Why not make SMN's Bahamut do Megaflare when it's summoned

Phoenix does Everlasting Flight when summoned and Bahamut doesn't do anything, it seems like a waste. A Megaflare dealing aoe damage around the target would be interesting. It might deal more damage yes but you can just take the damage out of other skills to keep the balance. And yes, I know that the LB (Teraflare) is basically Megaflare but it seems out of place to me. Why not make it another summon like Odin or Alexander do the LB, or even, make it a combined attack of Bahamut of Phoenix?

The reason is simple, just because with the current summoner's mechanics, it wouldn't work.
If Bahamut deals more damage than Phoenix, as it was the case in 6.0, a level 70 summoner would be stronger than a level 80 summoner,
because summoning Phoenix would be a reduction in burst damage.

To implement this, you would need to separate the Bahamut/Phoenix summon buttons to give summoners the choice of whom to summon based on the situation.
For example, by introducing a 1.5-second cast time/2.5s recast for Bahamut and making it stronger than Phoenix in exchange, while keeping Phoenix as an instant cast ability and focused on support.

I don't know what they have in store for the Summoner in 7.0, but many of its mechanics will need a complete overhaul if it is to undergo fundamental changes.
The current rotation has several issues that need to be addressed in order for the future kit to be more refined than it is currently.

If the Summoner remains as it is currently, we'll likely just get different reskins of the existing Legos ''elemental-summon'' and end up with a rotation without real strategic choices, much like it is now.

In my opinion, the best approach without a complete rework would be to separate Phoenix and Bahamut, add three buttons for 3 potentials new summons, and provide three gems that can be spent on three of the six different summons of your choice.

This would involve creating three high-risk, high-damage summons and three medium-damage, mobile summons to allow summoners to consider whether it's worth taking risks to increase their DPS or if it's better to play it safe and avoid a potential KO, even at the cost of some DPS.

I also believe that Energy Drain/Siphon should be removed, and two stacks should be added to Painflare and Fester, which should theoretically be renamed since we no longer use bacteria,
they should, of course, have a shared cooldown, meaning if you use Fester, it consumes 1 stack of Painflare and vice versa.

In return, they could introduce a new resource management system with the Carbuncles, as they currently serve little purpose.
Giving them a real utility and a spell, and removing their role as receptacles for summons would make sense.

Physick should also be removed because its existence no longer makes any sense, as it is entirely useless.

It is time for them to remove useless Arcanist spells that the Summoner still shares with the Scholar because they are fundamentally two distinct jobs, even if they have the same starting foundation.

Agree with everything, but Physick should just scale with INT and be useful for the same niche situations that Vercure is.

Physick should be removed and replaced with absolutely nothing lol.

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Originally Posted by remiff

The reason is simple, just because with the current summoner's mechanics, it wouldn't work.
If Bahamut deals more damage than Phoenix, as it was the case in 6.0, a level 70 summoner would be stronger than a level 80 summoner,
because summoning Phoenix would be a reduction in burst damage.

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And people wonder why the game is so stale job-wise. Just another prime example. I mean Phoenix was lower in damage because it could also heal. Makes a lot of sense to me. But then min-maxers threw a hissy fit and the potency got changed. Small change but exemplary.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

And people wonder why the game is so stale job-wise. Just another prime example. I mean Phoenix was lower in damage because it could also heal. Makes a lot of sense to me. But then min-maxers threw a hissy fit and the potency got changed. Small change but exemplary.

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The issue is that Phoenix is part of a 120-second cycle defined with a burst every 60 seconds,
if you force the use of Phoenix within the same burst, it's not normal.

It wasn't normal for Phoenix to be a DPS loss previously, which they corrected, of course.
The only solution to make Phoenix and Bahamut entirely different is to reduce the DPS that Phoenix provides, to separate Phoenix and Bahamut and give the summoner the choice to have more DPS or less DPS/support, is in my opinion,
the only plausible solution to prevent Phoenix from being a pale copy of the Bahamut with healing.

Certainly, this would make it situational,
but a Phoenix that deals damage equivalent to Bahamut and provides HP regeneration that is useless if it doesn't align with raid damage or on a similar situation,
when Phoenix is a mandatory part in the rotation, is definitely not the healthiest choice the developers made when designing the summoner's rework.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Physick should be removed and replaced with absolutely nothing lol.

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Let's say that almost no one will mourn this loss, as it has never been useful beyond level 20.
The most unpleasant part would be losing the resurrection, as Yoshi-P mentioned when discussing the Summoner rework for 6.0, stating that resurrection would probably disappear in 7.0.
If they remove the rez and if Physick stay, it would be a real slap in the face to Summoners.

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Originally Posted by remiff

The issue is that Phoenix is part of a 120-second cycle defined with a burst every 60 seconds,
if you force the use of Phoenix within the same burst, it's not normal.

It wasn't normal for Phoenix to be a DPS loss previously, which they corrected, of course.
The only solution to make Phoenix and Bahamut entirely different is to reduce the DPS that Phoenix provides, to separate Phoenix and Bahamut and give the summoner the choice to have more DPS or less DPS/support, is in my opinion,
the only plausible solution to prevent Phoenix from being a pale copy of the Bahamut with healing.

Certainly, this would make it situational, but a Phoenix that deals damage equivalent to Bahamut and provides HP regeneration that is useless if it doesn't align with raid damage or a similar situation when Phoenix is forced into the rotation is definitely not the healthiest choice the developers made when designing the summoner's rework.



Let's say that almost no one will mourn this loss, as it has never been useful beyond level 20. The most unpleasant part would be losing the resurrection, as Yoshi-P mentioned when discussing the Summoner rework for 6.0, stating that resurrection would probably disappear in 7.0. If they remove the rez and if Physick stay, it would be a real slap in the face to Summoners.

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Resurrection belongs to the Nords healers.

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Originally Posted by remiff

The issue is that Phoenix is part of a 120-second cycle defined with a burst every 60 seconds,
if you force the use of Phoenix within the same burst, it's not normal.

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I know why it happened. My point is to not listen to min-maxers. A slight potency loss doesn't lead to people leaving but balancing the fun out of the combat does. SE should stick to a vision and only listen for feedback in terms of QoL and such.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

I know why it happened. My point is to not listen to min-maxers. A slight potency loss doesn't lead to people leaving but balancing the fun out of the combat does. SE should stick to a vision and only listen for feedback in terms of QoL and such.

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It wasn't about min-maxing at all. It's about how upon learning Summon Phoenix you immediately became weaker because Bahamut->Pheonix was objectively weaker than Bahamut->Bahamut, and this isn't a min-maxing issue (because there is no choice involved) but a "leveling up should never make you weaker" issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by remiff

The only solution to make Phoenix and Bahamut entirely different is to reduce the DPS that Phoenix provides, to separate Phoenix and Bahamut and give the summoner the choice to have more DPS or less DPS/support, is in my opinion,
the only plausible solution to prevent Phoenix from being a pale copy of the Bahamut with healing.

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This is a non solution because then there would be a min-maxing issue in that nobody would ever use Phoenix in a competently played party because there would never be enough incoming damage to require that healing and it would sacrifice dps.

I think you guys kinda have the wrong idea of where the SMN actually needs the work.

And its not 86th and higher, its at lower levels. Once you get to 86th it does start to become more strategic with the added Garuda/Ifrit/Titan Summons powers. Bahamut and Phoenix are the only ones that aren't and those are the ones that haven't changed that much other than the change of the Dreadwyrm Trance timer with Ruin enhancement portion before Bursting.

BUT that was always the part OUTSIDE of your normal SMN rotation.

The strategic portion was all the lower level stuff they removed. You had 5 different DoTs you had to stack which enhanced your Ruin potency, plus pet actions, plus Aetherflow for 3 charges of Painflare/Fester. The second iteration or Stormblood iteration that went down to only 2 or 3 DoTs, and you only got 2 charges of Aetherflow. That was what you normally spent most of your time with in the Previous iterations of SMN... ie... all the Arcanist stuff. That's why sub-86th its mostly just ruin spam now, because that's all that's left were the only portions of it that were an actual Summoner of the original job.

So the actual key to making it more "strategic" is in those lower level abilities. They actually did a really good job with the Ifrit/Garuda/Titan summons with regards to that, but you don't see that until 86th level. They are way more strategic than Bahamut or Phoenix ever were. But what used to keep you occupied while you were waiting for those 2 was all those DoTs, Pet Ablilities, and Aetherflow powers you no longer have.

Nothing you do with the Higher level powers will change any of that. So you need to understand that right off the bat. The work needs to be done at lower levels.

As to the high level stuff in 7.0, I am actually partial to the 3 more Legos under the Phoenix Summon. Hopefully they are just as strategic as the current Ifrit/Garuda/Titan summon powers are. But that again is not where it needs the work... its at the lower levels.