Anyone else feel Provoke should be changed?

Ever been in a exp group/behest and feel like... the tanks not doing anything and letting the mobs just run around hitting/killing everyone in the group?

I think, wardrume/warmonger and especially taunt/provoke should have a stamina cost reduction (or maybe even 0).

Thinking besides tanks wanting to watch you all die horribly, don't use provoke/taunt is because it uses like 50% the stamina bar almost, when you just want to tank 1-2 mobs without aoe aggroing everything else in the area.

You see most tanks just taunt at the start and thats about it, just once per monster... no stamina really to do it later, if it comes off them, they just tend to let the monster run around and kill people.

Its almost the same for NM's because they are using all their stamina to survive and pretty much hoping between you hitting for 15-30 and them spamming abilities it never comes off them.

Well, I think that if the tank is just letting the mob run around and kill people, the problem is that they're just not doing a very good job...

The fact of the matter is it's far far easier as a gladiator for me to spam buffs to get agro than it is to use provoke/taunt. if I line up 5 or 6 low cooldown buffs (30 seconds or so) and just cycle through them, I can easily keep every monster on me with no real effort on my part. I can't believe that's working as intended.

You must have a bad tank because when I play as a Gladiator I never have this problem. Provoke is not the only skills to keep hate on monster. Can't just rely on provoke itself.

There are some good and some bad... but have you seen how like almost every 10+ man behest mobs just run rampant?

Tanks should be relying on "tanking" abilities to pull threat not featherfoot/foresight/raging strike/ferocity/something not gladiator to get and hold threat. Tanks should be able to get and hold threat using their own class tanking abilities. Shouldn't rely so heavily on other classes to do its job i think.

You're missing the point and getting lost in the horror story by the OP. The fact that you can work without using Provoke/Taunt doesn't mean that the skills aren't inconvenient to use. Provoke and Taunt are skills that need to be ready when you need them - not 5 seconds later.

Personally, I'd like the costs removed or drastically lowered too.

Agree with Stamina Reduction on Provoke. But I would extend it to many of the other abilities that use stamina as well.

Ex. Murderous Intent increases Crit Att for 30 seconds but takes up about 50% of stamina that could be used to hit 2x Skull Sunders. I dont have the numbers on me but Ive been playing Marauder since Beta and Im positive 2x Skull Sunder is going to be more damage than the extra dmg gained from the Crit hits that proc from Murderous Intent.

The Whole Stamina System Needs to be Reworked. The System itself is decent enough, but it is very far from refined.

What's funny is that when they decided officially to go away from an auto-attack system, they decided to make stamina cost for most abilities twice as much as a regular attack (although to be fair, in closed beta the stamina cost for regular attacks were more, and the reason they aren't now is because people complained about how slow combat was).

Aside from the stamina cost (which obviously needs to be lowered), they should make them frontal-AoE. I mean, they designed this game so that half of the attacks/spells are all AoE, so why aren't the provokes and taunts AoE?

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Originally Posted by Gulkeeva

Ever been in a exp group/behest and feel like... the tanks not doing anything and letting the mobs just run around hitting/killing everyone in the group?

I think, wardrume/warmonger and especially taunt/provoke should have a stamina cost reduction (or maybe even 0).

Thinking besides tanks wanting to watch you all die horribly, don't use provoke/taunt is because it uses like 50% the stamina bar almost, when you just want to tank 1-2 mobs without aoe aggroing everything else in the area.

You see most tanks just taunt at the start and thats about it, just once per monster... no stamina really to do it later, if it comes off them, they just tend to let the monster run around and kill people.

Its almost the same for NM's because they are using all their stamina to survive and pretty much hoping between you hitting for 15-30 and them spamming abilities it never comes off them.

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I would like to see Provoke and other abilities like that be Party AOE abilities, not just single mob abilities. I think the issue can be so hard to target the correct mob etc, it makes it harder to voke of hate from your party, along with mage spam heals and other attacks, hate management really isn't even needed so much.

Your correct lock, the major issue with combat its self is stamina.

On paper it kind of looks like a simi cool idea but the only reason for it to exist is as a governor for how many actions/attacks we can do over a period of time. Here is the thing though its extraneous for the most part. you cant constantly do moves that require tp as tp is finite. you cant get crazy with casting spells for two reasons, while in combat mp is finite also there is another limiter in that if you do it to much the target comes over and smacks you. cant spam abilities there already on a timer.

I know that as a mrd i need to taunt and voke to keep hate locked for a bit. problem with that is well that leaves me with enough stamina to wack the mob about three times before im standing there like a putz waiting around to get enough back to do any thing. and all the while the other party members are pulling on the emnity strings. if some one yanks hate at that time there is absolutely nothing i can do and it sucks.

Try just tanking instead of trying to dps. You would have plenty of stamina if you weren't swinging so much I bet. None of our tanks have an issue with it.,.

Provoke could do with a stamina reduction.

The way it works is confusing seeing as it seems to just put a debuff on the monsters that gives you hate as long as it's on it. If you aren't able to do a Phalanx or something within that time to build hate it's just going to go back to who it was on before.

Hate in this game just need more balancing. It seems everything anyone else does pulls massive hate while moves like Heavy Stab/Slash and Riot Blade which say on them generates enmity don't seem to do too much.

Oh, and provoke/taunt don't generate threat, they put you on top of threat, so don't pull with voke.

What do you mean on "top of threat" Doc?

I do notice they don't generate hate alone.

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Originally Posted by Smashington

What do you mean on "top of threat" Doc?

I do notice they don't generate hate alone.

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It seems to just put a debuff on the monsters that gives you hate as long as it's on it. If you aren't able to do a Phalanx or something within that time to build hate it's just going to go back to who it was on before.

I think the biggest problem that no one has mentioned (I think?) is that the enmity values for the abilities are way messed up. Provoke/Taunt SHOULD be some of the first go-to abilities to get hate, but they aren't as effective as they should be. If the potency of these were increased and effects of using them lasted longer, I'd be fine with the current stamina/cooldown they have. I remember when I first started playing GLAD and the general rule of thumb was that provoke was useless and to use it if you had the stamina for it, but it wasn't very much worth it at the end of the day. Like Gulkeeva said, we shouldn't have to use other class's abilities (at least not majority of them) over our own to do what OUR class is designed to do. But then again, the classes themselves are designed kind of backwards as it is.

One thing that made tanking easier in FF11 was the ability to automatically target the enemy that was attacking your ally, though that's a little harder to do when most encounters involve more than one mob.

The intent here is so that you either dps OR tank, not both. Hence the large stam cost on tanking skills. Allowing "tanking" for free breaks the class and all tanking classes for the future.

What I meant was that you should have archers pulling to generate a hypohetical 10 threat and then have the tank voke, this puts them at 13 threat for 10 seconds is how we understand it to work.

The large stamina cost for what is basically a 2-3 second debuff is off kilter. I agree that stamina cost should either be lowered, or the duration of the threat increased to allow you to generate hate.

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Originally Posted by Koffee

The large stamina cost for what is basically a 2-3 second debuff is off kilter. I agree that stamina cost should either be lowered, or the duration of the threat increased to allow you to generate hate.

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Basically provoke doesn't help you mid-fight unless the mob is going for someone else or you know when it use it (when everyone else is about to do a battle regiment). Making the only way to generate real enmity being Phalanx and hitting the mob. Other abilities like Warmonger/War Drum don't seem too effective during a long NM fight also.

I'm sure it will be more balanced latter on. The only real problem is it's hard to grab a load of enmity right off the bat in a fight. Right now, you basically have to tell everyone "hold on a second or two while I build hate".

While I do agree that a couple changes are needed to the tanking aspects of the game, I also think the way it is now is good enough to keep enmity on something (If done correctly). I do agree the stamina bar consumption from some skills on Gladiator do take too much. The best advice I can give is simply tank the monster you are fighting to maximize enmity and damage mitagation, and do not worry about your damage at all. I know in FFXI Paladins and Ninjas (And warriors as well) could damage deal to gain more enmity, but in FFXIV you have to worry about enmity boosting tactics and skills and not damage.

It will take some time to adjust the two different play styles, but you will get used of it.

~Tak

If a tank knows how to do his job, the current provoke/taunt skills work great.

I think the problem is that there are many people around that simply don't know how to tank, and have no interest in learning. Begging for easy-mode is much easier, isn't it? :D

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Originally Posted by Abriael

If a tank knows how to do his job, the current provoke/taunt skills work great.

I think the problem is that there are many people around that simply don't know how to tank, and have no interest in learning. Begging for easy-mode is much easier, isn't it? :D

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Coming from someone who isn't a 50 tank?

Yeah the current system "works". I'm not asking it to be easier. It just needs a little fine tuning and research done to find the optimal skills to use. Because trying to keep hate off people spamming BRs on a NM with just Provoke II, Phalanx II and War Drum for a while fight isn't going to happen unless the DDs suck.


Enmity values just need to be changed a bit or provoke needs to give at least some lasting hate value.

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Originally Posted by Visch

Coming from someone who isn't a 50 tank?

Yeah the current system "works". I'm not asking it to be easier. It just needs a little fine tuning and research done to find the optimal skills to use. Because trying to keep hate off people spamming BRs on a NM with just Provoke II, Phalanx II and War Drum for a while fight isn't going to happen unless the DDs suck.


Enmity values just need to be changed a bit or provoke needs to give at least some lasting hate value.

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Yep, 'cause tanking changes SO much when you get to 50 (no it doesn't).

Mind getting off your high horse, mr. Level 50? Try timing your skills instead of spamming them. It works quite well.

Tanking needs to be improved in general.

The stamina is fine on these abilities. You know you dont have to constantly drain your stamina right? It would be a good idea for tanks to try and keep their stamina at 1/3-1/2 full in case of emergencies.

I think the stamina system is OK, it needs to be more responsive though. There always seems to be some sort of delay between when you press your action and when it executes. Probably more of a battle animation issue, but w/e

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Yep, 'cause tanking changes SO much when you get to 50 (no it doesn't).

Mind getting off your high horse, mr. Level 50? Try timing your skills instead of spamming them. It works quite well.

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Mind telling me how you would know ANYTHING BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T EVER DONE ANYTHING? LOL.

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Originally Posted by Visch

Enmity values just need to be changed a bit or provoke needs to give at least some lasting hate value.

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Originally Posted by Hitoriki

Tanking needs to be improved in general.

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These are the true issues. Enmity is so wonky in this game. Its good to hear that they are looking into and will hopefully be making changes.

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

These are the true issues. Enmity is so wonky in this game. Its good to hear that they are looking into and will hopefully be making changes.

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They pretty much said they were going to fix it in the big list o' stuff to fix didn't they? I mean it's just a matter of time.

From my experience tanking , there are PLENTY of tools to never loose agro on leves, nms and exp grind.

Now behest is a diferent story, it depends on your group really.I mean , the mobs die in less than 3 sec , whats the point to try and tank?I usually just toss wardrum/warmonger/barbaric yawp when ever theres no agro near .Trying to voke mobs that die before they have even landed 2 hits is a waste.

Of course im speaking of the normal many people behests, on low man behests you just tank like usual.

In regards of enm generation is fairly easy to do so with the right skills, as long as you understand what gives hate and what not.Now , just becouse it works it does not mean is good.Personally i find the hate mechanics currently in place to be poorly implemented.

Hate is easy to control, and if you're not retarded you can lvl archer and get enmity reducing abilities. OH MAI GAHHH! SOO HARD!

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Originally Posted by Gath

Hate is easy to control, and if you're not retarded you can lvl archer and get enmity reducing abilities. OH MAI GAHHH! SOO HARD!

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Of course not dude. It's all about spamming BR with your Jade Crook +3 and having every single person in the PT in BR mode except the tank so no one can cure!

Having enmity down traits would just make too much sense!

Let's wait and see how they change the combat system first. This may become a non issue.
I think Provoke and Taunt costing 10 Stamina instead of 30 (on another job) would be better though

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Originally Posted by Visch

Mind telling me how you would know ANYTHING BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T EVER DONE ANYTHING? LOL.

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You know, people talk. People see other people in action. People are in linkshells and get involved in linkshell activities even if they aren't 50.
I'm sure those concepts are absolutely alien to such an uber player (that can't even tank properly) like you, but they do exist in reality.

This not to mention that there are level 50 tanks in this very thread that share my same opinion. What dismissive excuse are you going to invent for them? :D

While enemity is a little wonky (but that's rather evidently more on the mob side than on the side of abilities, as anyone with any extensive experience in tanking would notice), it's still plenty controllable. It can be improved, but in it's basic mechanics, not in the tools, that are plenty, and as they are require TIMING and effective stamina/cooldown management (read: a little bit of skill, that's never bad), instead of just spamming endlessly with no need for planning or skill.

What are you gonna ask next to make life easier? an aggro meter that tells you exactly when to provoke? Scratch that, let's just provoke automatically. God forbid you have to press buttons!

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Originally Posted by Visch

Having enmity down traits would just make too much sense!

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See above. God forbid people have to press buttons. Let's make everything passive :D

I agree with the No Stamina idea

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Originally Posted by Abriael

You know, people talk. People see other people in action. People are in linkshells and get involved in linkshell activities even if they aren't 50.
I'm sure those concepts are absolutely alien to such an uber player (that can't even tank properly) like you, but they do exist in reality.

While enemity is a little wonky (but that's rather evidently more on the mob side than on the side of abilities, as anyone with any extensive experience in tanking would notice), it's still plenty controllable. It can be improved, but in it's basic mechanics, not in the tools, that are plenty, and as they are require TIMING (read: a little bit of skill, that's never bad), instead of just spamming endlessly with no need for planning or skill.

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Oh boy dude you are something else. I never said anything about timing or skill involved I said that provoke isn't good at helping cement hate and hate in general is a little messy but workable.

Basically the same things you are saying.

But, what I don't understand how you can even argue about experience fighting something that would kill you in 1 hit. Who cares if you can watch someone? You can watch youtube videos of people fighting an NM that doesn't mean you have a clue about what YOU'RE doing.

Most people are horrible anyway and kill NMs with 15 people when it can be done with with like 6~8.

Although Provoke could likely use a Stamina reduction (Same for Taunts and War Drum/ Warmonger) but I've never had a problem holding hate when I actually wanted to. If your GLA isn't Provoking becuase he doesn't have the Stamina, then he is doing something wrong, and should switch to Lancer for everyone's benefit, as his main concern seems to be damage.

There are many ways to keep hate, even just spam buffing yourself can keep hate on you, and the use of specific skills. Really, it is quite easy to keep hate, although, again, I wouldn't be against a Stamina reduction to Provoke/Taunt.

I have never had a problem with hate on glad before. Provoke II, taunt, and War Drum pretty much can keep 2-3 mobs attention at once on me. If an archer does a 1500dmg regiment ws or something then yea I am losing hate probably but that should be expected.

When I tank I usually do not DD much at all. This is pretty much my cycle.

Throwing to pull => provoke (taunt as well if it is more the 1 mob/wardrum if 3+)=> aegis boon II => a few swings => taunt (wardrum if it is 2 mobs) => Deflection or what every the 50 shield skill is=> a few swings => sentinel => provoke/taunt => then repeat at Aegis boon. Note that I rarely get though a cycle unless we are fighting multiple mobs at once.

I think it makes tanking sorta interesting, you have to gauge hate, timers, as well stamina.