What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

The whole bit about the second legion just being...gone made me go "what" because the notion of an army of their caliber being laid low by terminus beasts seems...silly when even Thavnair with its considerably weaker military was largely able to keep them in check without the aid of the Scions. It's giving me doubts that the remaining Garlean legions are going to end up playing into much of anything if they willing to just write off a legion with ties to House Darnus like that.

It is also mentioned that there were no more confirmed reports of blasphemies so I'd like to think they're not truly done and dusted, especially since communications with the regions occupied by the Garlean legions was limited and there logically isn't much keeping new ones from manifesting if the corrupted dynamis is still lingering on Etheriys for the foreseeable future.

I had a crazy thought that maybe the two elements could end up being woven together into a single threat if some defiant legions found a way to weaponize the blasphemies by deliberately instigating transformations then controlling them with magitek or more mundanely just letting them loose in regions they consider a threat; perhaps finding a method to trigger transformations remotely and at will using auracite or some such. That's probably being overly optimistic considering their seeming desire to just get the Garlean business over with for good, though.

It seems like Yoshi-P couldn't be done with the Ancients and Garlemald fast enough and it's frustrating. Combine that with flashbacks to the LL Q&A where the message I got was not to think about the story too much and it just takes what little wind was left out of my sails.

Is it confirmed the "junior writers" worked on 6.1? Because I am not a fan of the comical angle they're taking with the characters. Estinien being the butt of jokes in 6.0 was bad enough, but now we've got Aymeric in an elephant suit, Y'shtola going full on anime, etc.

Silver lining, maybe this signals the decoupling of narrative from gameplay. Also, sidenote, why did the Garleans still employ melee when they had tech for multiple shot, metallic cartridge ranged weaponry they could've just madd producted? Just seemed dumb, and this is going back to ARR.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

It seems like Yoshi-P couldn't be done with the Ancients and Garlemald fast enough and it's frustrating. Combine that with flashbacks to the LL Q&A where the message I got was not to think about the story too much and it just takes what little wind was left out of my sails.

Is it confirmed the "junior writers" worked on 6.1? Because I am not a fan of the comical angle they're taking with the characters. Estinien being the butt of jokes in 6.0 was bad enough, but now we've got Aymeric in an elephant suit, Y'shtola going full on anime, etc.

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She mentioned it here. I thought this trend already started with the G'raha sparkle-eyes but it seems to be something they want to stick with...

IIRC, almost all of the Ceruleum supplies were gone. There was only one group left that still had the skill and knowledge to mine and process it, and they are a group of bottom-caste who are so bitter towards whatever treatment they got from the Garleans that they refuse to work with them.

We're never told exactly what caused the collapse of the IInd Legion, but failed logistics are what destroys most armies, no matter how powerful.

As for the jokes, unfortunately the mature/dirty humour of ARR is being quietly removed...much in the same way as how Blizzard decided to censor anything even a little racy.

My guess is that the company is going to continue to gaslight and retcon things and pretend as if the game always lacked the nuance and grey morality that drew many players into the setting during ARR and HW.

Some of the 'humour' in recent content patches has consisted of such childish antics that I'd feel embarrassed having someone watch me play.

Well, my current thought process is this: The 13th is essentially the result of a Flood of Darkness, right? So, shouldn't that mean the whole star is a dark version of The Empty on the First? Even if we do manage to restore the 13th, what purpose would that serve (and what would that mean for the RPR job)? It'd be years before it was inhabitable again (noting that Yoshi-P is loathe to commit to any significant passage of time). Assuming we figure out a way to reverse being voidsent they couldn't feasibly live there any more than anyone on the First can currently stay in The Empty.

Also, I'm not a fan of the idea that the sundered can manage a way to undo in a short period of time what neither the Ascians or Hydaelyn could figure out in 10k years. While it probably won't happen for obvious reasons, I'd love to see a recount of events on the 13th showing Hydaelyn having abandoned them to their fate while, conversely, Elidibus tried to save as many as he could. Feel free to refresh my memory, but I don't recall Unukalhai or Cylva commenting that they had any "divine" assistance against the coming doom and, unlike the Flood of Light, Hydaelyn doesn't have the same excuse of being too weak when that was the first shard to fall.

Seems like the void and voidsent still need to exist to some extent just based on the RPR job alone.

As for the Garleans, I got nothing other than maybe them studying technology on the moon will eventually lead to a reason for us to go back there? Frankly, it feels like the powers that be just wanted to be done with them as a race, as a culture, as even an influence on anything. Hopefully I'm wrong about that, but right now it just looks bad.

Edit: Forgot to mention I was hoping the junior writers would give us grittier storytelling not more comedy. :(

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Edit: Forgot to mention I was hoping the junior writers would give us grittier storytelling not more comedy. :(

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To be fair I found Fourchenault offering the Garleans Sharlayan citizenship so soon after having nearly abandoned them to their fate incredibly hilarious. I must also commend them for dressing up Aymeric as a blue elephant! Now that I've moved my apartment to Ishgard I look forward to seeing him whenever I walk outside to use the marketboard. Do you mean to say that this isn't what you come to FFXIV for?

I was wondering if I made the right decision in skipping the 6.1 msq story and based on comments here and in other places it seems like I did. I was annoyed that I had to do some of the new msq just to unlock the Myths of the Realm raid and then there's that unskippable cutscene.

Not surprised they're still using that form of humour and I dread them going to the 13th and use the same humour over there.

I also heard that Corvos was also handled offscreen and then Nerva.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Well, my current thought process is this: The 13th is essentially the result of a Flood of Darkness, right? So, shouldn't that mean the whole star is a dark version of The Empty on the First?

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In ShB, they explained that original assumptions about the nature of light and dark were reversed: light is stagnation and stasis, while dark is mutation and change. So while the Empty was a result of aether being completely stilled to the point that everything turned to white dust, the Void seems to be a warped and twisted world where everyone and everything has mutated into something grotesque. In 6.1, they also speculate that because the Flood of Light never fully completed on the First, whatever final change or destruction was going to happen never occurred there, unlike on the Thirteenth. So far, it seems like the Thirteenth has shattered into an asteroid belt made of continents floating over a dark abyss.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Wait what? This is something that actually happened? I haven't finished the Role Quests but this isn't a joke? Cause it sounds like a joke...

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It's incredibly aggravating. What really gets me is that Quintus (someone who was in the story for a handful of cutscenes) gets his own unique character model, voice, and a spot in the trailer yet Nerva doesn't have a character model. We only see his blasphemy form. What was the point of bringing him up at all if they were just going to kill him in side content? The story would have been just fine if he had never been mentioned. Talk about a shaggy dog.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

It's incredibly aggravating. What really gets me is that Quintus (someone who was in the story for a handful of cutscenes) gets his own unique character model, voice, and a spot in the trailer yet Nerva doesn't have a character model. We only see his blasphemy form. What was the point of bringing him up at all if they were just going to kill him in side content? The story would have been just fine if he had never been mentioned. Talk about a shaggy dog.

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They did similar with Regula, where even though he featured for a non-trial Weapon fight, they refused to show his form beneath the armour.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

They did similar with Regula, where even though he featured for a non-trial Weapon fight, they refused to show his form beneath the armour.

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It's funny, I was actually saying, "Nerva got the Regula treatment."

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

It's funny, I was actually saying, "Nerva got the Regula treatment."

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I actually asked about Regula's appearance during a number of Live Letter Q&A sessions and the question was picked out three different times. So they weren't unaware that people wanted to see what he looked like, or that Garlemald had its own share of fans.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Do you mean to say that this isn't what you come to FFXIV for?

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Definitely not. :P I loved HW, so it's off-putting (to say the least) to see the characters treated this way. *sigh*

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

So while the Empty was a result of aether being completely stilled to the point that everything turned to white dust, the Void seems to be a warped and twisted world where everyone and everything has mutated into something grotesque.

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Well, in that case the 13th should be beyond hope. One of the points made when treating tempering was that once physical transformation had occurred they couldn't be helped. Plus, if the planet is truly fragmented then there's no star to save anymore either.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

They did similar with Regula, where even though he featured for a non-trial Weapon fight, they refused to show his form beneath the armour.

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To be fair we didn't see Gaius unmasked til 4.3 iirc. Although Nero was seen unmasked in ARR, so very inconsistent.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Definitely not. :P I loved HW, so it's off-putting (to say the least) to see the characters treated this way. *sigh*



Well, in that case the 13th should be beyond hope. One of the points made when treating tempering was that once physical transformation had occurred they couldn't be helped. Plus, if the planet is truly fragmented then there's no star to save anymore either.

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They'd probably need to employ techniques similar to that in Eden, but even that's a slow process, unless you take advantage of the fact that time doesn't flow the same between worlds. I suspect it's in a more dire state, but any lore about its aether being absent is based in the end on measuring instruments that weren't calibrated with the true nature of darkness being understood, leaving it wide open for them to say that aether's been there all along. I notice in their recent exposition of the lore on the Void they don't bring up that finding of the NOAH expedition, that the Void lacks aether, and instead focus on it being corrupted by an excess of darkness. I doubt they'll move towards it being restored - I think the Void stuff is just to resolve that plot thread and pave the way for voyaging to other Reflections. I may be wrong, but that's the impression I have.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

They'd probably need to employ techniques similar to that in Eden, but even that's a slow process, unless you take advantage of the fact that time doesn't flow the same between worlds. I suspect it's in a more dire state, but any lore about its aether being absent is based in the end on measuring instruments that weren't calibrated with the true nature of darkness being understood, leaving it wide open for them to say that aether's been there all along. I notice in their recent exposition of the lore on the Void they don't bring up that finding of the NOAH expedition, that the Void lacks aether, and instead focus on it being corrupted by an excess of darkness. I doubt they'll move towards it being restored - I think the Void stuff is just to resolve that plot thread and pave the way for voyaging to other Reflections. I may be wrong, but that's the impression I have.

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I'm not sure how the "time flows differently" rule works, either. Almost a decade had passed between Urianger being pulled into the first and the WOL's arrival, but ever since then, it seems like the two now move at a 1:1 ratio. Otherwise, it'd be funny to pop back over and Runar was now an elderly man with grandkids while a middle-aged Ryne and Gaia were cohabitating as life-partners.

Maybe that has something to do with the WOL still being able to go back and forth, but the point remains.

Eden is more side content I haven't done, so unfortunately those references are lost on me as well. I hate this direction they've gone where you have to have done raid content to have a full understanding of what's happening in the MSQ. This seems to have started when Ishikawa took over writing?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Eden is more side content I haven't done, so unfortunately those references are lost on me as well. I hate this direction they've gone where you have to have done raid content to have a full understanding of what's happening in the MSQ. This seems to have started when Ishikawa took over writing?

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Short explanation: Gaia is a sundered Ancient and formerly the Ascian known as Loghrif killed by Ardbert and crew. She has now reincarnated as Ryne's Oracle of Darkness counterpart and best "gal pal".

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Short explanation: Gaia is a sundered Ancient and formerly the Ascian known as Loghrif killed by Ardbert and crew. She has now reincarnated as Ryne's Oracle of Darkness counterpart and best "gal pal".

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Not to mention Eden itself being the Ascian Mitron, Loghrif's lover. Real name: Artemis.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Eden is more side content I haven't done, so unfortunately those references are lost on me as well. I hate this direction they've gone where you have to have done raid content to have a full understanding of what's happening in the MSQ. This seems to have started when Ishikawa took over writing?

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Hmm, I'd say finishing the Coils of Bahamut was pretty relevant to the MSQ and that was the very start of the game. Maybe Alexander would be the least relevant directly(?), but Omega was also quite important to the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

I'm not sure how the "time flows differently" rule works, either. Almost a decade had passed between Urianger being pulled into the first and the WOL's arrival

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It was five years from Thancred's arrival and three from Urianger and Y'Shtola's arrival, if I remember correctly.

The First and Source conveniently have a synchronised flow of time for the moment.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Definitely not. :P I loved HW, so it's off-putting (to say the least) to see the characters treated this way. *sigh*



Well, in that case the 13th should be beyond hope. One of the points made when treating tempering was that once physical transformation had occurred they couldn't be helped. Plus, if the planet is truly fragmented then there's no star to save anymore either.

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You'd think so, but EW establishes that anything is possible with hope and writing

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Well, in that case the 13th should be beyond hope. One of the points made when treating tempering was that once physical transformation had occurred they couldn't be helped. Plus, if the planet is truly fragmented then there's no star to save anymore either.

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Considering how quickly we transitioned from being mostly clueless against primals into figuring out a cure for tempering, learning how to bypass corruption of aether from basically all sources, and nipping the primal issue in the bud once and for all by uniting the entire world in an orgy of good vibes, Its only a matter of time until our scions pull a solution out of their ass for this one too lol. Also dynamis is a thing now and can do whatever the plot demands of it, so...

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Eden is more side content I haven't done, so unfortunately those references are lost on me as well. I hate this direction they've gone where you have to have done raid content to have a full understanding of what's happening in the MSQ. This seems to have started when Ishikawa took over writing?

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The Binding Coils is more important to the story then like 95 percent of the ARR MSQ, lmao.

For my part, I actually mostly enjoyed the 6.1 MSQ and am interested in where it's going, but predictably, I was cracking nonstop jokes in chat about "What? Y'shtola lets a familiar die to further her own interests? Unacceptable. Sunder this cat!" "What? Vrtra wants to eliminate the suffering of the people of Thavnair? Sunder this dragon!" "Huh? Thavnair is encouraging Vrtra to try to restore a past with his sister instead of just accepting it and moving on? Sunder this country!"

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Originally Posted by Brinne

For my part, I actually mostly enjoyed the 6.1 MSQ and am interested in where it's going, but predictably, I was cracking nonstop jokes in chat about "What? Y'shtola lets a familiar die to further her own interests? Unacceptable. Sunder this cat!" "What? Vrtra wants to eliminate the suffering of the people of Thavnair? Sunder this dragon!" "Huh? Thavnair is encouraging Vrtra to try to restore a past with his sister instead of just accepting it and moving on? Sunder this country!"

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What were your thoughts on this BTW?

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Originally Posted by Brinne

For my part, I actually mostly enjoyed the 6.1 MSQ and am interested in where it's going, but predictably, I was cracking nonstop jokes in chat about "What? Y'shtola lets a familiar die to further her own interests? Unacceptable. Sunder this cat!" "What? Vrtra wants to eliminate the suffering of the people of Thavnair? Sunder this dragon!" "Huh? Thavnair is encouraging Vrtra to try to restore a past with his sister instead of just accepting it and moving on? Sunder this country!"

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See, this is what happens when we kill the one thing who has been keeping us in line this whole time. Outrageous abuse of familiars, wanting to minimize suffering, actually mourning the past. For shame. Headed straight for the Plenty, they are.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Considering how quickly we transitioned from being mostly clueless against primals into figuring out a cure for tempering, learning how to bypass corruption of aether from basically all sources, and nipping the primal issue in the bud once and for all by uniting the entire world in an orgy of good vibes, Its only a matter of time until our scions pull a solution out of their ass for this one too lol. Also dynamis is a thing now and can do whatever the plot demands of it, so...

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"Quickly"????? it took nearly ten years of real life storytelling time for that plot point to be resolved.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

"Quickly"????? it took nearly ten years of real life storytelling time for that plot point to be resolved.

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More like two, maybe three patches actually. I'm specifically referring to the time period between Alisaie creating Angelo to cure Halric, to the creation of the warding scales.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

What were your thoughts on this BTW?

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Hysterical laughter, mostly.

All right, in seriousness, of course my eyes rolled out of the back of my head, but it's also not really much beyond what I was expecting. As we've discussed, regardless of the problems with her character, Venat is very popular and has a lot of fans, so they're not going to go full-in on "what a terrible person" - in a general sense, yes, she's probably going to be treated positively when she's brought up. Also, the .1 patch is generally too early for the MSQ writing to take in fan feedback - I think they've mentioned the .1 patch stuff is basically established by the time the expac is rolled out, and IIRC, it took until about 5.2 for Shadowbringers's patch writing to really blatantly jump full-force onto the Emet-Selch train. That being said, LMAO.

What was most telling to me, honestly? Emet-Selch getting direct invocations and flashbacks from the MSQ, along with the heavy implication that the WoL is specifically setting out to honor his list of tasks - while Venat herself doesn't actually get mentioned or discussed once. I think in all the content she's only brought up as Hydaelyn in that brief red herring in the Alliance Raid. The Lodestone side story future may in fact at hand, my friends.

And hey, recounting of events aside, it's not technically inaccurate about Venat's character - she did, in fact, do everything out of "love." It's just that, um, her definition of "love" is vastly, vastly different from my own. Also sort of fun how the codex entry for the "Final Days" just completely skips over the Sundering, huh? Mankind selflessly sacrificed half its number to stop the Final Days--mumble mumble something something--AND THEN IT HAPPENED AGAIN! SOMEHOW! OH NO!

Yeah, I thought it glossed over some key aspects a little too much for my liking. While she's popular, they should at least grapple with what she did and not mince words about what sundering means in this context. Not expecting them to say she's a terrible person, but this to me reads as a hagiography, and it moves a little too fast in taking possibilities or probabilities and treating them as inevitabilities. Reading between the lines, it is more or less saying she's using the calamities to test man, but it's so focused on inundating the reader with an account of her "love" that you could be forgiven for missing that. Certainly agree that the definition of love is a debatable one.

I also thought it was more than a smidgen unfair to Zodiark, to cast him off as the instantiation of some "ill-fated wish", as opposed to the being that the star and its inhabitants can thank for their continued existence. I think at this point I'm going to step back from the game and just take the stance of an observer with what each patch is bringing. If the short stories and future patches do show measurable improvement, great, but I'm not going in with the expectation of it.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I also thought it was more than a smidgen unfair to Zodiark, to cast him off as the instantiation of some "ill-fated wish", as opposed to the being that the star and its inhabitants can thank for their continued existence. I think at this point I'm going to step back from the game and just take the stance of an observer with what each patch is bringing. If the short stories and future patches do show measurable improvement, great, but I'm not going in with the expectation of it.

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Oh, yeah, that was by far the most egregious part of it, and a very fun rerun of "throw the Ancients under the bus to prop up Hydaelyn, because our primary aim is justifying her." Which, again, is pretty LMAO when out of the other side of the mouth they're going on about how selfless and good the Ancients were in a different codex entry. It's just repeating what EW already did - likewise with the hammering on and on about her love, how she meant well, she beat mankind into the ground because she BELIEVED in them, that they could TAKE it, etc, etc. Like I said to Rulakir a long time ago, I can't blame anyone for taking a step back or finding the writing choices around Hydaelyn and the Ancients basically unforgivable - they're really bad.

I dunno, as much as I like Emet I wouldn't want a potential codex entry to describe his darker actions in fluffy terminology. You could describe the formation of Garlemald and the Allagan Empire as a 'community building project' which sounds nice and is technically correct but it wouldn't really do his character justice in the same way that downplaying the Sundering and its effects doesn't align with Venat on any meaningful level.

I don't factor in character popularity to the same degree, either. Sylvanas was exceedingly popular in WoW and her continued presence in the story - as well as the constant downplaying of her various misdeeds - contributed heavily to turning people off of that game's ongoing story.

The other elephant in the room is that the codex will be cited as 'mommy did nothing wrong' and fuel more discussion about how the Ancients were stupid and Zodiark was a 'blood god'. Which is deceptive framing and not in alignment with the actual story being told.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The other elephant in the room is that the codex will be cited as 'mommy did nothing wrong' and fuel more discussion about how the Ancients were stupid and Zodiark was a 'blood god'. Which is deceptive framing and not in alignment with the actual story being told.

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More of the usual, anyway. I don't think anyone's opinion would actually be swayed by the codex entry, as much as it sounds like Krile's in-universe fanfiction as she scribbles down her and Hydaelyn holding hands in crayon. Anyone who doesn't pay attention to that stuff will continue to not pay attention, or even care. Anyone who's hated the Ancients since their introduction will nod and agree with the entry. Anyone who likes them will continue to inhale vast amounts of copium and despairium, like me!

I'm sorry, Elidibus, my sweet moon prince. We failed you... you were right. Emet sold out for fanservice.

The language in the codex just sounds abusive, frankly. It's a combination of "I love you so much that's why I hurt you", "this hurts me more than it hurts you", and "look what you made me do!"

There was a thread on Reddit today talking about what Azem was doing during the Final Days and some people still insist that they would've been working with Venat who would've told them everything. I may be biased AF, but where in the game would anyone get that impression? Both Ardbert and the WoL had unwavering loyalty to their world and were willing to throw others under the bus to save it. Plus, ask if Hydaelyn had told the WoL that she needed to sunder the world again for its own good if the WoL would accept that and help or fight her tooth and nail (with the Scions in the background giving a grandiose speech about being in charge of their own destiny)? Cause there's your answer as to what Azem would've done. I suspect she knew that and didn't tell Azem anything, especially as there'd be no point in her followers soliciting Azem if they knew she'd spoken to them.

Edit: I keep forgetting to mention if you haven't seen the new Lahabrea solo duty it's interesting. He basically effortlessly KOs the WoL, but then Hydaelyn revives you and gives you a power up to be able to defeat him. Obviously, I'm not keen on the Hydaelyn part, but I do like that they're consistent now with the WoL being easily defeated by the unsundered without significant assistance from outsiders.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Oh, yeah, that was by far the most egregious part of it, and a very fun rerun of "throw the Ancients under the bus to prop up Hydaelyn, because our primary aim is justifying her." Which, again, is pretty LMAO when out of the other side of the mouth they're going on about how selfless and good the Ancients were in a different codex entry. It's just repeating what EW already did - likewise with the hammering on and on about her love, how she meant well, she beat mankind into the ground because she BELIEVED in them, that they could TAKE it, etc, etc. Like I said to Rulakir a long time ago, I can't blame anyone for taking a step back or finding the writing choices around Hydaelyn and the Ancients basically unforgivable - they're really bad.

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Yeah, there's a lot of flowery language used to sort of soften the blow of what she's done. its a shame too cuz I would've loved if they leaned into her "love" being acknowledged as more of an unhealthy obsession.

I'm a bit late to the discussion about what we would've done, but If I had the opportunity to tweak the narrative while doing the absolute bare minimum, aside from having her memory wiped in Kitsis shortly after marking Meteion to avoid the mess that caused, I think I would've preferred if Venat's strange actions had instead been attributed to her transformation into Hydaelyn instead of her ancient self, with Venat's admiration of mankind's ability to overcome any form of adversity being warped and perverted into the belief that only through adversity can mankind hope to achieve anything. In this scenario, Venat's desire to become a primal in order to protect the natural life on Etheirys would result in Hydaelyn purposely sundering the world not out of love, but the instinct to prove to herself that nothing is impossible for us.

When she's confronted about the Meteion's coordinates, she would state she has no memory of marking her and thus, wouldn't know where she is. But in a callback to Montichaigne's lecture, she mentions that perhaps in death she would remember. However, recognizing that her life now serves as an obstacle in your path, a contradiction is formed. Her instincts would kick in again and she would challenge you to a death battle, demanding that you prove to her how much the world means to you and if you're conviction is strong enough to take her life for it. She loses, remembers everything as she fades away, maybe cries a bit about how much of a monster she's become, and at this point you would have the opportunity to console her as it truly wouldn't have been her intention to cause SUCH DEVASTATION! She commends you for figuring out the truth of the final days when no one else could and sends you off clinging to hope that her actions might've helped a bit and she didn't screw things up too badly.

I feel something like this would've allowed for Venat to remain a truly sympathetic character and frame her actions as a compulsion that couldn't be helped rather than something that absolutely needed to be done, and would justify the jarring battle we had against her since there currently is no reason why the spar to the death needed to exist. what exactly would've happened if we lost? We still needed the coordinates to confront meteion, was she just gunna force us to use the moon ship?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

The language in the codex just sounds abusive, frankly. It's a combination of "I love you so much that's why I hurt you", "this hurts me more than it hurts you", and "look what you made me do!"

There was a thread on Reddit today talking about what Azem was doing during the Final Days and some people still insist that they would've been working with Venat who would've told them everything. I may be biased AF, but where in the game would anyone get that impression? Both Ardbert and the WoL had unwavering loyalty to their world and were willing to throw others under the bus to save it. Plus, ask if Hydaelyn had told the WoL that she needed to sunder the world again for its own good if the WoL would accept that and help or fight her tooth and nail (with the Scions in the background giving a grandiose speech about being in charge of their own destiny)? Cause there's your answer as to what Azem would've done. I suspect she knew that and didn't tell Azem anything, especially as there'd be no point in her followers soliciting Azem if they knew she'd spoken to them.

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The response to this question in the LL was so ridiculous. If they have a plan for what Azem was canonically doing during the Final Days then just say "we can't speak about it, you'll find out later.". Saying "whatever you would be doing is what they would be doing" is like ????!!. Well, if Venat had clued me in on her grand plans, I wouldn't be allowing some lunatic to destroy the world and everyone I love because of her own, subjective reasons and would have fought her to the death. Is that how Azem died? So are you gonna write a new story for me because that's what my Azem would be doing?

And assuming that Azem knew nothing, just like everyone else, and that the reason for the split from the Convocation was because they disapproved of Zodiark being the answer, then they'd be out there trying to find an alternative way to save their world. But hey, no matter what I think my Azem would be doing, the writers will surely correct my wayward beliefs and tell me exactly what she was doing and how she was feeling while doing it somewhere down the line.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

There was a thread on Reddit today talking about what Azem was doing during the Final Days and some people still insist that they would've been working with Venat who would've told them everything.

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Wouldn't the fact that we're currently sundered imply that Azem didn't actually join them? The rest of her followers were consumed by Hydaelyn. Also, there's already dialogue that implies Azem ghosted everyone. "I had hoped that the defector, at least, would side with us, but I regret to report our overtures have gone unanswered."

Also I might be behind the curve, but upon reviewing that clip, I cant help but notice there's 12 Ancients just standing there with her...

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Also I might be behind the curve, but upon reviewing that clip, I cant help but notice there's 12 Ancients just standing there with her...

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Yep, assuming you're making the connection between twelve followers and "The Twelve", it's been speculation ever since that scene popped up in ShB. Yoshida said that their souls were entirely consumed by the creation of Hydaelyn, though, so if they are the gods then maybe they were created by her as some sort of weird "tribute".