No skill just memory. Tons of trial and error.

The Snake boss of Coil turn 1 for instance has some complex mechanics. The floors, splitting, minion eating, making sure the minions are low HP, its a lot for 8 people to all get correct to pull off. It just comes off as unfun and annoying.

I feel the point of MMO's is a slight challenge with en emphasis of working together and grinding towards a goal, not a teamwork/skill check. I feel the difficulty should never exceed Ifrit HM or Amdapor Keep. That way you could skip the wasted time forming a group and attempting content over and over and just Duty finder it and get right to the fun/grind.

Coil turn 1/2? I'm sorry what did you expect WoW-esque LFR where 6 out of 25 people could be afk, another 6 dead, another 6 incompetent and still clear everything flawlessly in an hour?

I have played WoW, I have played XIV, I have played ToR, I have played Rift, and in not ONE of those games has the endgame been "problematic" for the reasons you state, I suggest you find more skilled players to play with, or reexamine your own skill level as thusfar I've yet to hear anyone else describe Coil turns 1/2 as "difficult" or "Challenging".

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AK? Ifrit HM? "Difficulty"? I'm sorry but what difficulty? Both of those fights are nearly impossible to fail, I'm fairly sure you can stand in >50% of the mechanics in both of those and not die...sorry maybe you should go back to doing LFR in WoW.

OP...*shakes finger* No.... NO.... BAD.... no!

Pretty much what Tenkiei said. Find other people.

Typical reply "Get better".

My skill is fine, my point is getting 8 competent people together to play decently is problematic. You actually have to schedule time to run things with people. I feel content should be attainable at anytime and should not be so difficult that you have to have all very good players to do it.

If you think your right and the content is not that hard, please duty finder Titan and let me know who that works out.

If you think turn 1 is hard, wait until 4. Not only do you need to execute as a team, you need the damage to kill stuff before the next wave comes.

its not hard or challenging imo, its pretty fun and engaging. Get a FC or something and stop trying to force pugs to work when your talking about coils.

The problem with DF titan is people try and are severely under geared for it. That is why it should have a gear check at least

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Originally Posted by SinisterJoint

its not hard or challenging imo, its pretty fun and engaging. Get a FC or something and stop trying to force pugs to work when your talking about coils.

The problem with DF titan is people try and are severely under geared for it. That is why it should have a gear check at least

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IM guessing you just read my title and replied without reading... I already said I do it with my FC and fill with Linkshell. I feel content should not be so difficult that you have to assemble a team of good players to get it done. Doing turns 1 and 2 we had to coordinate our free time and get it done once a week. It would be nice to have endgame progression anytime I can log on without the scheduling and player hunting....

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Originally Posted by SinisterJoint

its not hard or challenging imo, its pretty fun and engaging. Get a FC or something and stop trying to force pugs to work when your talking about coils.

The problem with DF titan is people try and are severely under geared for it. That is why it should have a gear check at least

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Average Item Level will be implemented in 2.1, so starting mid november you'll get your wish.

Hardcore content that is designed to be difficult for even the best players probably should require good teamwork which is, surprise surprise, something that also takes practice and skill.

Also keep in mind that we are currently undergeared for Coil as we are missing the level 80 gear that would bridge the gap between DL and Coil/Relic armor.

Titan is mostly a gear, mindset, and lag issue really, and hopefully the latter will be eliminated with the coming server upgrades while the former will be fixed when gear requirements are added.

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Originally Posted by Wiggles

Typical reply "Get better".

My skill is fine, my point is getting 8 competent people together to play decently is problematic. You actually have to schedule time to run things with people. I feel content should be attainable at anytime and should not be so difficult that you have to have all very good players to do it.

If you think your right and the content is not that hard, please duty finder Titan and let me know who that works out.

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Thank god you never played XI then. Also, if you're finding this stuff "too hard" you obviously do need to work on your skills, since Turn 1 and 2 are easy mode. The majority of the issues that arise in Turn 1 is when the tanks suck and/or the people spawning/kiting the adds don't understand what to do. Everything else is business as usual. Don't stand in the bad and spam your rotation/heal.

If you want content that can be done via duty finder I hear WoW is still up and running.

Wiggles you make a good point. I agree that the fights might have too many mechanics in them and that they are too punishing if even a few people make mistakes. If I think back to WOW hardmodes, encounters would usually employ a few mechanics, with only end bosses in a dungeon going for multiple mechanics to learn.

If we look at FF14, Titan himself has how many moves? 5 moves, on top of a heart phase? And if you miss any one of the 5 mechanics, it becomes very rapidly hard to recover from unless the rest of the team over gears the content.

From my perspective, I see it as poor design. Getting 1 shot by multiple mechanics does nothing for gameplay value, it just adds annoyances to the players partaking in the encounter. Also it encourages players to become annoyed with others who can't dodge mechanics, and further encourages a split between "elite" players and "non-elite/casual/mechanically poor" players. I don't think its healthy for a game to have players genuinely become frustrated with playing with other members in the player base. It hurts the social aspect of the game.

However, on the flip side of the argument, if these encounters were made even easier than they already are, what else would there be left for players to do? Hundreds if not thousands of players on my server have already cleared Titan, whether that be through their own skill or by being carried by others, I feel that the majority of the playerbase has already entered into the final stages of end game content in the current game. SE probably developed the encounters this way though to increase the lifespan of their game which already is stretched thin in terms of end game content. So in that regard, I can see why encounters are the way they are. Still don't like it though.

Only time can tell if SE will be able to improve the environment and content of their game. With their current design decisions however, they are going to have to churn out a lot of content to keep up with how fast players are consuming it. I have a bad feeling they will continue to employ encounters with 5+ mechanics, aggravating instant death mechanics, and the over use of red zone dodge mechanics which will only serve to frustrate players.

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Originally Posted by Wiggles

Its time consuming and frustrating to get that level of cooperation with 8 players, even if your all in chat/FC. Its not even challenging, simply learning the fight perfectly. No skill just memory. Tons of trial and error.

The Snake boss of Coil turn 1 for instance has some complex mechanics. The floors, splitting, minion eating, making sure the minions are low HP, its a lot for 8 people to all get correct to pull off. It just comes off as unfun and annoying.

I feel the point of MMO's is a slight challenge with en emphasis of working together and grinding towards a goal, not a teamwork/skill check. I feel the difficulty should never exceed Ifrit HM or Amdapor Keep. That way you could skip the wasted time forming a group and attempting content over and over and just Duty finder it and get right to the fun/grind.

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lol you wouldnt pass Valkrum Dunes

Wait, you're complaining that endgame content that is supposed to be challenging, is challenging? This is new.

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Originally Posted by Wiggles

I feel the point of MMO's is a slight challenge with en emphasis of working together and grinding towards a goal, not a teamwork/skill check.

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You, sir, make no sense.

The content you mentioned, Coil, is the only thing in this game (well, maybe excluding Titan) that actually requires a team that works well together. This is the content meant for teams who want to work as a team. It's not a single player game, it's supposed to have some team work.

And really, "I'm perfect, it's jus so difficult finding people who are as good as me"? Funny how that line is used in every single thread where people explain how they can't beat anything.

"We choose to do these things not because they are hard and require teamwork, but because they are a slight challenge."
--John F. Kennedy

Okay the thing bothering me about the OP is that he says getting 8 people together to do something is a pain, well sadly to say it, in WoW you have to get 10 and -> 25 <- people together, 8 is not a problem at all.

Teamwork and coordination is required in an MMO? omg no way.

The topic name looks like a sarcasm to me.

And try to chill out a bit OP, it will make the game a better experience for u.

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Originally Posted by Wiggles

Typical reply "Get better".

My skill is fine, my point is getting 8 competent people together to play decently is problematic. You actually have to schedule time to run things with people. I feel content should be attainable at anytime and should not be so difficult that you have to have all very good players to do it.

If you think your right and the content is not that hard, please duty finder Titan and let me know who that works out.

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If you think getting 8 people together is hard you would hate being a raid leader in any real raiding environment. Oh boy.

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Originally Posted by Bluetaro

Wiggles you make a good point. I agree that the fights might have too many mechanics in them and that they are too punishing if even a few people make mistakes. If I think back to WOW hardmodes, encounters would usually employ a few mechanics, with only end bosses in a dungeon going for multiple mechanics to learn.

If we look at FF14, Titan himself has how many moves? 5 moves, on top of a heart phase? And if you miss any one of the 5 mechanics, it becomes very rapidly hard to recover from unless the rest of the team over gears the content.

From my perspective, I see it as poor design. Getting 1 shot by multiple mechanics does nothing for gameplay value, it just adds annoyances to the players partaking in the encounter. Also it encourages players to become annoyed with others who can't dodge mechanics, and further encourages a split between "elite" players and "non-elite/casual/mechanically poor" players. I don't think its healthy for a game to have players genuinely become frustrated with playing with other members in the player base. It hurts the social aspect of the game.

However, on the flip side of the argument, if these encounters were made even easier than they already are, what else would there be left for players to do? Hundreds if not thousands of players on my server have already cleared Titan, whether that be through their own skill or by being carried by others, I feel that the majority of the playerbase has already entered into the final stages of end game content in the current game. SE probably developed the encounters this way though to increase the lifespan of their game which already is stretched thin in terms of end game content. So in that regard, I can see why encounters are the way they are. Still don't like it though.

Only time can tell if SE will be able to improve the environment and content of their game. With their current design decisions however, they are going to have to churn out a lot of content to keep up with how fast players are consuming it. I have a bad feeling they will continue to employ encounters with 5+ mechanics, aggravating instant death mechanics, and the over use of red zone dodge mechanics which will only serve to frustrate players.

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Wait a minute....what do you want? 2-3 easy to avoid mechanics that make things totally faceroll? Lets recap for a second and look at WoW Hmode dungeons...are gearing...and similar difficulty to AK, now lets compare a Heroic Raid encounter....to Coil.... wait a minute...both have lots of complicated mechanics that usually end in death if you make a mistake, a really good example of this is Ultraxion's "Hour of Twilight" and "Fading Light" mechanics, they instakilled, you died, no preventing it, no invul cds, no second chances, just death. So no, do not compare Hmode DUNGEONS on WoW for gearing that it's assumed everyone will farm, to even HM Titan who is an "introduction to raiding style mechanics".

PS: Titan is actually really easy mechanic wise... ZZzzzzzz

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

Teamwork and coordination is required in an MMO? omg no way.

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Team work = raid leader calling mechanics at voice chat.

Coordination = everyone mimicking what they memorized at a Youtube video.

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Originally Posted by Wiggles

Typical reply "Get better".

My skill is fine, my point is getting 8 competent people together to play decently is problematic. You actually have to schedule time to run things with people.

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Sadly this is how the current End Game is designed. If you don't like it, there are plenty of other threads which voice this issue. Perhaps you should express your thoughts there instead of in a new thread?

OP

Just "memory", "trial and error"

You just defined what skill is right there. You obviously don't have it, if you need this game to be dumbed down further.

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Originally Posted by Wiggles

Typical reply "Get better".

My skill is fine, my point is getting 8 competent people together to play decently is problematic. You actually have to schedule time to run things with people. I feel content should be attainable at anytime and should not be so difficult that you have to have all very good players to do it.

If you think your right and the content is not that hard, please duty finder Titan and let me know who that works out.

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Thank the devs for allowing everyone to burn to endgame without developing skills/truly learning their jobs. Also, not impossible to DF titan, already done it for my 3rd relic.

I vehemently disagree.

This is not a single player game, it's an MMO. Content that requires players to work together is a given. If you don't like the prospect of having to work together in a cooperative multiplayer game, then MMOs are not the genre for you. Sorry.

He makes a valid point. Duty finder is pretty useless if the Mechanics of the fight are just to difficult compared to the parties experience and limited interactivity (not having voice chat, only typing, etc.) Not all bosses need to be scaled down, but the main thing is the instant K.O's that if one key person dies, no matter how far you've gotten, its a wipe. I think adjusting the damage done and possibly extending some of the already laggy AOE's there are might make it more fluent.

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Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Team work = raid leader calling mechanics at voice chat.

Coordination = everyone mimicking what they memorized at a Youtube video.

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It's ok to just say "I've never successfully raided before" you know.

don't use duty finder

get people who aren't brain dead

check strategies

practice

???

profit

In all seriousness, this is the issue, and forgive me for being overtly elitist about it but it's the simple truth:

High end bleeding edge 8-man raiding has to have higher execution demands than much of the playerbase can handle. Bosses have to be too hard to carry mediocre players on. To tune any lower is to alienate and bore the good players who play primarily for that challenge. This does temporarily exclude a large number of players, but that's being addressed by nerfing the content once it's no longer "bleeding edge". The real problem right now is that there wasn't enough content at launch because of important features being pushed back to 2.1, so the average players are bored with the content that's there for them right now and want to do Coil, but Coil isn't meant for them until later.

Unfortunately, the only way to lower execution demands without making the content a joke is to increase the group size significantly (which is what they're doing with Crystal Tower). In early WoW, for example, raids were 40-man but the execution demands on individual players tended to be lower to accommodate the difficulty and improbability of having top tier players in all 40 slots. Tons of people got "carried" in WoW without it ruining the content because it stayed exclusive and relevant due to the coordination challenge. Those are the two extremes, largescale content that's hard to coordinate but easy for good players to execute, or smallscale content that's easy to coordinate but hard for good players to execute. The combinations of large scale+hard execution and small scale+easy execution are not viable models for an MMO.

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Originally Posted by Tenkiei

Coil turn 1/2? I'm sorry what did you expect WoW-esque LFR where 6 out of 25 people could be afk, another 6 dead, another 6 incompetent and still clear everything flawlessly in an hour?

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We found the best strategy was just to have all 18 die so that healers didn't waste mana on them.

Kidding. I quit before LFR, but I heard it was bad.

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Originally Posted by Wiggles

Im a gamer who loves a challenge. I dont scoff at hard difficulty in games, but in an MMO such as FFXIV difficult dungeons/bosses present a unique problem.

Eight people doing something correctly together, coordinating together is very time consuming, and just feels frustrating. If one key role dies such as a healer or tank, the fight goes sour. If someone misses a AOE dodge or does not know the fight it becomes a problem. This is the primary concern of the Duty finder in endgame.

Ive done the whole teamwork thing. Im in a FC, ran COIL turn 1 and 2 using mumble/teamspeak, use linkshells for good groups, etc but it just comes off as frustrating. Spending up to an hour trying to get people on to do the content, andthen the content you attempt is just riddled with tons of mechanics to all be familiar with. All 8 players mind you to perform perfectly.

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I know the staff at Fry's can barely tie their shoes, but they should have told you the single player games were one isle over.


I direct your attention to the FF that feels the most like an online game without actually being one:
http://squarehaven.com/games/ps2/ffx...x/ffxii-jp.jpg

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Eight people doing something correctly together, coordinating together is very time consuming, and just feels frustrating. If one key role dies such as a healer or tank, the fight goes sour. If someone misses a AOE dodge or does not know the fight it becomes a problem. This is the primary concern of the Duty finder in endgame.

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Well, we'll just say if you cant handle coordnation with 8 people, you wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes in WoWs 20 and 40 man raids, or how about 64 man Dynamis runs when it came out in FFXI?

battles like those in coil that require strong coordnation are fun. I don't mind wiping 20 times as long as it isn't because people are being dumb. It's challenging, and challenge is a good thing. There's no such thing as too challenging unless it's impossible.

This has to be a troll post

The content was designed to kick your butt and require 8 good players to complete. Working as intended. The whole rest of the game leading up to endgame is easily attainable at any time without having all decent players, leave the part of the game with an actual challenge for those who enjoy it, it's all they get.

When a game gets tough, it shouldn't be made easier. You're a human, you're a part of a species with intelligence enough to adapt to a situation and then overcome it. When a shepherd had to deal with wolves attacking his flock, he had to observe the problem, come up with a solution, and overcome it. He couldn't just ask the wolves to be easier to catch. That's a real life, life and death kind of situation. That kind of intellect should have no problem with a simple video game.

I'm currently only in an 'end game' guild in TOR, so I can't say anything from first hand experience in ARR (yet), but you know how we clear content?

we SCHEDULE it. we have sign-ups for people and if we have more people signed up than we can actually take we 'roll' who gets to go (we also sometimes ask people to sign-up for a specific role in advance, which will probably be needed in ARR too since many people (will)have more than one job at 50)

granted that means we don't 'clear' everything every night, but that's not something you should expect in ARR, either (though I guess possible. I don't know how exactly the logout timers work)

I just got out of a thread that said end game was too easy... >< wth

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Originally Posted by Raikki

"We choose to do these things not because they are hard and require teamwork, but because they are a slight challenge."
--John F. Kennedy

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"Ask not what your party can do for you. Ask what you can do for your party."

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Originally Posted by Illya

"Ask not what your party can do for you. Ask what you can do for your party."

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http://i.imgur.com/VFjEKlf.jpg