Manipulation vs MMII

I just did a bunch of goldsmith synths, and found myself using 2 manipulations instead of a master's mend II quite often.

Positives:

• it's an extra step, an extra shot at ToT, chance to extend the synth to get in a 3rd CZ
• it's versatile, you don't need to be at 10/20 durability, which can save a step of SHII
• it can keep you from capping out CP if you get a lot of ToT procs early

Negative:

• it costs 16 more CP

When I had SHII wear off at 10/20 durability, I would use MMII. But since I don't need reclaim anymore, I'm putting Manipulation in its spot. Just something to think about for my fellow crafters.

Being a GSM yes it's a very handy skill to use. However Manipulation competes for a cross-class slot on other classes - but this depends highly on your rotation and your stats, so my point could be moot if you don't use Inno/Inge2/RS/Reclaim (any 1 or 2 of these), and the amount of CP you need (referring to the minimum # of ToT procs) to actually finish the craft.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I just did a bunch of goldsmith synths, and found myself using 2 manipulations instead of a master's mend II quite often.

Positives:

• it's an extra step, an extra shot at ToT, chance to extend the synth to get in a 3rd CZ
• it's versatile, you don't need to be at 10/20 durability, which can save a step of SHII
• it can keep you from capping out CP if you get a lot of ToT procs early

Negative:

• it costs 16 more CP

When I had SHII wear off at 10/20 durability, I would use MMII. But since I don't need reclaim anymore, I'm putting Manipulation in its spot. Just something to think about for my fellow crafters.

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Really, it's a 16 tp cost, for a 25% to get an extra 4 CP. or a 75% to just lose 16TP.

Unless you are trying to rack up your total step count, I don't really see this as advantageous. If you've been getting lucky with RNG, then great.

I suppose if you are like me, don't don't want to waste SH2 actions, thereby optimizing your CP spent on SH, then for example you use SH2, ToT, HT, TOT, HT, TOT, You are still @ 60 Durability, and no SH2. So you could pop Manipulation, and keep going. I can see how this would be a smart strategy early on in the synth. (Because in order for it to be applicable, you've already gotten a lot of Good procs, and are full on CP anyway or close to, so the CP cost it also protecting you from wasting further good procs)

Interesting. I'll give this some more thought. The more I think about my argument the more I agree with you lol. I wouldn't say as a set rotation, but as I said, aespecially early on in the since if you are blessed with lots of good procs.

BB, INGII, PbP, RS, Inno, Mani, CSII, ToT, CZ, SHII, Hasty

Mani dropped for LTW, WN added to ARM/GSM/ALC/CUL

There's no reason to keep reclaim after you've completed your 4 star books. 4 ToT by step 33 is all you need to get 3 Manipulations off and still have GS>Inno>(CSII fish)/BB.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

Really, it's a 16 tp cost, for a 25% to get an extra 4 CP. or a 75% to just lose 16TP.

Unless you are trying to rack up your total step count, I don't really see this as advantageous. If you've been getting lucky with RNG, then great.

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It's also one less step you need to get that 3rd CZ, one extra step of SHII (using it between SHII up time instead of MMII in the middle), and if you have 3 ToT procs by the time you reach 60 durability you are either using Basic Touch or capped on CP.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

There's no reason to keep reclaim after you've completed your 4 star books.

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Because if you've gone a whole Wootz Bhuj synth and only gotten one good condition, don't bother reclaiming, because it'll fail anyway? *sob*

(this happened)

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

Because if you've gone a whole Wootz Bhuj synth and only gotten one good condition, don't bother reclaiming, because it'll fail anyway? *sob*

(this happened)

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It's all about mass production, make enough mats that you can use all HQ on stuff like the 110 weapons, and spread around the NQ to easier synths. For the rare NQ, slap a few junk materia on it and do a few expert runs to turn it into materia. Loss of materials is always a loss, NQ isn't.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

It's all about mass production, make enough mats that you can use all HQ on stuff like the 110 weapons, and spread around the NQ to easier synths. For the rare NQ, slap a few junk materia on it and do a few expert runs to turn it into materia. Loss of materials is always a loss, NQ isn't.

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Even if you used HQ materials, if you got only one good condition the entire craft, it ain't happening. And you're making a weapon at this point, where it s HQ or gtfo unless its for glamour (which probably is, 110 weapons have lower weapon damage which is the best stat for most classes).

That being said, it's really based on what cards you're dealt with. If you haven't gotten any TotT procs, the increased CP cost is going to hurt you in the long run that an extra tick of CZ won't save you. Not to mention manipulation will compete with other cross skills when you're BSM and LTW.

If in the golden world where I cap my CP before using my second CZ, I'd just pop a basic touch with SHII active.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Even if you used HQ materials, if you got only one good condition the entire craft, it ain't happening. And you're making a weapon at this point, where it s HQ or gtfo unless its for glamour (which probably is, 110 weapons have lower weapon damage which is the best stat for most classes).

That being said, it's really based on what cards you're dealt with. If you haven't gotten any TotT procs, the increased CP cost is going to hurt you in the long run that an extra tick of CZ won't save you. Not to mention manipulation will compete with other cross skills when you're BSM and LTW.

If in the golden world where I cap my CP before using my second CZ, I'd just pop a basic touch with SHII active.

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All HQ mats starts you at ~1500 quality, that's a huge jump. 1 ToT proc is enough to get you a Mani and a MMII, that's 13 tries to land two RS and as many hasties as you can, although it does mean skipping the Innovation at the end. Just landing 8 HT is enough to get you up over 50%. And like I said, spiritbond it if you NQ, or find someone who will.

And like I said above, MMII if SHII wears on 10/20 durability, which it will if you only have 1 ToT proc, either as the first durability gain or the 2nd, so the CP loss would be a moot point.

What extra skill do you have instead of INGII, Reclaim?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

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I've been working with 360~ or so CP up until now, and even then I prefer MMII when I have enough CP to spare it (otherwise, i can do MMII + manip without any ToT procs.

Getting 8 HTs would be enough, yes. However, we're looking at someone that got 1 good condition, that'd at the most would be able to fit MMII and manip for 9 extra steps on top of the 8 starter ones. Put aside 5 steps to finish the craft (assuming he has 453 craftsmanship), you have 12 hasty touches and well... shit can happen. You want to start with all HQ materials when possible, but this isn't the case when you're making the baseline materials like platinum ingot (which can only get 400 starting quality). Assuming worse cases, your highest starting quality would be around 400-600 from the HQ'd 3 star materials.

I take manipulation over ingenuity II. It's still nice to have in the event that you don't have enough CP to spare for MMII and still have enough left over for a BB finisher. But my stance is that it's not something I'd use over MMII when the latter is available.