I'm also just curious about where this hatred for even minute complexity is coming from. Casual players are not struggling with the game. If anything, the source of stress and struggle is coming from people not being able to do certain mechanics that are failing to prog savage. Getting roadblocked by limit cuts, debuff counting, body checks at the end of the encounter, etc... Honestly it's baffling that jobs continue to get simplified when the fights themselves aren't. No one's dying because Samurai had a cone AOE or Dragoon has 1 too many OGCDs in their burst window. Not in savage, not in ultimate, and certainly not in dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
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05-22-2024, 01:14 PMty_taurus
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05-22-2024, 01:23 PMty_taurus
I actually just had a memory of one of my first jobs unlocked a moment ago after typing that. You know what this job design approach reminds me of?
I worked at a Starbucks a long time ago where our manager had this terrible habit of trying to clean up the store's storage areas by throwing away things that we "didn't need" but actually did. Let me give you an example: We had these containers where we kept different powders and toppings like java chips or freeze dried fruit. One day, our manager decided to throw away all the extra containers that we "weren't using" so that we'd have more space in the back to store other things. Okay great, now there's a tiny bit of extra shelf space, but now it's a pain in the ass to clean the containers we were using because we didn't have any backup containers to empty those toppings into. We'd have to empty everything into plastic cups to wash and dry all the containers and refill them rather than just moving them into a clean backup container and washing the others for the next day.
That's what I feel like modern FFXIV job design is. -
05-22-2024, 01:34 PMAravellHonestly, it's bizarre that the dev team is incapable of seeing the very simple truth that more complex job design never held anyone back from clearing anything, it's always been mechanics failure that prevents a clear, and now they're doubling down on even more ways to fail mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Also worth noting that extremely simple jobs means that someone somehow not meeting the extremely easy to hit ceiling is now that much bigger of a burden. We can see it now in dungeons where the healer is idling and doesn't do damage, it makes the dungeon take so much longer because the healer refuses to mash one button. We can also see it in raids, someone not mashing their raid buff off CD every 2 minutes and drifting it will just cause the party's damage to crater.
It would be nice if the dev team would finally realise that the tank doing 20% less damage by not optimising and just camping tank stance is not the reason that party enraged on Thordan EX, it's because that one DPS died on every Knights of the Round mechanic and perpetually had 66% stats down. -
05-22-2024, 06:03 PMArcaviusGreyashe
I might come down as elitist on this one, but I really think you've lost the plot.
Harder jobs mean lesser average dps, except for people that are that much more skilled (The same people that already are a good amount of dps over the average joe, and a great amount of dps over casual players, using "simple" jobs), which means it's harder for average players to not get enraged on. So yeah, more complex job design does hold people back from clearing. Except if we're talking content with no enrage, which I think isn't the case.
We all have different ideas of simple jobs, but I assure you, NIN, BLM, even GNB and so on are not that simple. Honestly, the fact you're talking about "mashing" raid buff and drifting off the 2 minutes indicates you don't know your simple rotation well enough to really perform, and would significantly drop in DPS with a more complex rotation, which would in turn cause more enrages, and would prevent you from clearing as much as hard fights do.
Moreover, and this is subjective, playing a job must be fun, right, but harder mechanics are much more satisfying to clear than having a perfect rotation. I don't mind having more complex jobs, I'm all for harder content really, but trading those for simpler mechanics in raids... Yikes. That really would be a waste. -
05-22-2024, 06:19 PMSupersnow845I think you’ve missed the point, this isn’t so much the rotation should be more complex as in longer or more confusing, it’s that the rotation should have more fail states and this should be compensated by having the encounter design become easierQuote:
Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe
Right now by and large almost all jobs really don’t have a significant fail state outside of drifting your 2 minutes. Things like OOM’ing on a healer or trick not applying the buff because you missed the back positional are just gone. Sure there is many ways to lose DPS outside of reaching a true fail state (such as letting astral fire drop off) but near every expansion they are being made harder to achieve
Meanwhile the encounters have gone way way too far towards “do the dance or blow up
Jobs should be given back some measure of fail state on their rotation that is actually meaningful but in exchange this should be compensated by having the encounters be made slightly easier. “Do the dance or blow up” is so boring compared to something like T8 which had 10,000 ways you could solve it based on your party comp and your consistency at pushing his tower phases -
05-22-2024, 06:27 PMSaraide
A lot of this discussion is about content without enrages actually. Healers should be fun to play when doing roulettes. That privilege shouldnt just go to tanks and healers.
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05-22-2024, 06:39 PMSupersnow845The reddit discussion forums are garbage for thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Saraide
> “WAR shouldn’t be able to ignore the healer”
> “um who cares about casual balance. It’s casual content”
> “me, because all jobs should be fun in all content. Is that really such a foreign concept” -
05-22-2024, 06:41 PMArcaviusGreyashe
Alright, I take back what I said then, I agree on all jobs being fun being a necessity, and you convinced me on the coomplexity part.
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05-22-2024, 07:43 PMAravell
If I had a nickel for everytime someone told me I can't clear content, I'd have 5 nickels. I do so love it when people make assumptions.
Honestly, if average players aren't beating enrage, then that's a sign to practice more and try again. We don't need "hard" fights where anyone can mash 1-2-3 and clear as long as they can do the dance. When was the last time you even saw the enrage in an extreme this expansion? Those fights have a joke of a dps check.
Good game design would have both fight and job gameplay share the load of complexity. Shoving it too far to encounter design would get you Anabaseios, barely an actual dps check but wipes you instantly whenever anyone does something wrong. I don't think we've seen any case where fights are incredibly simple in harder content to make room for job complexity. For example, I wouldn't call O8S and O11S simple fights and the majority of jobs were harder to output high damage back then.
Maybe you can make a case for O1S being an utter joke, but that's more of an exception. -
05-22-2024, 09:09 PMForsakenRoe
I think TOP is a great example of 'taking the stance of 'complexity should come from the encounter, not from the job' to it's logical conclusion'. Take Party Synergy, for example. Doing the 'LPDU strat' (which is intended to make it more PF friendly)I have to:
Line up in two lines from north to south, based on THMR priority
Identify my Playstation marker
Identify if someone on my side has the same marker, the southmost of the pair adjusts and since I'm playing Ranged here that means me if I have a duplicate
Identify which 3 of the 4 Omega Clones are in a line
Identify if the Male has a shield or not (decides if it's in or out from the male)
Identify if the Female has BladeLegs or not (decides it it's 'in line with Female' or 'Cross shaped AOE to dodge')
Position accordingly within about 4 seconds of the clones appearing
Identify where the big eyeball is
Identify whether we have Mid Glitch or Far Glitch
Line up in spread positions to dodge the eye laser, with the formation respecting the Mid/Far debuff (using BPOG as the order from north to south, but if it's Far, the right hand side has to do GOPB)
Identify who has the two stack markers, and if they are on the same side, the southmost stack and their partner need to swap for the next part
Position around the central Female clone, to get knocked back to the safespots, respecting Mid/Far debuff
Finally, once the stack marks go off and the Males all do their funny spin circle AOE, the boss becomes targetable again. Look how much stuff has to be remembered, my PS mark colour, whether I have to swap sides, where the eye is, whether it's Mid/Far, all while doing the rest of the crap thrown at us. Compare that to something like UCOB. In fact, it can be quite easily be compared to something like Quickmarch Trio, since that also forces the players to dodge a 'line AOE through the middle'. However, the lineup for dodging that line AOE can be TMHR every time, the positions don't get randomly chosen. There's no 'adjust because someone on your side has the same symbol'. And the followup mechanics are always the same for each role. Healers get Earthshakers. one DPS gets an Earthshaker, three have to take a Megaflare stack. Tanks have to intercept Tempest Wing tethers. There's much less variance in what is required from each player, allowing them to focus on 'just their thing'. It doesn't matter to a Tank in that fight, which of the four DPS get an Earthshaker, because Earthshakers are not the Tank's 'thing'.
That's the issue with following the road of 'increase the complexity of encounters, and remove complexity from jobs so they're easier to play'. You end up with design like this, where the way they made it 'complex' in TOP is to just say 'sod it, everyone can get every potential position'. That's okay for in certain scenarios, like Limit Cut for example (you can get any of the 8 numbers), but it comes back with Delta, with Sigma, with Omega.
And to make matters worse, let's look at the opposite end of the spectrum, of a Savage fight that is meant to be 'the source of complexity' to re-balance the 'engagement' balance (since the Job doesn't provide much complexity). Take P6S, Hegemone, as an example. Once you know the fight, and you know that the moving spikes that do Plus/Cross AOEs have set formations for each time they appear (allowing you to find the safespot based not on working it out, but by seeing a certain 'thing' and remembering it from there). For example, in this picture:
I know that the X marked AOE tethered by a 'wonky' tether is what to look for, and the safespot will be the tile diagonally 'in' from that X marked AOE. I don't need to see any of the other AOE's positions, only find the 'wonky' tether, then the X attached, then the mechanic is resolved. There's no variance to it, it can be rotated, but you can always use that memorization technique to find the safespot. The rest of the fight also has memory techniques to work out where to stand, and so when you've done the fight a few times, and you're still farming it for something (eg alt Job gear) it is incredibly predictable, and so it's a bland and sluggish fight. It's not got anything interesting going on that brings that 'engagement', and because of that, it doesn't make up for the lack of depth in the Job gameplay.
Here's a metaphor, or an analogy. This is especially relevant to Healers, so let's assume it's a Healer job we're on about. Imagine that, for each player to be 'engaged' and 'having fun', there is a balancing scale. On one side is a weight, unique in size to each player, called Boredom. For one player it might be only 200g, for another player it could be 2000g. Let's take an average player who occasionally does Savages (later once Tome Gear has been obtained), does EX trials with their FC, and caps their tomes each week with EX roulette runs as needed. Their Boredom weight is 1000g. On the other side of the scale, both Job Complexity, and Encounter Complexity, two weights of sizes decided by SE, are applied to weigh that side down, to try and outweigh the Boredom weight. As Job Complexity gets trimmed down over the years by SE, the size of the weight has been also reduced over time. Where it may have been 750g in SB, it is now a mere 250g. Encounter Complexity, therefore, has to be 750g or more to match or outweigh this player's Boredom weight. If the encounter sucks (cough E7S, P6S, P7S, P11S to an extent), then the weight is also small, leading to a small Job weight, a small Encounter weight (say, 300 only because Cachexia exists), and their sub weights are not enough to outweigh the Boredom weight. So, the player ends up bored while doing said encounter.
To remedy this solution, I would propose that Job Complexity be returned, but as a more 'optional' kind of design. For example, where Healers currently have a DOT that is over twice the potency of their filler spell (SCH Broil: 295, Bio: 700), I'd do something more akin to this (taking SCH as an example):
Broil V: 300p
Biolysis: 35p for 30s (total 350p)
Miasmalysis: 1.5s cast time, 20p on cast, then 30p for 24s (total 340p)
Shadowflare: 120p, then 40p for 15s (total 320p)
Missing the refresh timing on a DOT like this would not mean losing '350p' or '320p'. Rather, since the DOT GCD was replaced by a Broil, the loss is 'the difference between Broil and the DOT total potency, divided by {total number of ticks}'. For example, let's say I don't refresh Biolysis for one GCD by accident. I cast Broil there instead. The potency I lost is (320 - 300) / 10, or an average of '2 potency'. This loss is also only a factor if the DOT is present at the end of the fight. If there's a situation where, for example, the fight ends 5s after a Bio refresh should occur, then skipping the application of the DOT is better, since you'd not get the payoff of the DOT before the end of the fight. In that situation, dropping a tick earlier doesn't actually 'lose' you a tick.
With all that said, the skill floor for something like the above is 'press Broil forever', dealing 300p per 2.5s, or 14400p per 2min. The skill ceiling, of refreshing all three DOTs perfectly on time, is 1400 (Bio) + 1700 (Miasma) + 2560 (SF) + 9300 (31 remaining GCDs used on Broil), for a total of 14960. A difference of 560p, across two minutes of gameplay. Less than two Broils.
As such, when it comes to the weights analogy, something like the above turns the Job Complexity weight from a solid weight, into a container. It's up to the player how much they interact with the complexity available to them in their job, (resulting in more or less water in the container), so if they are playing something like an EX roulette, and use their full complexity, it doesn't matter if the Encounter Complexity weight is low, like 100g. Because they're using their full Job toolkit to it's maximum, they've chosen to fill the Job Complexity container to weigh 1500g on it's own, and so it easily outweighs the Boredom weight, even though the Encounter Complexity is low.
Effectively, where we have 'the Encounter Complexity carries the lack of Job Complexity', I think it's much more sensible to have the opposite: 'the Job Complexity (optional) carries the lack of Encounter Complexity'. And to that exact point:
Isn't it interesting that we didn't have this kind of discussion about how 'lack of engagement' etc. when, by all observable metrics, Deltascape was horrendous for it, having both O1S (which was cleared blind on the first pull by some groups, I've heard) and O2S, which was equally monotonous to farm. The saving grace of Deltascape was that it had Halicarnassus, still regarded by some players (including me) to be one of the most well-designed Savage encounters to date. And it didn't do it with debuff vomit, all things considered it was rather simple by today's standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
But anyway, the point I'm trying to get at: Deltascape should have caused just as much 'we're bored, give us more complexity' complaints as we have now. But it didn't, despite having more 'boring to farm' fights than we have now. The main difference, is that back then, our job kits were more 'complex'. Healers had more than one DOT (not you AST), SCH in particular had 2 DOTs, a 60s OGCD DOT in Shadowflare, and a 12s DOT that was instant cast, melee range and, when paired with an Energy Drain, a damage gain. AST had a card system that felt more dynamic, and was much stronger when it hit (5% damage on everyone, once per minute) but much weaker when it didn't (literally nothing because you can't draw Balance/Spear this pull). Stormblood had it's share of issues to address, but 'how many DOTs SCH has' was not one of them.
Rather, the comparative 'uselessness' of the Lilies for WHM should have been addressed, and AST's cards reworked to be less 'swingy' in damage (between 'all the damage' for balance, 'some damage' for spear/arrow, and 'no damage lol' for the others). I'd say the way to do that would be to give all of the cards damage, but the method by which their damage is dealt varies per card (eg Bole is via counterattacking (good for a tank), Arrow via increasing autoattack speed (to not screw up rotations), Spear/Spire as physical/magical damage increases (good for melee/casters), etc.)
The issue of 'casuals can't keep their damage going as a healer' is not addressed by removing all the variety in how to deal damage, because the main reason those casuals 'lose damage' is because they're not pressing damage buttons for whatever reason, be that movement or 'i dont want to deal damage im a healer'. The latter can't really be addressed since it's a mindset, but it also shouldn't be completely catered to design-wise. Rather, let those players who want to 'only heal', only heal, and they can clear any content in the game that doesn't have an enrage timer (so, 90% of the content the game has to offer). Then, to address the movement issues, by having more variety in buttons, shorter durations on DOTs, etc, it allows for more instantcasts throughout the fight that open up movement options.
As an example, let's take those previously listed DOTs for SCH. If I am meant to refresh Biolysis, Miasmalysis and Shadowflare, because it's a 2min window, but 6s into that window I need to move for about 5 seconds without stopping, then instead of just refreshing all 3 DOTs, I could refresh only Miasmalysis (as it has a cast time), then Broil, movement starts, Biolysis, Shadowflare, movement ends, cast Broil again. By delaying the refresh of the DOTs by a GCD, I allow for them to be used as the mobility option, losing much less damage overall (by the previously listed maths, 4p for Shadowflare and 5p for Miasmalysis), compared to the... what is it now, 75? 85? potency lost by using a Ruin 2. -
05-22-2024, 09:30 PMAravellAll things considered, Deltascape wasn't the worst thing. Sure, O1S and O2S weren't great, but O3S and both parts of O4S were great. Then we look at Abyssos, P5S and P8S part 1 were pretty good, but P6S, P7S and P8S part 2 were awful once you learned them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Regarding TOP, we can definitively say that TOP is a complex fight, but is it a well-designed fight? I'm leaning towards "no" from what I've seen of it.
Maybe I'm talking nonsense since I've never been that far into the fight, but from what I've seen, TOP has far too many moving parts in each mechanic, you have to remember so many things and then execute in order (which also explains why some people use 3rd party assist tools to alleviate some of this).
In contrast, my group cleared DSR with no player markers, we just ran a full priority system for the entire fight and we never had to remember as much as just Party Synergy in TOP. I think the most I had to remember in DSR was during Wroth Flames where we have a descending order from wall to mid with white debuff to Hraesvelgr and black debuff to Nidhogg. -
05-22-2024, 10:28 PMGrimGale
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05-23-2024, 12:11 AMty_taurus*Cries in Sage’s never ending bug zapper spam*Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimGale
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05-23-2024, 02:59 AMvetchImagine how much fun you'd be having if Sage had remained true to its nu-Gundam inspiration and you needed to micromanage your funnels, instead of just ripping off the aesthetic and doing nothing with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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05-23-2024, 03:11 AMrawker
I would've been drawn to SGE if the dot animation are the nouliths pewpewing around the target like Protoss Carrier's Interceptors on the enemies affected for its duration.
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05-23-2024, 04:02 AMSomnolenceThis is why "simple" jobs are popular for hard content, because not everybody has mental capacity to handle complex mechanics and complex rotation at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
SE is trying to make this game for everybody. But because different players do different things and expect different difficulty if the job is the same the way they are trying to do this is by making jobs simple and shoving all hard PvE complexity into encounters.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
It is a fact that casual content is way too easy and extreme/savage content becomes easy as well when optimized so there is huge disconnect between what is provided in support job kits and what is actually needed.
No wonder why often healer is sought out role for alliance roulettes - if your co-healer is Medica II enjoyer there is absolutely nothing to do than to spam dps spells and rez some newbie that fails mechs.
The fact that most of healer abilities can become unnecessary is bad design no matter how you look at it. -
05-23-2024, 04:43 AMAsiTsurugiWhile I agree with the general sentiment of this statement, the text quoted as context to this describes a full downtime mechanic where the bosses are untargetable, and all you need to do are the things described in the quote with no attention to dealing damage. That being said, Party Synergy is still one of the more complex mechanics in the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Somnolence
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05-23-2024, 05:55 AMSomnolenceWell, consider this - SMN has around the same amount of DRU/TOP clears than RDM and BLM combined.Quote:
Originally Posted by AsiTsurugi
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05-23-2024, 05:56 AMForsakenRoeRight, but my point is, in the past when we had 'more complexity in jobs', the mechanics of even the hardest fight in the game, UCOB, were not as complex as what we see now. Rather, it is BECAUSE the jobs got simpler for 'accessibility' or 'removing friction' or whatever they want to spin it as, that they had to make up the complexity elsewhere, leading to overdesigned fight mechanics where half of the difficulty is in working out what the heck you're looking at. TOP is an example of following the mantra of 'jobs should be simple, content mechanics should be the source of complexity' to the natural conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Somnolence
Instead, where we had Job:Content ratio of like 25:75 (or as bad as 90:10 in the case of healers), we should have had more like X : (100 - X), where X is 'an amount between 10 and 50, depending on how much the player wants to interact with their job kit'. As an example, on SCH, if a player wants to use zero of their 3 available DOTs in an EX roulette, they would be able to. But if another player wants to micromanage all three plus the Fairy's position plus who the Fairy is casting Embrace on, then they should ALSO be able to, rather than have their skill ceiling dictated to them by SE as it is now.
Really? Because every expansion, they seem to be making changes that are designed to say 'hey players who enjoy tryharding, we're going to be lowering the skill ceiling you enjoy striving to reach, enjoy'. In trying to make it 'for everybody', they're making it exclusionary to those players who want to 'tryhard'. If a game is too hard, it can drive people away. But if a game is too easy, then it can equally drive people away, due to being unfulfilling. What's the point in playing Mario games, for example, if there's no enemies to die to, or pits to fall in?Quote:
Originally Posted by Somnolence
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05-23-2024, 07:46 AMty_taurusDoesn't seem like I'm included in that "everyone" category. Doesn't seem like many others are either. I would love if the game were designed for everyone. That's what is being asked for here: job design that doesn't have to be too hard, but offers room for skill expression and dynamic gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Somnolence
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05-23-2024, 08:35 AMAravellYou know which expansion was actually made for everyone? Stormblood.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
For content, dungeons were still simple back then, alliance raids were a little bit harder, normal raids were decent, savage had some difficult floors, and they introduced ultimate for the first time. Also there's eureka for the people who enjoyed that.
Then the jobs, all of them had a skill ceiling, all of them had something to strive for. We also had a nice spectrum of difficulty from RDM to MCH.
That's a game made to include everyone, not whatever we're getting in DT, which looks like EW 2.0. -
05-23-2024, 08:40 AMty_taurus*Shadowbringers 3.0Quote:
Originally Posted by Aravell
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05-23-2024, 02:25 PMRozeeeEncounter-focused design is just the natural logical conclusion from the game separating the playerbase so rigidly like this. Player X can only do content until ex., player Y can do content until Savage, etc. This system only works until we get to the shared factor which is the job itself. This is honestly one of the main sources of conflict within the playerbase. With that being said, I am utterly confused on why the solution isn't to make the playerbase separate itself by the job they can play, but instead make the jobs so simple and so lacking in differences that job selection hardly matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Somnolence
It's not as if people struggled getting through the MSQ in Stormblood or even Heavensward, so who was the changes for? High-end players didn't mind optimizing the jobs, casuals wouldn't care that much about maximizing their performance. Is it for people who just didn't want to put in the effort yet still feel entitled enough to play every job at a high level? More difficult and punishing mechanics isn't even fun. I still have fun trying to keep melee uptime for the last boss in Dead Ends (the part where Ra-La prances). Could I say the same for my 5th time doing Pangenesis?
I would even go as far as to say, jobs being this simple detracts my enjoyment of the encounters itself. I think Living Liquid in TEA is a well-designed phase that still holds up today (as a healer), but my kit is so aggresively unfun that I can't even appreciate that design, just wondering when I can finally be done with this so I don't have to press 1 anymore. -
05-23-2024, 06:47 PMMoqiBecause SE refuses to unlock glamour and people want the aesthetic of a job without wanting to learn how to play it. And I'm being 100% serious with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rozeee
And the thing is, we HAD systems to make jobs more difficult for players who wanted to push themselves in harder content but weren't mandatory for casual content like cleric stance, tank stances and positionals... and they took them away. -
05-23-2024, 07:04 PMSomnolenceIt is interesting that this design shift after Stormblood is very clear in Deep Dungeon design. PotD/HoH mobs on higher floors hurt even with their autos (and some are way too spooky to fight for non-tanks) yet they are mechanically simple. This design forces jobs to use all their kit including ranged slows/roots when soloing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rozeee
Meanwhile in EO mobs don't hurt much but mechanics are overall more complicated and have lots of one-shots. -
05-23-2024, 07:20 PMSupersnow845That’s because the deep dungeon design has shifted over time to actively encourage solo runsQuote:
Originally Posted by Somnolence
Palace on launch was widely considered to be unsoloable to the point that when it was cleared the devs actually went “oh wow we weren’t expecting that” then they had to retroactively add a title for the achievement
Even to this day with power creep necromancer is still a nightmare because of the void floors being designed around a light party
These days comparatively EO is designed around the solo challenge so they remove things like forced kiting with constant potions up to avoid auto damage and substitute for complex mechanics they expect you to remember
Your point is still totally correct though, it is a microcosm of the design shift of the game but deep dungeons so have specific interesting reasons why they do it -
05-23-2024, 09:59 PMZadoodHoly moly, you does raise a good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moqi
But then, this claim doesn't really hold up, as you are pretty much suggesting that DRK did reduce the number of bad SAM player due DRK can glam like a bonafide SAM, with skill action animation also somewhat matched a SAM's at that.
Which... highly unlikely, but at the same I lacked data, evident and proof to back it -
05-24-2024, 07:12 AMMaltothoris
It is funny about the deep dungeons cause potd is still the harder one cause it keeps constant pressure on people and this coming from someone who cleared all 3 solo, 2 as war and 1 as mch.
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05-24-2024, 05:12 PMSomnolenceI dislike shift from damage mitigation to mechanics since mechanic failures are binary and role agnostic. This is also the criticism for TOP and why no-healer challenge was possible at all - not enough role specific mechs/responsibilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
Softening trinity requirements but leaving old trinity kit for healer is the reason we have this situation.
8-man content can be solo-healed by single healer with current bloated kits, potencies on skills are enough for this, primary reason this is not done is because it concentrates point of failure and without coordination MP and GCD efficiency is a concern. But it is ironic how solo-heal challenge is the only way for healers to play the job as befitting the role fantasy. -
05-24-2024, 06:11 PMSaraideTo me this is the core of the problem. I'd rather have SE decide on one approach: go all in on the trinity or ditch it entirely. The current half measured approach just gives us the worst of both worlds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Somnolence
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05-24-2024, 09:00 PMZadood
You know, I been wondering, instead of creating contents for healer...
Why not make most of High End Hardcore content to be "Salvageable" by Healers?
I know some folks might against the idea of High End Hardcore content being make easier because unsalvageable High End Hardcore content is best way to retain the "prestige" of legend title value and gatekeep it from "weaker" player.
But isn't that's the whole point of getting good with your class?
When both Tank and DPS are really good with their job, it make a lot of High End Hardcore content became easier, but at the cost of Healers' Role validity to the party.
High End Hardcore content became salvageable and likely clearable because Healers are good at their job.
It's NOT something be to scorn off or be dismissive about it.
If a little "nerf" to the High End Hardcore content can bring back the validity of Healers, it's something worth to trade off if you ask me.
Especially if Healer role can't really shine at all in a extremely well condinated teams, so why not make Healer role shine in a less ideal team? -
05-24-2024, 10:37 PMSomnolenceWell, player failure increasing burden on healers can lead to toxicity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zadood
This is why hardest content has damage downs instead of vulns, since then player failing a mech only results in enrage check being harder but healers don't have to do anything extra. -
05-25-2024, 12:08 AMOgruMogruI wish they would! Past approaches to savage meant that the fight encounters were indeed designed to be more salvageable. It's been ShB and EW that have been the worst for snubbing healer recovery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zadood
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05-25-2024, 12:16 AMSupersnow845Even ShB wasn’t really that bad, EW’s propensity for debuff vomit that kills everyone upon one person’s death are really only present in Gaia and even on her It’s more intermediate will always resolve wrong without movement but not so much “all debuffs will be released upon death killing everyone” that EW has favouredQuote:
Originally Posted by OgruMogru
There was a lot of times when someone died in junction titan for example that everyone could organise their debuffs around the dead persons debuff and resolve the mechanic correctly. Same as like a dead body didn’t attract the shadow keepers orbs and if a tank died a DPS could sacrifice themselves to take a tank orb because the remaining DPS and a healer could survive the orb meant for 3 -
05-25-2024, 12:19 AMOgruMogruAgreed! just worried If i didn't mention Shb it would get brought up eventually XPQuote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
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05-25-2024, 01:21 AMSieyaMIn ARR if you were running with a group and didn't use cleric stance as a healer you were either ridiculed or kicked, it was not optional.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moqi
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05-25-2024, 03:25 AMty_taurusAbsolutely bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by SieyaM
First of all, not DPSing was far more common in ARR particularly because most players just assumed it wouldn't be worth the effort. It took a long time for healer DPS actually being powerful to become public knowledge. And even then, if you were trying to do coils, people valued slower, safer clears because we didn't have hard enrage timers like we do currently.
Don't believe me? World first clear of Coil 12, WHM POV. Healer DPS a part of even ARR healer design, but it was far more optional.
Criticism of healers not DPSing got stronger moreso in Heavensward, but primarily for one reason: people were tired of healers who had everything under control and needed no healing standing around and doing nothing for most of the fight. That what was being criticized and considered to be a form of griefing. -
05-25-2024, 06:07 AMSieyaMThis isn't about world first clears of the hardest content at the time, this is about running dungeons and alliance raids. But the fact that you use that as the metric by which all other aspects of the game should be played does show that things that happen in these world first and raiding groups bleeds into all content, and people expect players in all content to be reaching for that level of play.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
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05-25-2024, 06:11 AMMoomba33
Yeah I was a nervous healer back in ARR/early HW and basically only used Cleric to apply/reapply my dots and never got kicked. This all for DF level content, I never attempted healing Coil.
All anecdotal experience of course, but I can say that low/no dps healers were more common in those older days. I personally only remember encountering two zero dps healers in Endwalker. Both in Eden Leviathan strangely enough. -
05-25-2024, 06:13 AMty_taurusI used it as a metric to show that not even the hardcore players who care about performance and optimization cared that their healers were maximizing DPS output. You think some mook in your random dungeon run gave half a shit if you were DPSing? As someone who learned how healing worked in ARR because I was actually there, I'm telling you that you're no where even close to being truthful about ARR DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by SieyaM
One random asshole in Stone Vigil 10 years ago: "You know you can use Cleric Stance in dungeons, right?"
Coming to you from Fox News: This just in, healers who failed to reach 80% DPS uptime or more during A Realm Reborn dungeons were kicked from parties, ridiculed, and doxed online. More totally accurate healer news at 11.