How Vengeance and Steel Cyclone could be a way to balance WAR

Sorry for posting yet another "WAR fix" thread but I wanted some attention.
I'd really want to keep the offensive tank concept and have our DPS being the key to our reactive mitigation.
How I'd fix WAR:
1 - Move the selfheal from Storm Path to BB. We absolutely need to have a constant selfheal rotation to close the gap with PLD CD.

2 - Make Steel Cyclone add shield equal to 300% of damage. Basically giving us tools to mitigate before burst (Steel Cyclone) and after burst (IB).

3 - Make Vengeance a skill that keeps track of incoming damage and applies a scaling dps factor to Steel Cyclone and IB while vengeance is active, thus scaling our Shield/Heal. Scaling factor should be a +% of dmg received/maxHP. The scaling factor and damage tracker is either reset after use of SC/IB (might be too powerful) or simply deactivates vengeance.

4 - Make Unchained be affect by Vengeance with the same dps scaling factor concept so that Bloodbath heals more.

These are just concepts that I think would make WAR more viable and interesting to play.
The key things I'm trying to address:
- we have 3 moves that costs all our wrath (which is a high price) so let's have real benefit from all of them.
- Vengeance should be about taking hits in order to hit back harder and improve the efficiency of our wrath draining moves.
- we need one tool to mitigate upfront. Steel Cyclone can be that tool and would work similar to IB but as a shield
- Scale shield/heal based on damage taken

Now you'd need to carefully define the cooldown and the scaling factor so it's not OP but overall, I find these changes would make WAR really interesting.

Warriors are fine, L2P, stop Q.Q'ing about everything -.- Paladins ain't got any self heal, and there are several encounters where warriors probably will be better than pld, yet people whine when raid content even out yet.. And well a lvl 36 not even at end game content saying they aint even working, also during lvl 30-39 where warriors DEFINITELY are above paladins? That's just too much.

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Originally Posted by Shizzaren

Warriors are fine, L2P, stop Q.Q'ing about everything -.- Paladins ain't got any self heal, and there are several encounters where warriors probably will be better than pld, yet people whine when raid content even out yet.. And well a lvl 36 not even at end game content saying they aint even working, also during lvl 30-39 where warriors DEFINITELY are above paladins? That's just too much.

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Oh messiah, we're so sorry we've all been incredibly wrong! Clearly we need to redesign math in your courageous upstanding image! Plz teach me how to smack down noobs like you with your flash of righteousness!

I SEE THE LIGHT AND IT IS BLINDING!

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Originally Posted by Shizzaren

And well a lvl 36 not even at end game content saying they aint even working, also during lvl 30-39 where warriors DEFINITELY are above paladins? That's just too much.

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Anything not level 50 is irrelevant. Your post is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

Anything not level 50 is irrelevant. Your post is irrelevant.

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Say what? I said that a guy that was lvl 36 complaining about end game already, during the time warriors are OP as fuck just proves that he doesn't know how to play... And RapBreon, Yoshi-P is fine with warriors, he just say they require a bit more skills, but truth is they just have 2 more buttons to mash on. Find the correct order to mash your buttons, and you will see that warriors ain't as weak as you think. Quite the opposite in fact.

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Originally Posted by Shizzaren

Say what? I said that a guy that was lvl 36 complaining about end game already, during the time warriors are OP as fuck just proves that he doesn't know how to play... And RapBreon, Yoshi-P is fine with warriors, he just say they require a bit more skills, but truth is they just have 2 more buttons to mash on. Find the correct order to mash your buttons, and you will see that warriors ain't as weak as you think. Quite the opposite in fact.

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I'm actually at Twins cute little man, as a Warrior.

Its funny how warriors probably spends more time whining how broken their class is instead of learning their class :)

isnt that the level range for cutter's cry? and then stone vigil?

i had a much easier time on pld in cutter's cry vs the bosses because of massive windows to apply stoneskin.

in stone vigil, the aevis were hitting me really hard, and there were times we HAD to pull 3 arvis at the same time.

war is certainly fun to play, but tobsay itzs super op in those lvk range is kinda pushing it too far.

if u had stoneskin u also had conjurer lvl 34, i only have mine in 15, and most people during lvl 30-39 pally dont have a conjurer lvl 34. And yes warrs are super op during that part because they got their defiance whilst pally doesn't get shield's oath before lvl 40 (got mine in 50 because hey im one of them fate farmers)

Warriors are fine. The difference only becomes noticeable once you reach Coil. Even then, you can use a WAR for anything in there, it's just easier on a PLD.

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Originally Posted by Shizzaren

Its funny how warriors probably spends more time whining how broken their class is instead of learning their class :)

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its also funny how PLD stuck on garuda shit talks complaining warriors more than they play the game

WAR is fun to play, but it does not take a rocket scientist to see that it is lacking and the class has no niche. Unless you want to call being able to spam 200 damage on targets a niche, which isn't really, unless Aurum Vale is a part of Binding Coil of Bahamut.

Regardless of of that, I am sure there would be less complaining if the community was not opposed to using Warrior tanks. That alone makes the problem bigger than "im a warrior and im bad so im gonna complain on the forums until war get buffed".

MMOs are about playing the game with other people. If most of the community tells you your job isn't good enough to perform the role in their group, it really doesn't matter what anyone has to say in disagreement with the notion because they are wrong.

Stuck on garuda shit? I got 50 recently, because some of us does not have enough time to sit 24/7 with one game. And complaining about warrs complaining instead of playing? I am at work, I can't play here, please. And all the warr people have silly fixes like : "just give us 20% dmg reduction like paladin got on a 3 min cd" guess what? if u want that, u'd have to trade all of your heals and be just like paladins. Then again, I'm not saying they could use a tiny buff, but all these "fixes" are not tiny buffs, more like gamechanging buffs...

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Originally Posted by Shizzaren

Stuck on garuda shit? I got 50 recently, because some of us does not have enough time to sit 24/7 with one game. And complaining about warrs complaining instead of playing? I am at work, I can't play here, please. And all the warr people have silly fixes like : "just give us 20% dmg reduction like paladin got on a 3 min cd" guess what? if u want that, u'd have to trade all of your heals and be just like paladins. Then again, I'm not saying they could use a tiny buff, but all these "fixes" are not tiny buffs, more like gamechanging buffs...

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The point is, you're not at Coil. You haven't experienced it as a WAR nor a PLD. There are many people here who have, like myself. On both PLD and WAR. Until you have experience, you have less room to talk than the lvl 36.

kidding me jeckyl? that is the worst argument I've ever heard. Obviously I have more experience than the lvl 36, and also even the developers say that warriors are fine.. And they test it/have people continually test them all the time... Someone needs to learn how to play!

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Originally Posted by Shizzaren

And all the warr people have silly fixes like : "just give us 20% dmg reduction like paladin got on a 3 min cd" guess what? if u want that, u\\'d have to trade all of your heals and be just like paladins. Then again, I\\'m not saying they could use a tiny buff, but all these "fixes" are not tiny buffs, more like gamechanging buffs...

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I don\\'t think I\\'ve ever seen warriors ask for shield oath... and it all comes down to EHP which paladins have far more of. Shield oath > defiance no matter how you swing it. And why would "warriors better from 30-39" be something you think would help your point? Nothing matters before 50 because you\\'ll out level it in a matter of days. Take both warrior and paladin to end game and then maybe you\\'ll have an inkling of an idea of what you\\'re talking about.

Wow? Don't you have the ability to read? I was clearly referring to OP which is lvl 36 and complaining about warrs, and they shine from 30-39. That a guy complains at the level which they beat paladins by far, proves that the lvl 50 probably are complaining unnecessarily too. Please read the whole context and don't just jump to conclusions. Stop QQ on forums about warrs being bad when they are perfectly viable.

I'm not a 50 warrior but I do tank as warrior in dungeons and such. And From what I can tell. As a warrior who is 46, when I read the logs and make sure I time certain things right. I can mitigate a lot of damage. And then do the self heal. I cannot wait to be 50 because I shall search for Titan as my warrior, and when people boot me out and such, i'll keep trying until I can tank him. And I think I'll do a decent job, prolly never as good as pld, but A decent job none-the-less

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Originally Posted by Shizzaren

36 not even at end game content saying they aint even working, also during lvl 30-39 where warriors DEFINITELY are above paladins? That's just too much.

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We'll that's actually a bug of the forum. I'm lvl 50 (trying to get passed Titan HM) but did a lvl synced dungeon and this is what go snapshot.
I'm not really thinking WAR is "broken" (just harder) but scaled vs static mitigation is imbalanced per definition after hitting a dmg threshold. It wouldn't be a big issue if the game provided class specific gear that addresses the difference between WAR and PLD. I can't talk about AF+1 but having the same DL gear for both tank class is really silly. Why don't DRG and MNK share the same DL gear since they're both Melee DPS...
But what bugs me is how useless our Wrath draining skills are... Aside from IB which really only shine on crit, Unchained and SC don't give much return on investment...

It's updated now (ur lvl on forums). And as I said I believe warrs just needs a tiny boost somehow, but not something major like almost all suggestions on this forum are.

Tanking in Coil as a WAR is like shooting yourself in the foot and trying to run a mile, can you do it? Probably but it will hurt and take exponentially longer. Dunno if Lodestone still has me in the HQ crafted MNK stuff I made, but I have a few ilevel 90 tank pieces, 6k HP as PLD, and 7600ish as WAR (in group). I don't think that WARs need a buff, but that PLDs need to be nerfed. We are missing an entire gear level (ilevel 80 from CT) and PLDs can waltz into coil and take down the first 4 turns with relative ease

Shizzaren, have you even bothered to level marauder? Because you appear to be talking out your ass about how they work. Not sure what the deal is with this small percentage of paladins who feel the need to try and convince everyone that warrior mechanics are working properly.

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Originally Posted by Shizzaren

Wow? Don't you have the ability to read? I was clearly referring to OP which is lvl 36 and complaining about warrs, and they shine from 30-39. That a guy complains at the level which they beat paladins by far, proves that the lvl 50 probably are complaining unnecessarily too. Please read the whole context and don't just jump to conclusions. Stop QQ on forums about warrs being bad when they are perfectly viable.

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Holy shit that is the worst extension of logic imaginable.

wow..

Defensively: PLD > WARR. Makes sense, I mean you are using a friggin two hander and dish out more damage
Offensively: Warr > PLD. The way it should be, paladin cant outdamage a warrior of equal ilvl.
Utility: PLD > WARR atm, but this will change between patches probably.


Basically u can say that warrs are much better for farming, and if u want warriors to be at the same lvl as pld defensively ur on pot... Then everyone and their mom would play warriors as they would do more damage, and be equal defensively. So much unneeded Q.Q from warriors nowadays!

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Originally Posted by Shizzaren

wow..

Defensively: PLD > WARR. Makes sense, I mean you are using a friggin two hander and dish out more damage
Offensively: Warr > PLD. The way it should be, paladin cant outdamage a warrior of equal ilvl.
Utility: PLD > WARR atm, but this will change between patches probably.


Basically u can say that warrs are much better for farming, and if u want warriors to be at the same lvl as pld defensively ur on pot... Then everyone and their mom would play warriors as they would do more damage, and be equal defensively. So much unneeded Q.Q from warriors nowadays!

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They're both tanks, your primary job is to hold the enemy attention and not die. DPS is a secondary consideration.

And why would anybody want to be good at farming if they're second rate for new content? If PLD are better at clearing fresh content, then it stands to reason they get the better gear first and will be better at farming as a result.

Not to mention, PLD damage is pretty close to WAR damage if you play it correctly and gear it the same way as a WAR. And at 1/4 of the effort to play it too!

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Not to mention, PLD damage is pretty close to WAR damage if you play it correctly and gear it the same way as a WAR. And at 1/4 of the effort to play it too!

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I mostly agree with what you're saying, but I really wish people would stop spreading this untruth.

WAR DPS is about 25-30% more than a PLD. The reason people say that it is negligible, is because in 8 man groups, it is only about 5-7% more damage from the entire group. In 4 man groups its more like 10-15% more total output, and while solo its closer to 25-30%. The damage difference is quite large on an individual basis, but only increases your raid's damage by a small amount.

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Originally Posted by Shizzaren

kidding me jeckyl? that is the worst argument I've ever heard. Obviously I have more experience than the lvl 36, and also even the developers say that warriors are fine.. And they test it/have people continually test them all the time... Someone needs to learn how to play!

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Yes, I need to learn how to play. I've tanked up to Turn 5 in PLD AND WAR, and I'm not stuck on Garuda as you seem to be.

Let me let you in on something about SE developers. This is something you saw in FFXI heavily. The community claim that most of the classes are actually broken and crap and needs buffs. SE refuses and says they are fine, for about 6 months. Thus, for the next 6 months, these classes stay shit and broken and not wanted by the community, until 6 months later SE comes out and claims that they need a buff.

This is experience not just fron the classes but from the company themself.

But hey. A PLD who hasn't even leveled WAR nor even eneter Coil is trying to tell me I don't know how to play. Must be the reason.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

I mostly agree with what you're saying, but I really wish people would stop spreading this untruth.

WAR DPS is about 25-30% more than a PLD. The reason people say that it is negligible, is because in 8 man groups, it is only about 5-7% more damage from the entire group. In 4 man groups its more like 10-15% more total output, and while solo its closer to 25-30%. The damage difference is quite large on an individual basis, but only increases your raid's damage by a small amount.

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what do you base this on? most calculations I've seen show PLD damage output within 10% of a WAR. Where the PLD lacks in their base combo dmg and lack of maim or storm's eye, they make up with Circle of Scorn and Spirit's Within being off the GCD.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

what do you base this on? most calculations I've seen show PLD damage output within 10% of a WAR. Where the PLD lacks in their base combo dmg and lack of maim or storm's eye, they make up with Circle of Scorn and Spirit's Within being off the GCD.

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Most damage comparisons I've seen are comparing non-tanking PLDs with non-tanking WARs. PLD has an offensive stance, where Warrior doesn't have a stance to boost it's damage and can either remove the damage penalty on Defiance and lose access to some damage skills, or can keep the damage skills and keep the damage penalty. In addition, most comparisons show the PLD using Spirits Within (a silence) in their rotation, but not allowing the WAR to use Brutal Swing because its a stun. They also allow the PLD to benefit from Storm's Eye (effectively an 11% increase in damage).

Turns out, when you stack everything in favour of PLD damage, they still don't do as much as a WAR... but they do come close.

They should make Holmgang more useful. Lower the CD to 90s and give it a 15% slashing resistance debuff. That 30% slashing resistance combined with SE could give us that extra dps to make self-heals more efficient. Or maybe add some sort of mitigation buff to it since you know..we only have one.

Imagine that, a PLD acting as if WAR is fine.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

Most damage comparisons I've seen are comparing non-tanking PLDs with non-tanking WARs. PLD has an offensive stance, where Warrior doesn't have a stance to boost it's damage and can either remove the damage penalty on Defiance and lose access to some damage skills, or can keep the damage skills and keep the damage penalty. In addition, most comparisons show the PLD using Spirits Within (a silence) in their rotation, but not allowing the WAR to use Brutal Swing because its a stun. They also allow the PLD to benefit from Storm's Eye (effectively an 11% increase in damage).

Turns out, when you stack everything in favour of PLD damage, they still don't do as much as a WAR... but they do come close.

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I've seen both, in and out of tank stance, with and without storm's eye for the PLD. Kitru has done many permutations on this. None of it comes out to a 25%+ DPS advantage for the WAR. Where are you seeing that?

Trolled gently...

Copying from http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...pilation/page2 since it seems people are looking more at this topic, look for more ideas about war.

Steel Cyclone: this used to be like our bread and butter back in the day, now its pointless use of wrath, to make it more useful/engaging
change it to the following options:

2 wrath stack: 150-200 aoe dmg like it is right now with an enmity modifier (our version of flash so to speak)
3 wrath stack: 200 aoe dmg with +5% crit or dmg bonus for a duration
4 wrath stack: 250 aoe dmg with a 50%? heal according to dmg
5 wrath stack: 250-300 aoe dmg & -20% dmg taken for a duration

Just a random idea and it may take some tweaks and/or reverse the orders or w/e but at least this way theres more options according to situation and steel cyclone is useful.