Re-examining Ancient Magic Spells

The other day (while bored) I was looking again at the rank 44 'ancient magic' spell line. The more I look at these spells, the more fishy things get.

Not only is the MP cost a staggering 100 MP, the cast time six seconds, and an approximately 30 second delay, but the spells are CONJURER ONLY.

I looked through the previous thread, and no one seems to have mentioned this ~ none of the other classes seem to care about trying to equip ancient magic spells, so it hasn't been brought up.

So, I did a bit of experimentation to try and discover if there were something being overlooked.

** AM spells can be cast on other players as well as creatures **
The AM spell is automatically an AoE, and is centered on your target. If you cast it on another player, when the timer goes off all creatures in an AoE around that player will take damage.

However, you must (a) already be engaged before casting (b) be within range of the target player when the effect goes off.

Multiple Conjurers can stack AM onto the same player. Since the AM timer is separate for each Conjurer, each spell will go off separately (they don't 'combine').

I will be posting other results (both positive and negative) as I find them ~~ contributions are always welcome!

I've tried and tried to come up with a reasoning behind the AM design and I just can't find any. The casting on a player is as likely to be a mistake as it is some intended feature, since the other mechanics of the spells make that feature irrelevant. You can't plant a bunch of am's on a player and have them run at a mob group suicide bomber style since you have to be in range and the enemy already has to be engaged. There's not even an applicable kiting use.

I think the ability to cast on a player was just a developmental oversight, or part of an idea that never made it into the game.

AM would be worth it as designed if it did as much dot as the spell spiked at the end. That's really the only easy way i can see AM salvageable as we know it.

Ancient magic is a complete joke and a waste of time.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-Magic-Spells

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Ancient magic is a complete joke and a waste of time.

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Yes, I read that thread, and considered reviving it. However, that thread is mostly filled with simple bashing of the spells, not actual posts of "I tried this and it didn't work", etc. Please, Hamster, if you wish to bash on AM without adding anything, just go post in that thread. I mean this in a respectful way ~~ venting frustrations is a healthy thing, but I would like to keep this thread focussed on proposing and testing ideas.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

I've tried and tried to come up with a reasoning behind the AM design and I just can't find any.

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Peregrine, would it be possible for you to write up and post some of the specific things you have tried? That would let everyone else not spend time trying the same old things, and might even spark some crazy thought.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

Yes, I read that thread, and considered reviving it. However, that thread is mostly filled with simple bashing of the spells, not actual posts of "I tried this and it didn't work", etc. . . .I would like to keep this thread focussed on proposing and testing ideas.

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Did you?
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ull=1#post9632

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Hi All,

Great topic.

Totally agree that Ancient Magic (Flare, Tornado, etc.) needs to be fixed and updated. Like others (adding to this thread so the Developers can see our "votes" for changing this):

1. Currently, Conjurers' Ancient Magic (Flare, Tornado, etc.) is too weak. We do more damage, faster, with basic Spells like Fire, Fire II, etc.

2. Ancient Magic looks horrible (almost non-existent). There are almost no Special Effects on what *should* be the Conjurer's best Magic Spells in the game. Instead, you can't even see any effect happening. It's unfinished.

3. Change the casting mechanic for Ancient Magic: Having to wait 60 seconds for something to go off is pretty sad, and almost unusable except on Notorious Monsters (NM), and even then, they are too weak.


We shouldn't have to second-guess and try to "add / buff up" different things to make Ancient Magic actually work (and it doesn't work with that theory anyways).

Even the way we were given Ancient Magic shows how *little* the old Development Team cared about them:

* They dump ALL Ancient Magic Spells to you at Rank 44. You learn Flare, Freeze, Tornado, Quake, Burst, Flood all at the same time! Huh?!

Ancient Magic should be earned with great fanfare, 1 per Level, with beautiful Special Effects, high Damage, and usability. Not dumped all at once and completely useless as they are now.

Conjurers' spells in general need some tweaks as well, but that's another topic.

Thanks!

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They've already "tried it and it didn't work". That's the whole reason people were complaining about Ancient Magic in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

Please, Hamster, if you wish to bash on AM without adding anything, just go post in that thread. I mean this in a respectful way ~~ venting frustrations is a healthy thing...

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What is there to add? The problems with Ancient Magic are glaringly obvious and there are no positives associated with it at all. It costs too much MP, it costs too much AP, it takes forever to cast, the animation looks incredibly poor, and it doesn't even do that much damage. It's a total disgrace to the name, "Ancient Magic".

We've been testing it for 8 months now, and it has next to zero real use at all.

I believe in the intro video they had a mage cast magic (maybe ancient magic) on an archer and he fired it into the malbro. Maybe SE had plans to implement something like that in the future for it?

There is a few situational uses for this spell in it's current form. However, due to the high mp cost, and long casting time (36 seconds all together) Any arguement for the practical use of this spell just falls flat. In order to rectify this, the devs need to either:

A: Dramatically reduce the mp cost.
B: Dramatically increase the damage output.

While testing this spell I've noticed a few mechanics about the spell that, if tweaked, could make the spell worthwhile.

First: The AoE target radius does not move once cast on a target. For example, if I cast my AM on the mob, and the mob moves away from where I first cast it, the spell will miss. It's like I planted a mine on the ground where the mob was standing.

Second: After 30 seconds, the game will perform 5 checks to see if conditions are right to cast the spell. These conditions include "Casters distance from the target radius" and "Mobs position relative to the target radius". If both of these conditions are favorable, the spell will fire.

Third: It is impossible to use this spell in a battle regimen, because the spell doesn't actually fire until much later, after the battle regimen is initiated.

Changes I would make to these mechanics are as follows:

1: Make the target radius stick to your target. For example, if I target a mob, and the mob moves, the radius will move with the target. This opens the way for a lot of advanced tactics by way of this spell. Such as targeting a player, and then having them agro a group of mobs by running into the group and letting the spell go off. It also prevents the mob from moving away from the target radius if you cast it on a mob. Also if you are going to keep the target radius stationary, then it would be nice to have a visual indicator of where the spell is going to fire. It's very annoying when the spell fails simply because you can't find where the mob was standing 30 seconds ago.

2. Since the game performs 5 checks, why not let the spell fire 5 times if conditions remain favorable ? This alone would be enough of a damage increase to warrant use of the spell in my opinion.

3: If the spell were able to be placed at the end of a battle regimen, the damage output could be reasonable. However, due to the time delay this is impossible. So either the mechanics of battle regimen need to be changed, or the time delay needs to be removed.


By making either one of these changes the spell could become worthwhile. MP cost can be reduced manually by use of spiritbind. So the more immediate concern is that of damage output and time delay.

Also as many have voiced since beta, the animations for these spells are quite pitiful considering they are meant to be the most powerful spells for a CON.

There was also a rumor about the spell increasing the damage of same element nukes cast during that "buff" while you're waiting for the spell to go off. I've tried a number of times and frankly noticed no perceptible difference. Just thought I'd toss it out there though.

I've tested that idea myself, and I've had varying results. Currently I'm at the point where I'd need the aid of multiple conjurers in order to get a definitive answer, and I've been unable to get the help needed so far.

The idea is that the number of nukes that a single conjurer can input into boosting AM is limited and therefore it's hard to say whether or not any increase in damage is resultant from the nukes or not. 30 seconds isn't really enough time when you have to wait for cooldowns and stamina.

They don't affect the potency or accuracy of any other spells.
That's what chokes and drowns are for.

That's a real shame...I'm still new to the game, didn;t know the Ancient Magics were so useless. I hope they fix that.

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Originally Posted by Trigger

I believe in the intro video they had a mage cast magic (maybe ancient magic) on an archer and he fired it into the malbro. Maybe SE had plans to implement something like that in the future for it?

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This is actually a good point. It could be more useless to us now because a mechanic that has yet to be added.

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Originally Posted by Trigger

I believe in the intro video they had a mage cast magic (maybe ancient magic) on an archer and he fired it into the malbro. Maybe SE had plans to implement something like that in the future for it?

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag2cRTU-Og8&t=3m7s

Yup, I keep thinking about that every time I watch the opening movie. I think 'collaborative' magic would bring something really unique to this game's party experience. I hope that's where they were going with it.

That scene reminds me of the "Magic Sword" technique you could do with Steiner in FFIX. Basically any time there was a mage in the party (Vivi), you could have them cast a spell on your sword and do extra elemental damage. The good part of it too, was that it took away Steiner's (the melee) mana instead of the mage. So the mage gets to cast a spell at no mp cost, and the melee gets extra damage applied to their next attack. I can see it working really well in FFXIV, I hope they decide to add something like that. Maybe BLM, when it's unlocked will be able to do it. :)

Bring back skill chains, and make a huge bonus for magic bursting on skill chains with ancient magic.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

This is actually a good point. It could be more useless to us now because a mechanic that has yet to be added.

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That was the first thing I thought of when reading the thread too. I think it would be an interesting mechanic to bring into the game, especially if it caused a synergy where one element matches with one type of weapon, and if they're used together, the damage is amazing.

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Originally Posted by Shipp

That was the first thing I thought of when reading the thread too. I think it would be an interesting mechanic to bring into the game, especially if it caused a synergy where one element matches with one type of weapon, and if they're used together, the damage is amazing.

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I agree. It's reminiscent of Chrono Trigger, a game that I really enjoyed.

I offered up a detailed thesis about this very subject in my battle regimen reform and encouraging cooperation thread.

LINK: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...llChains2.0%29

what can be said about the new change? casting time for AM is now 15 secs