Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

I think I'm one of the few that is glad to see every one of these people switch jobs. If poor dps is keeping any party from winning, I assure you it's not because of the 1 drg unless they are bad at their job at which case please switch to NIN to help boost your sub-par dps. Mantra has never saved a raid I've been in, ever, and if it does for any other groups it was because everyone was getting hit by things they shouldn't. Have fun trying to get into pugs that already have their NIN spots filled.

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Originally Posted by Bushido_Brown

I think I'm one of the few that is glad to see every one of these people switch jobs. If poor dps is keeping any party from winning, I assure you it's not because of the 1 drg unless they are bad at their job at which case please switch to NIN to help boost your sub-par dps. Mantra has never saved a raid I've been in, ever, and if it does for any other groups it was because everyone was getting hit by things they shouldn't. Have fun trying to get into pugs that already have their NIN spots filled.

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have you noticed that both groups that beat the t13 enrage ran double monk?

dps disparities are more noticeable when you're undergeared for content and on the forefront of progression. I never said that DRG wasn't viable as the dps different isn't that big but it's still there and there's just no benefits to it. Yes, if you go in t10 or t13 a month later with like i120 and i130 weapons then yeah, it doesn't matter what class you have.

I have 4 pentamelded crafted pieces, and I'm maxing damage how ever possible and enrage is still an issue.

Once again, mantra and dragonkick debuff doesn't save raids usually but it saves the healer mana and helps. It's also way more noticeable when you're pushing progression than when you're i120 with an extra 1k hp or something.

I mean, even if you could beat all the current content as a DRG which it probably is possible, there's no still actual benefits in going as a DRG over monk or ninja as you do less damage, take more damage and have zero utility. Disembowel doesn't count as utility, it's a straight dps buff which still puts us below the other 2 melees.

I been maining DRG since 2.0 and the reason I still play it is because I enjoy it even though I know that going monk or ninja will benefit my group more in every single way.

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

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Think back when we were running through your hunting log while leveling up a class, we all tried to kill that beast at the bottom of the list that was 10 levels above us, right? :p

Its great to see people beating the new content within the first week of release, but I'm not in a hurry, I never bother with spending my gil or time on overmelded craft gear since its worthless once i get a loot drop to replace it, but different strokes for different folks.

Typically, the issue with a particular instance in the beginning is that we're still learning the mechanics, then once they become muscle-memory we are able to maximize our dps (not talking about parsing for 3 minutes to get some crazy 500000000dps result that doesn't mean anything for a fight that's over 10 minutes other than to brag about fully buffed DPS that discounts skill and potion CDs).

People will always try to hop the meta by crunching optimal numbers, and it's fine to do that if that's the kind of player you want to be. But in truth is has next to no impact on the actual game play execution. It's simply a matter of comfort picks in this case. In no way did the worlds first achive so on the merits of having a 2 monk setup. They did so due to dedication and quick adjustments.

Though it seems the field of those actually competing for 'world firsts' is actually getting quite a bit more narrow. It's beginning to attract the highly-aggressive crowd which is turning a lot of groups off to the idea.

One advantage I think DRG did have over MNK was the ramp up time. Dungeons are rather irrelevant as far as progression goes, but I still prefer running them on DRG, by the time you get GL3 the mob is dead and you lose it going into the next pull, which just annoys me. That's really not much of an advantage at all which is pretty sad. I'm just taking my time leveling Ninja, not sure if I will main it or not, hell all I'll need is a weapon and it will pretty much be 110 since it shares the MNK gear which has already passed my DRG. Oh well.. /cheers to memories lol

hmm any1 got numbers from their t10 and t11 i got 420 and 430 working on t12 thats without crafted gear as well

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Originally Posted by Bushido_Brown

I think I'm one of the few that is glad to see every one of these people switch jobs. If poor dps is keeping any party from winning, I assure you it's not because of the 1 drg unless they are bad at their job at which case please switch to NIN to help boost your sub-par dps. .

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I played Dragoon for a long time and I consider myself one of the top dragoons. This has nothing to do with dragoon isnt enough dps or not good enough. It about progression. I play to raid, right now MNK/NIN out class dragoon in ever way. The utility+DPS they offer is far past what dragoon brings to the table for progression raid groups. When dragoons get the love they deserve ill switch back but for now Monk brings so much more to progression than dragoon especially for single melee groups like mine. So get outta here with this sub par dps bullshit lol not even going comment on the difference in the 2 mantras.

DRGs just need positional potency bonus on TT - VT - FT and an increase in jump potency to make it competitive (might as well overthrow MNK dps)

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Originally Posted by Empressia

DRGs just need positional potency bonus on TT - VT - FT and an increase in jump potency to make it competitive (might as well overthrow MNK dps)

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Unless the developers give DRG some form of non-DPS raid buff, like Disembowel reducing STR/INT, basically the only way to balance it is to make the total DPS DRG + BRD noticeably above MNK's solo contribution, and somewhere along the contribution of what MNK buffed by MNK brings. So in essence, DRG's total contribution from existing has to bring the equivalent of 530+ in 2.38 BiS, or else it will be worse than MNK in any fight MNK isn't consistently dropping GL3.

DRG's contribution has to smash one MNK's contribution in the ground, basically. It's the only way to justify bringing DRG + MNK over MNK + MNK (in most fights, there are some fights in the game presently where DRG can stand up to MNK but they're largely outdated fights), or else they'd have to change how Dragon Kick works. Luckily, if say DRG = 530 DPS because of BRD, it'd discourage DRG stacking due to Disembowel's nature, and you would be able to have any combo of MNK + DRG + NIN in any order without a large loss.

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Originally Posted by Empressia

DRGs just need positional potency bonus on TT - VT - FT and an increase in jump potency to make it competitive (might as well overthrow MNK dps)

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If anything then make DPS buff non-positional, we already have enough of a hassle with positionals.

There was an argument in my FC tonight over NIN vs DRG and we had someone insisting that 10% buff to a very strong bard at all times beats out the 10% buff every minute and the utility of goad. I don't have any numbers to back up a claim one way or another, so I'm curious as to what y'all who have done testing think.

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Originally Posted by SolarMisae

There was an argument in my FC tonight over NIN vs DRG and we had someone insisting that 10% buff to a very strong bard at all times beats out the 10% buff every minute and the utility of goad. I don't have any numbers to back up a claim one way or another, so I'm curious as to what y'all who have done testing think.

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I'm just afraid that whatever miniscule advantage the Disembowel Debuff to a strong bard might have over the Ninja's 10% group DPS buff for 10 out of 60 seconds (if there is any advantage at all, just going of your assumptions here), it won't be enough to catch up the obvious DPS difference between the NIN and the DRG himself.

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Originally Posted by SolarMisae

There was an argument in my FC tonight over NIN vs DRG and we had someone insisting that 10% buff to a very strong bard at all times beats out the 10% buff every minute and the utility of goad. I don't have any numbers to back up a claim one way or another, so I'm curious as to what y'all who have done testing think.

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Keep in mind that Disembowel does not effect all of bard's damage dealing abilities so it's not a straight 10% buff for them while the 10% damage increase for 10 seconds from ninja is for all attacks that are initiated during that 10 seconds. So whatever DOTs are refreshed during that 10 seconds will carry the 10% buff for it's duration something that Disembowel, Dragon Kick, and Dancing Edge/Storm's Eye don't do.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

I played Dragoon for a long time ...

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I have to say.... this, along with the posts from ricky, sleigh and others have really, really depressed me (in regards to this game of course). I've lurked this thread for a while, and drawn inspiration from the work you and others here have done; it has restored my belief in dragoon as a viable job whenever that belief has wavered, and i would give this thread and your work tremendous credit in me being one of, if not the the, top dps'ers in my static.

I cannot fault the reasons you and others have given for your switch, and begrudgingly, it is becoming more and more apparant that i will have to do the same. I simply cannot gimp my static and prevent progression by playing a job that, as it is becoming increasingly clear, will hinder our progression.

My only question; has anyone raised this concern with SquareEnix, the dev team, or Yoshi? I remember back when Warrior was found to be a gimp tank for endgame, they buffed the class in 2.2 to make it viable. Yet here we are in 2.4, Dragoons are gimped on jump roots, overall dps even if rotation and positionals are hit perfectly, and horrid, horrid mdef that results in ridiculous damage (i remember losing 6k in health and dying on a REX run where a blm ran into my thunderstruck with his). Dragoon is a gimp job for endgame, and given how quick the dev team have been in the past to address balance issues I am somewhat astounded that they have failed to address the weakness of the Dragoon job.

I really love this game; I really love the dragoon job. But I do not want to play that job, and to be honest, i will not want to play this game, if that job, the one that i feel the most affinity for, that i play the best, is going to remain an endgame progression joke, a drain on the rest of the team. I'm not saying this to make an ultimatum, its just how i really feel, and i cannot be alone on this.

Has anyone heard any feedback from the dev team that they will address this?

I honestly advise any DRG to just play MNK as well. If you're dedicated enough, play NIN and maybe BRD too. If this was a game where you couldn't change your job and DRGs were just statistically inferior, you'd have a problem. Right now you don't (well, you do but it's not un-fixable). Unless you bought a piece of DRG left side already, your accessories all transfer to MNK and i110 leftside is easily farmable now.

Our dedicated melee guy in our coil group swaps between DRG and MNK depending on his mood, and often goes DRG for learning and MNK for when he's got it learned.

I think if this topic: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...30#post2565230 Keeps going, maybe they'll give some form of response, but I doubt they read here. But yeah, Hak, Yan, Sleigh etc, all make valid points.

i'm doing the same: the issue is, the other melee in our group is a monk/ninja as well. there's a weekly lockout on coil gear, meaning only one drop between the both of us, and a weekly restriction on poetics gear; meaning i will not be able to gear up dragoon if i choose to gear up ninja for final coil. I'm probably going to circumvent this by having nin on an alt.

after 2.5 the above likely won't be an issue, but if Yoshi and co. are content to let Dragoon remain a gimp job for endgame progression, i would think more and more players would just abandon the job and simply just play nin/mnk full time.

I find the idea that the dev team are aware of how gimped Dragoons are and are content to allow them to remain this way maddening. What is the point in having a job that is simply just not viable for endgame progression?

It's viable. It's just not optimal. Most groups progressing in Final Coil are not Lucrezia or DnT. They're going to be significantly better geared by the time they get to the later turns eventually. So the disparity between a good DRG and a good MNK, while it'll still be there, won't be a big deal. MNK+MNK is/was one of the best things you could bring DPS-wise and it didn't really make everyone bring it to everything in pickups (partially for loot reasons I imagine) or statics.

Redundant.

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

What is the point in having a job that is simply just not viable for endgame progression?

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honestly, it's viable for endgame progression but like.. just not as good. I will end up killing t13 on drg since I won't have time to level/gear another class until it's down and killed t10-t12 with drg fine. The problems are that during progression, a lot of mechanics force me to skip positionals since I don't know the timing on skills. I take a lot more damage from magic aoes like megaflare, tetraflare, twisters etc. We really miss the dragonkick debuff which is actually a big deal when you're undergeared and mantras nice too. Likewise, the 10% damage increase is better for adds than "drg burst", goad is nice and ninjas don't really require positionals or take more damage from aoe.

Unless you're hoping to kill t13 this week, I think that by the time you get to it, there really won't be that much of a difference between DRG and other classes that you could if you want, play the class you want.

Please enjoy this (satire)

Dragoon
We're hearing a lot of talk saying that Dragoon is weak compared to Monk and Ninja, but there are a couple of points I'd like to go over, so I'll go over them one by one.

First, I'd like to talk about the boss monsters in the Second and Final Coils of Bahamut. We designed them so that Dragoons would not be the optimal melee DPS even when they have buffs stacked; however, at the moment only Monk and Ninja are able to do enough damage through a method we had not thought of. Our original vision for this was that players would clear these encounters by properly stacking Ninjas and Monks or go with all ranged parties before it got to the point where players were saying "loldrg".

Since this is content that has already been released and strategies have already been established, we won't be making adjustments to these encounters. Instead we'll be looking into making adjustments to Dragoon so they can DPS this like Monk and Ninja are able to.

Next is the matter of dragoons Magic Defense. Unlike the other jobs magic defense, which is tied to their inferior cloth and leather armors, Dragoon can die at any time to a large magic-based AOE, which helps maintain their "loldrg" perception. However, there are times when you need healers to shield you consecutively, the timing is difficult due to the enormous responsibility healers are already burdened with in keeping the tanks and rest of the party alive. Because of this, it would seem that players have a negative impression of Dragoon's magic defense. We'll be making adjustments in patch 2.5 so that Dragoon's magic defense is more suitable for these types of encounters, which should help address the disparity between Dragoons and other DPS jobs.

There's also the matter of raid utility and the use of jumps. I believe that a lot of players are using jumps to output a larger amount of damage, but after using jumps on cooldown, players receive a surprise animation lock that limits their mobility and can cause instant death. So instead of using jump right after it comes off cooldown, I think it would be better to wait for a white mage or scholar to stoneskin and adloquium you before performing jumps.

In addition to the damage bonus, Blood for Blood has other benefits as well. For example, while Dragoon certainly has high vitality and HP, we've worked to balance them with other melee jobs based on the amount of damage they take and the amount of HP they'll have after a large attack. However, we've made these adjustments bearing in mind that Dragoons might have Blood for Blood active. This is what makes the job difficult to use effectively. Using Blood for Blood greatly increases damage received, which makes it difficult to use Jumps right after a combo, and then self-heal back up with the following combo. With that said, from a healer's perspective, although Dragoons can heal themselves right after taking some damage, once they use Life Surge and Bloodbath they are extremely vulnerable for 75% of the encounter, giving the impression that they lack defense.

These are a few of the factors contributing to the problems we've seen with Dragoon. While we'd like you all to continue experimenting with uses for Blood for Blood and Life Surge until patch 2.5, we feel effective use of this skill is a bit difficult, so we'll be making adjustments in patch 2.45. There are several other aspects of the job that will be adjusted, but rest assured that Dragoon will become stronger come next patch.

Look forward to it!

I'm returning to the game, my main is typically Dragoon but seeing all these posts, it makes me want to just start leveling MNK.
I have WAR & PLD on the side, they are geared, but no where near worthwhile to tank jack skittles...

Sad to see dragoon is in the dirt again for sure, I can see the reasoning behind it, and the logic behind people who are stating it's just not a worthwhile job to slot into the fights that matter.

Hopefully it will be re-worked, it's funny though considering the upcoming expansion has all of that dragoon flair considering people probably won't even touch that content with dragoon at this rate... Maybe they're bringing back the dragoon x6 parties from FFXI back.

<_<;

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

honestly, it's viable for endgame progression but like.. just not as good. I will end up killing t13 on drg since I won't have time to level/gear another class until it's down and killed t10-t12 with drg fine. The problems are that during progression, a lot of mechanics force me to skip positionals since I don't know the timing on skills. I take a lot more damage from magic aoes like megaflare, tetraflare, twisters etc. We really miss the dragonkick debuff which is actually a big deal when you're undergeared and mantras nice too. Likewise, the 10% damage increase is better for adds than "drg burst", goad is nice and ninjas don't really require positionals or take more damage from aoe.

Unless you're hoping to kill t13 this week, I think that by the time you get to it, there really won't be that much of a difference between DRG and other classes that you could if you want, play the class you want.

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thank you for that ricky, i appreciate you taking the time to address my concerns on the matter. I am relieved to know that they are still viable, as will be rolling dragoon in final coil, at least until my ninja is up to scratch; the idea that my static would not be able to progress because they were handicapped by having a dragoon in their party was…. unsettling.

The rest of your post strengthens my current opinion that dragoon is a gimp dps next to ninja and monk, but i've said more than enough about that, so i'll not say any more.

Thank you for the reassurance, its appreciated.

I'm a healer at heart but I have Dragoon to the side
Here is my two cents.

All jumps should get 25-50 potency added to it.

Elusive jump doesn't feel "elusive". For starters all jumps minus the standard jump got a time reduction. Why not Elusive jump? What would be so broken about it? Decrease time from 180 to 90-120. Secondly, remove the enmity reduction and give the ability to elude ground based AOE's that are avoidable ( anything that has a ground marker like Landslide, Acid rain etc).

If they do this dragoons wont have to worry ALL THE TIME about jumping at the wrong time and getting destroyed buy avoidable aoe's because most of them are magic based. Just use elusive jump and you're SAFE

I'm half on half about this next topic. I personally don't think they need it but they are the only class in the game that doesn't have one and BLM too. A utility buff that benefits EVERYONE, this will be up in the air for discussion. I say 15 second buff that increases critical hit.

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Originally Posted by melflomil

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Enmity reduction is needed! If I do anything in DF I grab aggro 100% sure.

I have been working on t13 since the end of first reset and have to agree 100% with what Ricky said, t13 is not great for drg with the incoming magic dmg with low gear but it is do able, however my group hasn't had to work on beating the enrage just yet so it's still questionable.

It's a real shame as I have been drg main since 1.0 but I think I will be changing main to ninja come next patch if nothing changes. There is just no place for drg in its current state unfortunately.

I have considered changing now but I won't have it ready by the time my group beats t13, I also will be getting upgraded ironworks spears next tuesday reset so changing mains will be hard right now.

A simple buff to drg which I personally would like to see and is sort of in line with the last buff:
Decrease the cooldown on Jump from 40 sec to 30 sec.

This easy change would increase dps by a nice enough amount for drg to stay relevant, it would also make power surge recast time make more sense.

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Originally Posted by pompey_dan

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I see. Something HAS to give for dragoon, I love this job. :< Oh well. I'm making my transition to ninja right now but will hop right back to dragoon if they give us something to make us relevant again.

4 groups killed t13 so far

3 groups of double monks

and a group with a single monk

(((￣へ￣井)

Has anybody checked to see what the caps are for Kirimu Breeches of Maiming?

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Originally Posted by Gray_Null

Has anybody checked to see what the caps are for Kirimu Breeches of Maiming?

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same for any i110 main left piece

relevant parts is 29 det 41 crit

do meld a det 4 then crit the rest.

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

4 groups killed t13 so far

3 groups of double monks

and a group with a single monk

(((￣へ￣井)

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*heavy sigh*

They'll fix us in the next patch, right guys...?

....right?

:<

Hello Guys, Not in the same boat as you seeing DRG as crap for endgame.
But probably will see it once I get past T10.

Anyway, my reason for writing in this thread is T9..
Now I have 6 clears and I have an apparently DPS problem, which I would like to fix.
on T10 I can easily sustain 370+ at the final phase.
Now on T9... 284 was my number yesterday.
I'm not satisfied with that, and neither is a group of friends, they can all surpasse 300 and yet I can't

So for Phase 1
I use the 24 skill rotation as much as I can, hell I even "dodge" the beam to keep pushing more dps.
In other words, I keep HT, CT and Phle up all time while doing combo in between with B4B and IR as well as jumps.
Known number: 361

Now Phase 2
i start using Phle and then HT > IP > Dis > CT and then regular combo to kill the first golem with everything I have, B4B and IR included aswell as MS.
2nd Golem, same as first. 3rd golem, same. But I have reconsidered the 3rd to just get HT up if it's running out then hit combo dep. on it's HP.
Known number: below 300

Phase 3
Same as P1, I do everything to follow the 24 rotation, and I don't have any issues keeping that up, only time I reconsider my position is super nova so it's not to close to boss or MT.
Known number: 301

Phase 4
Same as P1 and P3, I try and keep everything up and running full time while dishing out damage, I'll admit I have timed B4B badly a few times, but all that movement after the 1st fire in is just where I start to lose grip slighty and lose my dots. I have gotten better at reapplying them in time and keep times up all time, except the "uneven" numbered divebombs.
Known number: I don't

Things to note, the known numbers are with the 110 gear set (look below)
I use black truffles, I use X-potion on P1 and P3 opener, on P4 I pop it a 3rd time if possible. I use potent poisen at the same times as X-potion, so 3 times in total if I pop at P4.

My current gear set. 107.
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/ODXM

My "possible" 110 set which I refrain to use since I lose 43 Crit hit (8.772 str) vs a 9 str and 51 skill speed gain.
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/ODXO

And my planned 112 set if I could get those the freaking drops from Coil 2
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OBP0

So the question is, am I doing something wrong? Is it the 16 str difference (107 vs 112) I miss? Or just not playing it optimal on T9?

Any feedback/critic would be very welcomed.
Teach me if I've done something goofed or just bad stuff

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Originally Posted by Griever_Zero

Any feedback/critic would be very welcomed.
Teach me if I've done something goofed or just bad stuff

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First I want to say I'm not going to give an in depth response. I don't have time for that at the moment, but you need to get out of that i90 gear. Soldiery is uncapped now there are no reasons to have i90 gear. Also you're way over accuracy for t9 with that first set. If I recall 491/492 is t9 flank accuracy.

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Originally Posted by FantasyForever

Soldiery is uncapped now there are no reasons to have i90 gear.

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I have all the soldiery gear just not all at 110 vers. (look at the 110 gearset)
But I'm well aware about the 90 things have to go, and that's why I'm trying to get the Neck, Head and belt from Coil 2 (look at the 112 set)

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Originally Posted by FantasyForever

Also you're way over accuracy for t9 with that first set. If I recall 491/492 is t9 flank accuracy.

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True, I'll admit my acc is slighty overkill. But on the P4 I'm very often in front of the boss until we split for super nova, so that's why I go for the tank acc cap instead, sure might be overkill. But I'm open to change this, but it requires the thunder guy isn't nowhere near me so I don't risk getting one-shot.

Anyone find that the decrease in jump cooldown is throwing the rotation (and sync with Power surge) for a loop?

That's your problem right there. My highest parse on t9 was 343 over a 9ish minute T9. A lot of that damage comes from P4. You should be hitting positionals in P4 until the first fire goes out, then weaving in positionals in between elementals. You can get a heavy thrust off in between lightning and fire, same for impulse drive so that you can finish the rest of the combo safely from elementals. It's all about getting comfortable with that last phase so that you're not just full thrust spamming from the front. Also, in the first page of this thread, I think the guide says that HT>ID>Dis>TT>VT>FT is more potent than just full thrust combo so I would try that on at least the first golem and then full thrust combo the rest if they're too low on health to finish off the combo above.

Hope this helps!

Changed my wording reg. golems, I use Phle > HT > full CT combo > then FT Combo.
But as you point out it might be an idea to skip CT and just hit Dis.

For P4, I'll get working on that, as said 6 kills, not fully comfortable at P4 completely yet.
But many thanks for the feedback!

Did anyone do any math if there'd be any changes to the stat weights?

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Originally Posted by SolarMisae

*heavy sigh*

They'll fix us in the next patch, right guys...?

....right?

:<

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Hi All,

I'd encourage all DRGs and players in favor of better balancing to bump / vote in this thread on the General Forums. Seems the person who started the thread made a great Opening Statement.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...21#post2567921


Hopefully the Dev Team sees it and we get fixes.

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Originally Posted by Griever_Zero

Hello Guys, Not in the same boat as you seeing DRG as crap for endgame.
But probably will see it once I get past T10.

My current gear set. 107.
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/ODXM

My "possible" 110 set which I refrain to use since I lose 43 Crit hit (8.772 str) vs a 9 str and 51 skill speed gain.
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/ODXO

And my planned 112 set if I could get those the freaking drops from Coil 2
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OBP0

So the question is, am I doing something wrong? Is it the 16 str difference (107 vs 112) I miss? Or just not playing it optimal on T9?

Any feedback/critic would be very welcomed.
Teach me if I've done something goofed or just bad stuff

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Never underestimate STR, 1 STR = roughly 3 Det or 4 Crit (i did my own parsings not just blindly taking these from known stat weights)

Fixed your gear set without SCOB Gear here:
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/OED6

Like they said, absolutely no reason for you not to Soldiery Gear since it's open farm now.