An article I think many of you should read

http://www.tentonhammer.com/the-delu...ation-requests

I found it to be a good read and thought I'd share.

Enjoy

TLDR : Developers don't have the time to waste on you, and even if they did, you're horrible people anyways.

that was a very informative read. Hopefully it'll pop this delusional bubble some of the forum users are hiding in, and bring them back to reality.

It is a good read. Thanks.

Think he should have touched upon the complexity of such MMO's. But it was still a good article.

People need to read this. As a developer, I absolutely loathe talking to clients, because no matter what the plan is, they will find osmething to complain about. Not communicating lets the core issues come through easier, instead of saying "we're doing that" then they'll just find stuff to nitpick about.

Good article.



Yesterday somebody in a private tell asked me to help them level, so i said can you read he said yes, my reply was see i just helped you level.

reading comprehension is key to this game shame so far 92% still don't bother to read.

Any of you who were here in beta remember all the threads about game being to easy yet all i see lately is how hard it is or i have no money in game.

Good article. Sadly whether it comes to community managers or developers is always as if youre bein arrested - every word you say can and will be used against you.
If i recall correctly there even was a Dev Panel at PAX concerning Toxicity and how to handle it without losing your mind - personally its gotten to ridicilous point and hopefully its a matter of time before comapanies standing behind games start to act and do something about it. They sure must pay them a lot @ Blizzard ^^

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Originally Posted by FritoBandito

http://www.tentonhammer.com/the-delu...ation-requests

I found it to be a good read and thought I'd share.

Enjoy

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Actually, developer interaction is pretty common these days, on Reddit in particular.

Good read, a bit arrogant but its what we've come to expect from Games developers (well many i know have).

I just want to say this is also a double edged sword, what he says is true to a point, but its lack of communication that also kills the games over night. Honestly if they came down from their high horses occasionally and talked to the unwashed masses they might actually learn something..

I could tell he was from Arenanet immediately he had that arrogance about him.

Rule 1, 2 and 3 are so true

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I just want to say this is also a double edged sword, what he says is true to a point, but its lack of communication that also kills the games over night. Honestly if they came down from their high horses occasionally and talked to the unwashed masses they might actually learn something..

I could tell he was from Arenanet immediately he had that arrogance about him.

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Your view is biased as well, I can tell by the bolded text. :P
In all seriousness, I agree with you that the lack of communication can kill a game especially when it is a major issue that prevent players from playing the game. (Servers' problems, Dysfunctional payment system, a patch that broke the OS...etc)

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Originally Posted by Ultradark

Your view is biased as well, I can tell by the bolded text. :P
In all seriousness, I agree with you that the lack of communication can kill a game especially when it is a major issue that prevent players from playing the game. (Servers' problems, Dysfunctional payment system, a patch that broke the OS...etc)

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Yes it is haha, but Bias or not they have that Air of we know better than you about them. Then wonder why their game is losing players so fast.

Dammit internet, this is why we can't have nice things :(
So now we are forever left out of the loop, because some people just can't behave...

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Originally Posted by DanteMog

Yes it is haha, but Bias or not they have that Air of we know better than you about them. Then wonder why their game is losing players so fast.

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Well, I hate to say it but the vast majority of the time they do know better. Most people ranting and complaining on MMO forums have very little knowledge or concept of the realities of what they are whinging about, especially when it comes to bugs and technical issues. There are some exceptions but this is true in most cases.

I THOUGHT ALL CAPS PUT MY COMPLAINT AT THE FRONT OF THE QUEUE. THIS MUST CHANGE

I know Ghostcrawler would incite so much rioting on the WoW forums that the community mods asked him not to post any more.

And trust me, rioting is really putting it lightly.

We should really be grateful that we have developers who don't purposely antagonize the players and forum goers.

The GW2 mods and devs seem to handle it just fine. They lock threads, have strict forum rules, and communicate very well with everybody. So it can be done with a little effort...

Good read

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Originally Posted by Felis

Rule 1, 2 and 3 are so true

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You're right. They really are. In DCUO there was early development mention of a quantum set they were thinking about and by launch the forums turned it into "They promised us quantum and lied! Unsubscribe!"

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Originally Posted by Sartori

The GW2 mods and devs seem to handle it just fine. They lock threads, have strict forum rules, and communicate very well with everybody. So it can be done with a little effort...

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They clearly have a more mature community than we do here then. I've personally watched threads that were locked for violating rules get new threads replying with "They're censoring us! They locked my thread that i started to incite violence and prejudice then banned me! Unsubscribe!"

(that wasn't a direct quote, but the gist of the thread)

Very good read that article. I liked it

I agree that devs should not anticipate content/patches that aren't 100% sure to go live in not too long time.
But I don't agree on the starting point: Paying customers DO deserve an answer on critical stuff (ie. the lag bug that's ignored by devs right now. They haven't even said that they're looking into it), even if they're "terrible people". Learn to cope with it, community relationships are part of your job, on a MMO game.
This is another reason why WoW has so much success: The devs listen and answer on the forums and know how to deal with the fanbase.
That part of the article just looks like a whine.

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Originally Posted by Sartori

The GW2 mods and devs seem to handle it just fine. They lock threads, have strict forum rules, and communicate very well with everybody. So it can be done with a little effort...

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Not at all.
They lock EVERYTHING that goes against the game, every single critic is locked, often with a stupid excuse (sometimes they're right, tho).
Their forum is terribly handled.

Their communication is extremely poor.

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Originally Posted by DanteMog

Good read, a bit arrogant but its what we've come to expect from Games developers (well many i know have).

I just want to say this is also a double edged sword, what he says is true to a point, but its lack of communication that also kills the games over night. Honestly if they came down from their high horses occasionally and talked to the unwashed masses they might actually learn something..

I could tell he was from Arenanet immediately he had that arrogance about him.

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Agree.

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Originally Posted by davidbowie

Good article.



Yesterday somebody in a private tell asked me to help them level, so i said can you read he said yes, my reply was see i just helped you level.

reading comprehension is key to this game shame so far 92% still don't bother to read.

Any of you who were here in beta remember all the threads about game being to easy yet all i see lately is how hard it is or i have no money in game.

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Says the level 31 Lancer.... How about you wait until you have a max level character farming tomes and paying for repair costs while also trying to get a few crafts up. Then start a new class and come back here and tell us how much gil you're getting from quests.

TL;DR you don't know what you're talking about

ffxiv offical white knight here.

are you so mistrusted that you think yoshi P is mistrust he keep ever promise made to community and yet you claim he stuck up and he will to lie to you yet. His track history shown kept every promise he made to us.

http://zantetsuken.net/news/final-fa...2-2-and-beyond

TenTonHammer is the LAST site I would visit for information of any value. I've dealt with their garbage in the past, and refuse to do it again. They are literally the Digital River of gaming sites....

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Originally Posted by Fuz

I agree that devs should not anticipate content/patches that aren't 100% sure to go live in not too long time.
But I don't agree on the starting point: Paying customers DO deserve an answer on critical stuff (ie. the lag bug that's ignored by devs right now. They haven't even said that they're looking into it), even if they're "terrible people". Learn to cope with it, community relationships are part of your job, on a MMO game.
This is another reason why WoW has so much success: The devs listen and answer on the forums and know how to deal with the fanbase.
That part of the article just looks like a whine.

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In truth, it's NOT a developer's job to interact directly with their customers on a regular basis. That's what Support and Community Managers/Project Managers/Product Managers/etc. are for. I agree that more communication on critical issues would be great but it should not necessarily come from the development team directly. Support is the front line when it comes to product issues and a customer on an individual basis via an incident or "ticket". From what I've read the major issues here are poor individual customer interaction experiences with Support, lack of responsive Support and lack of communication from SE in general via the Community Managers. Another part of it is that a large number of folks posting on the forums want instant results/responses.

A lot of Developers are brilliant people when it comes to development but are socially inept and are often introverts. Directly interacting isn't necessarily taboo or a bad idea, it's just not something all developers are very good at. Especially given how many posts on forums come from complete animals hiding behind a digital persona knowing that they will never see any repercussions for their actions. Developers often look at the product they are developing as their "baby" and get attached to it. It's not easy to take non-constructive, harsh and downright insulting "feedback" when you're emotionally attached to the target of said "feedback" and don't have the emotional or social tools to cope. I'd wager most people in general would lose their sh#t if they were subjected to all of the negativity on a daily basis.

It's unfortunately a complex issue with no simple solution. Doesn't mean there is no solution, but it ain't easy finding the right balance. I can understand the perspective in the article posted in the OP.

Without paying customers there will be problems. And yes people will vote with their dollar and leave if they don't feel things are being handled as properly or quickly as they could, bottom line.

The devs are doing their job to make money, and catering/serving/listening to paying customers goes hand in hand with that.

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Originally Posted by MochaLatte

Without paying customers there will be problems. And yes people will vote with their dollar and leave if they don't feel things are being handled as properly or quickly as they could, bottom line.

The devs are doing their job to make money, and catering/serving/listening to paying customers goes hand in hand with that.

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Well, actually that's the Product/Project Manager's job. Developers will just end up implementing whatever direction they decide the product will go. Developers are basically grunts that implement the specifications and requirements for whatever they are working on. The management above them often lays the specs/reqs out.

And yes, I agree. Customers will vote with their money and it is important for any given company to hear what their customers want and what their grievances are to keep them coming back.

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Originally Posted by FritoBandito

http://www.tentonhammer.com/the-delu...ation-requests

I found it to be a good read and thought I'd share.

Enjoy

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Awesome find. Being on both sides of this issue I can emphatically state that some developers simply refuse to communicate or shouldn't. Heh.

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Originally Posted by Sartori

The GW2 mods and devs seem to handle it just fine. They lock threads, have strict forum rules, and communicate very well with everybody. So it can be done with a little effort...

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I can't speak to whether or not it's a 'little effort', but seeing it done well for other games makes the masses as a whole believe that it should be that easy for every game.

The article is good, but I am disappointed in it as well. I played Defiance before this game for about 4 months and I really enjoyed it. But that game had some bad game-breaking bugs and problems with it that persisted for weeks on end before getting fixed. And the extreme lack of communication from any developers of the game literally cut the player base in half. You can use extreme examples all day about the hatred pointed towards 'them and their families', and I totally believe those things are said to them. But this doesn't explain why a simple statement isn't made saying, "We are looking into this and it is being addressed." Some companies are better than others, but the fact is whether or not it will be hours, days or weeks before a certain problem is fixed, we still as a customer deserve the right to know.

Basically what I'm getting at, is I won't ever be one of those people who spew malice and hatred towards a game developer. I know there will be people who say uncalled for things. But to use his statistic, just because 2,000 people are moronic D-bags, isn't a sufficient enough reason for some companies to alienate the other 198,000 people who genuinely just want an update on problems. Whether what they say is what we want to hear or not, we still want to hear it.

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Originally Posted by Shizue

In truth, it's NOT a developer's job to interact directly with their customers on a regular basis. That's what Support and Community Managers/Project Managers/Product Managers/etc. are for. I agree that more communication on critical issues would be great but it should not necessarily come from the development team directly. Support is the front line when it comes to product issues and a customer on an individual basis via an incident or "ticket". From what I've read the major issues here are poor individual customer interaction experiences with Support, lack of responsive Support and lack of communication from SE in general via the Community Managers. Another part of it is that a large number of folks posting on the forums want instant results/responses.

A lot of Developers are brilliant people when it comes to development but are socially inept and are often introverts. Directly interacting isn't necessarily taboo or a bad idea, it's just not something all developers are very good at. Especially given how many posts on forums come from complete animals hiding behind a digital persona knowing that they will never see any repercussions for their actions. Developers often look at the product they are developing as their "baby" and get attached to it. It's not easy to take non-constructive, harsh and downright insulting "feedback" when you're emotionally attached to the target of said "feedback" and don't have the emotional or social tools to cope. I'd wager most people in general would lose their sh#t if they were subjected to all of the negativity on a daily basis.
It's unfortunately a complex issue with no simple solution. Doesn't mean there is no solution, but it ain't easy finding the right balance. I can understand the perspective in the article posted in the OP.

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I didn't mean that it should come from the dev team. Although it would be nice if they stopped by every now and then, it's not their job. But they HAVE TO have people tending and managing the community and giving answers to issues.

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Originally Posted by Fuz

I didn't mean that it should come from the dev team. Although it would be nice if they stopped by every now and then, it's not their job. But they HAVE TO have people tending and managing the community and giving answers to issues.

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This, I agree with you 100% on. The lack of communication to the FFXIV community is disheartening at best. I for one believe that it would be in SE's best interests to step up their game in this respect.

Reading this article should be made part of the terms of agreement for using the forum or something.

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Originally Posted by Fuz

I didn't mean that it should come from the dev team. Although it would be nice if they stopped by every now and then, it's not their job. But they HAVE TO have people tending and managing the community and giving answers to issues.

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We must be living in a parallel world where I'm seeing devs post on the forums on a daily basis and for whatever reason you don't. Seriously, 99% of the whine posts and threads on this forum are about something that have already been raised before and already acknowledged by the devs. Just because they can't be bothered to reiterate their response to every single person who don't know how to use the dev tracker or search function and decide to post a whole new thread about something as if it's never been talked about before doesn't mean somehow the devs stopped caring.

I have a question though. Where do you draw the line of communication? How many times does it need to be said that "X is being worked on" or "we know its an issue"? I would say about 80% of the comments that are prevalent on the forums here have already been addressed and mentioned by the devs. Now is it poor communication if they dont repeat themselves for every single person who comes here and makes the same complaint? How many places does it need to be said before people see it? Where is the best place to communicate? Where should they draw the line, after they respond to 6 posts about the same thing? 3? just make one dev post? It seems regardless of how the "complaint" is responded to by the devs its not good enough or people pick it apart and find 5 more complaints. What qualifies as a sufficient response? I can tell you that the answers to these questions will be different for almost every one of you reading this, at that point, the most important question becomes "How do you make everyone happy?" Answer: You can't. You will drive yourself insane trying. So if you have a magical formula that will solve everybody's problem for every situation, you could possibly win the Nobel Peace prize for creating World Peace. Until then,"you can only please some of the people some of the time". What more do you want?

Now if they start just copy pasting the same thing every time someone thinks they are the first one to mention something you will have the backlash of "its just a copy pasted response! they dont take the time to even leave a personal message. they don't care about the community!". How much spoonfeeding do devs need to do? I remember during the beta they had bold large letters about a "read this before participating in the beta" that had download links and what the beta was testing. yet daily there would be threads upon threads looking for a download or confused about the point of the beta or asking what they needed to be testing.

I can see the frustration on both sides, but I do think a little more effort on the person seeking the information needs to be done. If there was a bit more of this, there would be fewer junk threads crowding out more interesting and legit threads leaving it easier to find the info you are looking for in the first place.

I love the link in the OP and think it is a very good explanation of why communication is what it is and it can easily be summed up in this quote from the article

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The sad reality though is that while communication between developers and players can change and improve, until there's a shift in human behavior on the internet, it will never happen.

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Just my 2gil.

There can be teasers without communication, such as videos (a method done by NCsoft, who I hate, butthis is tthe one thing they did right).

People get caught up in words, I find. For example, the transfer announcement came out and instead of being happy about the service, the fact its free for 5 days, or we have details on the service -- people started complaining about how its done.

I was happy to hear the announcement and I enjoy the way SE reps speak (they are so humble). I hope they stick with communication. Its such a nice change.

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Originally Posted by Savagelf

ffxiv offical white knight here.

are you so mistrusted that you think yoshi P is mistrust he keep ever promise made to community and yet you claim he stuck up and he will to lie to you yet. His track history shown kept every promise he made to us.

http://zantetsuken.net/news/final-fa...2-2-and-beyond

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Also new Hildibrand quests and FATEs are being added. If you didn’t know, Hildibrand was a comic relief NPC from version 1.0. He has his own… unique sense of humor.

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This alone make patch 2.1 awesome ^^

Some people are saying that customers are kings, they are entitled to things because they pay top dollars. Right.
Am I allowed to slap some Mc Donald clerks because I did pay for the french fries ?

This kind of outdated thinking have to stop. MMO is a business, do you see any business can continue to proceed without proper communication with the customer?
Look at this Path of Exile's reddit post (redirect to their official forum)
http://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/...ff_is_awesome/

The staff do a funny reply to a troll post. To some, it's insulting the customer, but to me, it just awesome. Maybe the developer is angry and it show in his reply but hey, at least we all get a feedback from developer.
Ignoring the customer only work for awhile, and eventually, the discontent will grow and player will leave. Then the game start dying down and this kind of communication coordinator will look for new job.

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Originally Posted by Blimbeard

Well, I hate to say it but the vast majority of the time they do know better. Most people ranting and complaining on MMO forums have very little knowledge or concept of the realities of what they are whinging about, especially when it comes to bugs and technical issues. There are some exceptions but this is true in most cases.

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Yes knowledge of games design yes sure, but knowledge of the actual game and its problems players are facing in and around their games, not always, many forum posts where players have written in and explained about exploits and broken features etc, the devs seemed to be oblivious of, many players know the games better than the Devs because we play their games 24/7 and find things Devs have maybe over looked or didn't even realize players would be able to do.

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Originally Posted by XNihili

Some people are saying that customers are kings, they are entitled to things because they pay top dollars. Right.
Am I allowed to slap some Mc Donald clerks because I did pay for the french fries ?

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Of course not. That would be totally inappropriate even if the french fries weren't cooked.

Now if you wanted to complain to the manager to complain about the service and uncooked food, then that would be appropriate.

Also you can easily talk to the people that run businesses and mention problems like this without it seeming like a problem to most. Many even like it if you point out something obviously wrong. Like in a grocery store it would seem kinda bad if someone was sleeping at work and you could mention it to a manager and likely have them be glad to know. You can even suggest to the manager about carrying certain items like bean sprouts and many end up starting to order certain foods solely because someone mentioned they'd like it in the store.

I trust SE they have earned my trust with years of quality games. While i may have not liked every game, each one of the games has been a quality product.
When i played FFXI for well over 9000 hours, i had my complaints and things that made me pull my hair out, i also had things i really liked. The point is, it is just a matter of taste for many things, bugs get prioritized on how many people it is effecting.
SE use common sense, they have the numbers to make intelligent choices. I trust them to do what is right. I just hope the game turns into something i will continue to like.

People on the forums however, it is all opinion be it their own or one passed on from another person. We don't have figures, we only have our experiences and the experiences of the small percentage of people who talk on various forums and the people we know in game. Yet people carry on like they know what is right for the game. forum users know what is more important to them, not what is right for the majority.