The trinity, party responsibility, and how to try and improve the game from within

So first off, what do I want to do with this thread ?

I'll try to give my point of view on the trinity and what it has become in FFxiv

I'll talk a bit about the threads that we see poping here and there (dps, healers, and whatnot)

I'll give some of my ideas on what we, the community, could do to improve ourselves, and what the devs can do to help us in that process

Of course, this will be totally personnal, and some will agree, disagree, don't care, etc... So keep that in mind before reading, before posting, or anything else.

I'll give a lot of context first so if you want to skip all the chit chat and look directly at the debate, go to the big (III).

(also please forgive any spelling or grammar mistake I may do. I'll also try to be as clear as my English level allows me :o )

(I) The Holy Trinity, and what to do with it in FFxiv ?

Here I'll mostly talk a bit about stuff that will become important later in my post.

So, we all know the base principle :

Quote:

Tanks : They keep the attention of the monsters, mitigate the damage as much as possible and contribute to the damage as much as they can.

Supports : They do a lot of stuff for the group, usually healing, buffing and debuffing. Their combat capacities are sub-par but they compensate with their awesome utility.

Damage Dealers : They anihilate every living monster in sight. Pretty self explanatory.

Supports in FFxiv are only healers per design, so I'll call them as such from now on.

As for the DDs (Damage Dealers. I'll call them like that because I'll use the term DPS for its first meaning, in a general way, including the dps from tanks and healers), they are a few inequalities in their individual output but they are compensated by their group synergy most of the time (bards, machinists), or core mechanics (casters being immobile).

However, what is really noticeable is that the DD's output in general is pretty weak in FFxiv, when we compare it to the tanks. That was a first for me in a trinity game. Not only that, but the healers themselves can dish out an awesome amount of dps because of the general design of the game allowing them to spend a lot of time not healing for the best players.

This created a shift in the paradigm, blurring the border lines between the roles.
(insert opinions on healer dps and tank dps)
(I'll talk more about it a bit later)

Is it really bad to blur the borders ? It depends. Though one thing that has to be kept in mind is that the original concept has to remain if you want to keep calling that a Trinity. As it stands with tanks in 3.0, the devs went a little too far in this sense. Not because tanks are not tanks anymore, but because the DDs don't really feel like DDs anymore.

(II) So what does this have to do with the threads we can see in the forum ?

Well, many of the debates we can see here and there are consequences of those blurred frontiers between the roles.

I'll start with healers, because you know... It's a kinda recurrent subjet since 2.0 anyway, right ?

Let me start by saying that I won't go into this debate here. Nor will I go into the debate of tank dps when I come to it.

Instead, I'll focus on the causes of this debate and consequences it brought in game.

Because it all started when good players noticed that their healing output was large enough to spend time doing something else, and because running in circle wasn't exactly useful. So they started DPSing, and many people got inspired (it's not exactly instinctive to go and DPS as a healer at first) and reproduced it.

At that time, healer dps was seen as a very nice addition, easing runs by shortening them. But then it happened that FCOB got cleared week 1 thanks to this healer DPS (among other things, but it was definitively one of the decisive factors imho).
People then started to strongly enforce DPS as a core role of the healer along with, well... healing. Going as far as calling people who didn't want to DPS "lazy" and such.

Going into the expansion, healer DPS becoming compulsory in Alexander Savage (compared to the optionnal bonus it was in 2.X) didn't really help at all about these debates.

=================================================

Other debate, tank DPS. Yeah, this one. STR vs VIT, why tanking in tank stance when DPS stance does the job and doesn't make us die, even in raids, etc etc... But the big debate of 3.0 might just be the "WAR vs DRK/PLD" (aka "PLD sucks and WAR is OP"). But... why ? All of the tanks do the same job (taking hate and keeping it), have similar survival possibilities that work differently for the sake of diversity, there shouldn't be such a big debate.. right ?

Yeah, but no. Once again, Alexander savage skewed things *a bit*. Because all that matters there is dps (survival isn't optionnal but rather secondary). And because the tanks aren't quite the same dps-wise. PLD got shunned, WAR became god-like (2.0 got flipped totally with 3.0 heh). And the debates came back once again to "how and why should we do mad deeps ?".

====================================================

But why do we really have these debates after all ?
Bluntly put, it's because the DDs aren't really significant.

Once again, that is by design. The devs wanted to provide significant DPS tools to healers and tanks, to help them play solo for questing. Those tools also have an obvious use in group content, and nothing in the game prevents you from using them. No real incoming damage that makes you stay in tank stance, no continuous damage preventing healers to go ito cleric, etc... And that's fine.

What isn't fine though, is the fact that this dps holds a great importance. Tank DPS can be more than 70% of a DD, and healers can do a lot too.

While that enhances the role of tank and healer, it diminishes greatly the role of DD, because dealing damage is really the sole thing they do. And fact is, in FFxiv they don't really do it that well.

On the other hand, if DDs were doing 6 times the amount of damage tanks and healer can dream of, that would create other problems : solo play balance would be irrealist, and tank or healer DPS would be neglictible anyway so why bother ? So they would become bored, because their role currently accounts for this DPS possibility.

OK, that's great and all, but what do I want to say with this ?

Well, the DD role has been diminished, proportionnally to the enhancement brought to the other 2 roles. What came due to that was a loss of meaning of the role as a whole. That was already the case before, DD being the "I don't want to deal with the other stuff" cluster role, but it reinforced it by shifting the mentality of the role. It's not rare nowadays to see people think that a DD is just there to deal damage and that's it. If things die the DD did its job.

Yeaaaaaah, no.

(III) The new paradigm is destroying the spirit of the DD

Debate starts here for those of you who might have skipped the context

Important side note :

Quote:

What will be said here for the DDs is still true for Tanks or Healers. It just happens that the requirements for those 2 roles in FFxiv or MMOs in general are pretty easy to fulfill, making the debate shift from "do your role" to "do more things besides your role".

I'll talk here only about doing what the DD role should be vs what is it perceived to be nowadays.

So yeah. Damage Dealers. The name is pretty self-explanatory, but at the same time, forgets a crapton of stuff going on behind the obvious "do stuff, kill things".

What the name implies:

Quote:

do damage (duh)

yay ! With that done...

What the name forgets to imply, but what the role is neertheless :

Quote:

do what you can to increase your damage output

kill things as fast as you can do

always strive to increase your skill, as the party is dependent on it to clear content

Those 3 points are apparently being forgotten with time. Mainly because the 3rd point is nullified by design in FFxiv.

Simply put, you can do crap and still beat the main content of the game (dungeons, 24 man raids, HM trials, MSQs...). Partly because better players will easily compensate the weak links because the content has an abyssimally low skill level check in general, but also because there isn't anything punishing you for being bad at any point in the game if you aren't doing Ex primals or High-end raids (currently, Alexander Savage).

I'll use this thread as an example.

Putting the debate itself aside, what we can see is that there are essentially 2 types of players : those who expect people to do their best, and those who don't care as content is cleared within the (generous) dungeon timer.

I'm more interested at the second group. Because they go against what a DD essentially is. They do not care if the player isn't even trying, if that doesn't lead to a dead end.

However, this is NOT what a DD's mindset should be. DDs should want and try to do the best they can.

DDs should use the entirety of their useful skillset (some are too situationnal to warrant a permanent use) to do the maximum damage output they can, in order to minimize the time spent in fights. It is their responsibility as the primary source of damage in the group. Thus, it does matter a lot if they are trying to do so or not.
If they don't want to do that, they have to choose a role that better suits them between tank or healer, instead of rolling DD thinking they'll have no responsibility.

But then arises an other problem. How can we tell if someone is slacking or just doing their best, and this best being clearly subpar ?

Communication. Talk to people, ask them if they want advice, etc... Beginners are usually pretty easy to spot, and I have yet to meet any who would refuse quick advice.

For the beginners themselves, what can they do then ? There is only so much you can do. Thankfully, the internet is awesome and is full of guides. just like this guy says, there are only benefits to check those guides to perfect your style.
(I know this is World of Warcraft. Change the name to FFxiv and there you go)
Asking people with more experience than you have is the right mind to have. You'll only get benefits from it, and you may even discover a way to deal even more damage and be the one teaching new (or older) players one day !

As for you who encounter said beginners, well, take a bit of your time to help them if they ask for advice (be sure to ask if they want some before). It will help way more to take 5 minutes to make them understand the basics than to harass them because they aren't as good as you are.

If the guy is just a slacker though, there is nothing much you can do but to votekick them or leave the duty, because pretty much anything that you'll be doing would rapidly become harassment in one of the 2 sides.

Disclaimer :

Quote:

I know you can't be at your best all the time. But you can at least give a damn, right ? Trying is all that is expected from you :)

(IV) Improving the community to improve the game's experience for everyone

I strongly believe that there are things that we, as a community, can do to improve the daily gaming experience in FFxiv.

Of course, it starts by starting to communicate again. Like I said just above, teach the new players, integrate them in the community... But that's not the only thing.

From the community :

Quote:

try to favor grouping with people from your server. Get away with the randoms in DF. As a side effect, that would also make people care more about their input in the group, as they'd be way more likely to meet the players again in the future, and noone wants to be excluded from content because the entire server refuses to play with you.

don't stick too much in your statics of FC if you aren't doing high-end content. While it's nice to play with friends, you're shutting the door to all of the other players. Develop your network and build the community more

don't be an a$$ (obvious but we aren't saying this enough).

Yeah, that's generally called "being social", and should be a no-brainer in a MMO. Well, it's not, so there's that. And I'm mostly guilty of that too, as I tend to use DF a lot more than PF.

From the devs :

Quote:

Allow us to judge the DD's performances. If scolding a tank/healer because they fail at their job (easy to spot) isn't harassment, scolding a DD sub-performing shouldn't be harassment either. And yes, you CAN scold someone for not doing their job without harassing them.

Block tiers of content behind skill checks. Yeah I said it. Don't allow people to go in content they cannot hope to beat at their current skill level, because they'll just hinder the other players or end up being carried. The Training Halls could be perfect for that.

Alternatively, increase the skill baseline so that people can't breeze through regular content by doing only 40% of their potential. While it's mostly fine in levelling (can't expect a learning player to be efficient right off the bat with their new skills), max level dungeons should step up in difficulty. Make players progress and be better in regular content, not only in 8 man raids.

None of these suggestions are perfect. They can all be abused in some way or an other. But on a general scale, they should improve the community by favoring a positive mindset and incrasing intra-server interactions.

=============================================================

Wow I didn't expect to have so much to write in the end... Lots of stuff on my mind. Well, it's here now, open for discussion and suggestions. :)

TL;DR :
I guess the best way to summarize this 15k caracters essay would be : "Be social and try to do your best, as a player and as a human" ?

/delete spam

I am social and friendly but many do not like my playstyle. I am a 100% healer, I do not dps. I am a healer, I am there to keep everyone alive. If I accomplish that then I did my job. If I wanted to DPS I would be on my Ninja or Bard. People expecting the healer to pick the slack for the DPS is not fair and unreasonable in my opinion. I state up front I am heals only, if they don't like it they can kick me and take thier chances with a replacement healer if they get one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bixillarla

People expecting the healer to pick the slack for the DPS is not fair and unreasonable in my opinion.

It's a fine mentality, but this one line of your post irks me. One could easily say that a damage dealer needs to pick up the slack of a healer who refuses to DPS, as healers DPSing is a norm. However, everyone in a duty is part of a team, and it'd be great if everyone there operated in a team mentality. Instead of viewing how you are picking up each others slack, think about how you can all work together and what you can do to help your team achieve its goal.

To the OP, well written summary of the many issues regarding trinity in this game. Thumbs up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnduinLynn

/delete spam

Rude, if you post is saying the OP post is useless spam. Maybe has something constructive to say or move onto another thread.

I like your core pont, at least it appears to be the main point which is that the trinity is breaking down because everyone is measured by their dps and DDs are just not that powerful. That forces everyone into the same mold - DD and DD-lite.

I have a solution in mind. Leave things as they are for solo play, but when in a party make tanks tankier (increase damage resistance and aggro multiplier), and do less DPS (reduce attack potency), make Healers healier (strongerbuffs and heals) and do less DPS (reduce attack potency), make DDs stronger (increase potency of attacks), but squishier (decrease damage/status resistance.

This restores DD to the correct place in a party, while at the same time compensating tanks and healers by strengthening their respective roles. Since this is a buffonly when in a party, it doesn't alter solo capability, but for group play it encourages the trinity and knowing your role.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaurie

It's a fine mentality, but this one line of your post irks me. One could easily say that a damage dealer needs to pick up the slack of a healer who refuses to DPS, as healers DPSing is a norm. However, everyone in a duty is part of a team, and it'd be great if everyone there operated in a team mentality. Instead of viewing how you are picking up each others slack, think about how you can all work together and what you can do to help your team achieve its goal.

To the OP, well written summary of the many issues regarding trinity in this game. Thumbs up.

It is not the norm. Healers job is to heal and keep people alive, since Alex Savage people have been expecting healers to DPS in every dungeon. Before AS came out it was not expected and there were no problems. If I want to DPS I would not be healing. My job is to keep everyone alive not kill. When I join a DF roulette it says Healer not DPS for my role.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bixillarla

It is not the norm. Healers job is to heal and keep people alive, since Alex Savage people have been expecting healers to DPS in every dungeon. Before AS came out it was not expected and there were no problems. If I want to DPS I would not be healing. My job is to keep everyone alive not kill. When I join a DF roulette it says Healer not DPS for my role.

You say that based on other MMOs, not based on this one. On FFXIV, this is indeed the norm, ever since Sastasha. I ran it as WHM the other day and had to use Cure only two times the entire dungeon. Stone is Level 1, Aero is level 4 and Cleric Stance is level 6.

Just because it's different from what you wanted or what you expected, doesn't mean it's not intended.

Mind you, I agree healers shouldn't be needed to DPS, but this game is currently designed this way (which I don't agree either), like it or not.

@To OP, though:

I've been thinking the same thing, how tanks should feel more like tanks and not DPS that can take tank busters, and how healers should feel more like healers and not DPS that has to turn Cleric Stance off at specific moments of the fight to complement the other healer.

Great write up, OP. I am one of the people who believe the traditional trinity idea doesn't apply to this game, due to exactly your points on the roles, and who hopes that 4.0 will bring more utility to the damage dealer class, allowing them to expand on their role as more than just a damage dealer(like the old Bard LBs, 1 bar gave a damage boost to all party members, while 2,3 bars gave raid wide heals)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bixillarla

It is not the norm.

I guess by norm, I meant that normally healers DPS, in that most healers DPS. This is at least from my experience.

Quote:

Healers job is to heal and keep people alive, since Alex Savage people have been expecting healers to DPS in every dungeon. Before AS came out it was not expected and there were no problems.

I've personally been DPSing as a healer, and seeing healers DPS normally, and expecting as such since at least 2.4.

Quote:

If I want to DPS I would not be healing. My job is to keep everyone alive not kill. When I join a DF roulette it says Healer not DPS for my role.

You have accurately exemplified the entire point of the OP's post.